Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

regen makes no sense at the speeds you’re traveling at.

If you're going up and down mountains, have lots of stop and go etc, it can really extend range.

In the Grin Tech Simulator, the GMAC appears to be much more efficient during acceleration GMAC-Leaf Acceleration, but the Leaf Motor is better while cruising at the same speed (not just top speed) GMAC-Leaf 30km/h Cruising.

A geared motor typically has an advantage during acceleration in efficiency, but has much lower efficiency during cruise due to gear friction.

I've owned both and helped popularize the MAC on the forum. The power potential of the leafmotor is insane compared to the MAC. The overall efficiency is significantly better.

I am considering using a 100/250 VESC and building a 20s3p battery with Samsung INR21700-50S cells. I'm not sure if this is overkill or a good idea. I think it's possible to be done and while I don't need that much power, it would be fun to have it.

On what winding? hopefully not the default 4T - you'll need a lot more amps than said pack could provide.

In the end, it seems like I need to decide between a fun and overpowered bike, which brings more cost and complexity or a GMAC with a smaller battery and controller that will do the job, make the bike easier to build and much lighter, but won't have that "wow" factor and won't be very special and extraordinary.

GMAC 8T is a pretty damn nice motor on 35-40A and i used to run mine at 28-37mph. A basic 20AH 48v or 52v battery. The achilles heel is it's poor ability to shed heat; means it can't do much more than 30mph ( 48kph ) continuous. So it's often shy of enough heat shedding ability to confidently take the car lane in situations where the Leaf could do that all day.
 
If you're going up and down mountains, have lots of stop and go etc, it can really extend range.
He has to spend a bit to get a controller that regens down below 5 mph though. The two controllers I used regen down to 7 mph and 4mph then cutout, but not much flowing back to the battery at those speed and no braking below.
 
If you don't need the full power the leaf can produce ( >100kph ) then the next step down would be either the 30mm wide 1000w rated leaf motor, or Grin's RH212, which is a touch lighter.

Both motors produce MAC like power, are a little lighter, but don't have the severe thermal handicap of the MAC.

The dual Shengyi setup would be more efficient than either and about the same weight.
 
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He has to spend a bit to get a controller that regens down below 5 mph though. The two controllers I used regen down to 7 mph and 4mph then cutout, but not much flowing back to the battery at those speed and no braking below.

I totally love the regen braking on my VESC, it's better than any ebike controller i've tried, including the phaserunner. it's even good in sensorless mode. It's completely replaced my rear mechanical brake in function. It really helps with range in my local conditions that have a lot of hill climbing and stop 'n go at high speeds.
 
I totally love the regen braking on my VESC, it's better than any ebike controller i've tried, including the phaserunner. it's even good in sensorless mode. It's completely replaced my rear mechanical brake in function. It really helps with range in my local conditions that have a lot of hill climbing and stop 'n go at high speeds.
Torture. I miss regen.
 
The dual sx1 with helical gears would be cool. in a trike, but can adapt hoops to allow mounting especially as a build for brother who cannot pedal, so electric only. I did notice Leaf has side mount motors which would simplify. The stall speed on DD has been a concern vs geared hub.
 
On what winding? hopefully not the default 4T - you'll need a lot more amps than said pack could provide.
Why? One cell is capable of a 35A discharge, and I will have three in parallel. Won't a peak of 105 battery amps be enough?

Or do you mean Wh? The trip analyzer indicates that I need an average of no more than 200Wh at a top speed of 40 km/h for my daily use, assuming I pedal with 100W. And I will have 72V * 3 x 5Ah = 1080Wh.

5T vs 4T
At 36 km/h, the 5T is 1% more efficient, resulting in a range of 90 km instead of 89 km with the 4T.
 
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There's NO free lunch guys. You can tout your leaf or Gmac all you wish, but without including ALL the benefits and disadvantages of the motor chosen, you're only fooling yourself and everyone following this thread.
You start with a pedal powered vehicle with a geometry optimized for 15-20 mph. Then add a motor which could easily double the speed. You then place that additional mass in the worse possible place... the rear wheel. And you you expect your 30-40mph creation to be safe & predictable mingling with 2 ton idiots?
 
You start with a pedal powered vehicle with a geometry optimized for 15-20 mph. Then add a motor which could easily double the speed. You then place that additional mass in the worse possible place... the rear wheel. And you you expect your 30-40mph creation to be safe & predictable mingling with 2 ton idiots?

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Why? One cell is capable of a 35A discharge, and I will have three in parallel. Won't a peak of 105 battery amps be enough?

You never want to run your cell at the maximum advertised discharge rate. That's where you make just barely enough heat to not damage/blow up the cell. This is the single cell limit for heat, not the quality of output. You need a ton of thermal headroom in an actual battery pack when you've got 100 cells cooking next to each other. Take that maximum discharge figure and cut it into a third basically.

Here's a discharge graph of that cell. Performance below 10A is pretty stout for a high-ish energy cell,
but during a 30A load on a single cell you can expect a 50.4v battery to drop down to 46.2v which is pretty saggy. You're also turning ~10% of your battery's energy to heat at that point if you do it continuously.

And the worst part is you're missing ~10% of your power at the motor.

So while you can do it, expect a quite short range, battery life, and rapidly increasing sag as the battery ages. when running a high power motor like this. You really want more cells in parallels for best enjoyment and reliability ( try 5P minimum )

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You then place that additional mass in the worse possible place... the rear wheel.

Where did you get the idea that the rear wheel is the "worst possible place" to bear weight? Regular bikes, the kind proven over generations to work best overall, carry between 2/3 and 3/4 of their weight on the rear wheel. That's one of the things that allows them to stop so hard without tipping up (which rarely happens; most folks' "my bike turned over!" tales are due to them flopping against the bars like meat puppets).

My two >30mph bikes have very different weight distribution. One has two hub motors, traditional road bike geometry, and much more weight on the front wheel. It's fun but terrifying. It rides heavily but pleasantly enough unpowered, but it gets feisty and jumpy when the speed is turned up past 30 mph. It feels much faster than that sounds.

The other has unusually slack angles and feet forward geometry, made more so by an 80mm suspension fork taking the place of a non suspension corrected fork. It has a 35 ish pound battery, plus a fairly heavy pannier on the rear rack most of the time. It bears very little static load on the front wheel. But at speed, it all makes sense, like a cruiser motorcycle with similar layout and weight distribution. I can stop hard without lifting or even skidding the rear wheel. It reacts predictably to surface bumps and upsets. At city street speed, it handles about like I want it to, stably but promptly. It's a terrible ride without motor power, though, with floppy steering and drunken maneuvering.

I tell people all the time who are planning an e-bike conversion that a good bike they like already isn't usually a good bike for converting to electric power. Heavy, stiff, slack angled, rear-weighted, are all virtues for an e-bike when they're usually not for a pedal bike.
 
Heavy, stiff, slack angled, rear-weighted, are all virtues for an e-bike when they're usually not for a pedal bike.

If center of gravity is high then yes the center of gravity must also be moved rearward to compensate.

But it is a bad idea to have a high center of gravity on a street bike.
 
I like as big of a wheelbase as i can get and my battery weight pushed as far forward as possible. The resulting handling is usually quite good, but not as good as a mid drive.

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Take that maximum discharge figure and cut it into a third basically.

Okay, you're right - those are maximum and undesirably high currents.

Let's assume that in normal operation I don't have to draw more than 10A per cell. Is that low enough to not harm the battery even in continuous operation?

If so, here are the results I calculated using the motor simulator. All measurements are based on 30A battery current, 72V nominal voltage, with voltage sag from the simulator accounted for and no human power.

Max speed: 58 km/h (36 mph)

Acceleration:

What is considered normal acceleration? My car does 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) in 10 seconds, which means 10 km/h/s (6.2 mph/s). If that is the top acceleration, maybe 5 km/h/s (3.1 mph/s) is okay for normal driving. Does that sound right?

At the same time, if we assume my average target speed is 40 km/h (24.9 mph), according to the simulator, at that speed, the battery current is only 10A. That means only 3-4A per cell.

What is wrong with my calculations? 😅😅


If you don't need the full power the leaf can produce ( >100kph ) then the next step down would be either the 30mm wide 1000w rated leaf motor, or Grin's RH212, which is a touch lighter.
What would be the advantage of a smaller motor, like the H212, beyond the weight - 6.3 kg vs. 7.35 kg and the OLD - 136 mm vs. 137 mm or even more for the Leaf cassette version?

It seems the Leaf motor beats the H212 in efficiency by 1-2% at:

And the H212 has only a small advantage in acceleration efficiency.

Hey and thank you for your detailed answers and explanations!
 
What is considered normal acceleration? My car does 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) in 10 seconds, which means 10 km/h/s (6.2 mph/s). If that is the top acceleration, maybe 5 km/h/s (3.1 mph/s) is okay for normal driving. Does that sound right?

At the same time, if we assume my average target speed is 40 km/h (24.9 mph), according to the simulator, at that speed, the battery current is only 10A. That means only 3-4A per cell.

What is wrong with my calculations? 😅😅
5kph/s is totally usable on flat ground... from a stop on a grade >5% though, I'd wish for a bit more oomph...

Nothing's "wrong" with your calculation, just that that's the steady-state consumption. Many people accelerate with full throttle to get to speed faster, and with your 100A battery current limit, you'll see the tremendous current from a stop:

leaf_highcurrent.png

Hope you have a stout set of torque arms, great tires, great suspension, and a long wheelbase to deal with that much torque! May need to do something about the size of the phase wiring too...
 
Are the Leaf motor’s available in the Grin lists, vs are folks entering the data under custom motor? I figure I am missing an easy button somewhere.
 
Thanks. For some reason I always have trouble with Grin’s site loading and switching pages. I click the all motors and nothing shows up, but then if I go into custom motors and change a few settings and go back to list, Leaf and Mac 12T are there….

sent a few questions to leaf. It looks like as the motors go up in power the magnet stacks get wider? Or just housing? I did notice on leafmotor vs leafbike, they advertise new for 2024 wider magnet stacks, but who knows,

thanks for the responses
 
If you don't need the full power the leaf can produce ( >100kph ) then the next step down would be either the 30mm wide 1000w rated leaf motor, or Grin's RH212, which is a touch lighter.

Both motors produce MAC like power, are a little lighter, but don't have the severe thermal handicap of the MAC.

The dual Shengyi setup would be more efficient than either and about the same weight.
Neptronix gave some good advice above but even if you don't need the power the Leaf can deliver, I'd still go with it before I would go with a motor that has a narrower stator because the Leaf will be less likely to over heat.

I tried one of the 30mm stator motors via Amazon and it worked OK but it got hot and stayed hot every time I used it.

That said, there are applications where a narrower/lighter motor is better but they are few and far between.
 
If you don't need the full power the leaf can produce ( >100kph ) then the next step down would be either the 30mm wide 1000w rated leaf motor, or Grin's RH212, which is a touch lighter.

Both motors produce MAC like power, are a little lighter, but don't have the severe thermal handicap of the MAC.

The dual Shengyi setup would be more efficient than either and about the same weight.

Some power consumption figures for various types of bikes to add to the discussion (from highest to lowest power consumption using default tire configuration provided by calculator):


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That is a pretty big swing in power consumption. Too bad road bikes only very rarely come in 135mm (re: the road bike world on a mass scale went from 130mm (e.g. Ultegra 6800 11 speed --->https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/ultegra-6800.html ) straight to 142mm x 12mm thru axle (e.g. Ultegra 8000 11 speed-->https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/ultegra-r8000.html) .
 
That is a pretty big swing in power consumption.

It's mostly due to aerodynamic differences in rider position for the various bikes you selected. Choose the same bike, same weight, same rider position for the different tires and you'll find out how much difference the tires make. It's significant, but not nearly as extreme as the differences in aerodynamics.

This is relevant to us because most of us need tougher tires than recreational or sport riders would use.

It's plausible to put an aggressively aero riding position on an e-bike, but when most of your power isn't from pedals, that can get foolishly uncomfortable in a hurry.

For what it's worth, 19 out of 20 of us here use bikes that either correspond to "roadster" settings, or are draggier yet.
 
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I want to find an adapter or wire with the correct connectors to connect my ring terminal phase wires on my Leaf motor to the 4mm female bullet connectors on my controller.

Has anybody seen or know where I can find such an adapter or wire...with ring terminals on one end and 4mm male bullet connectors on the other (to plug into the 4mm female bullet connectors on my controller)...preferably 10 AWG but I could use 12 AWG?

Thanks for any help.
 
It's mostly due to aerodynamic differences in rider position for the various bikes you selected. Choose the same bike, same weight, same rider position for the different tires and you'll find out how much difference the tires make. It's significant, but not nearly as extreme as the differences in aerodynamics.

This is relevant to us because most of us need tougher tires than recreational or sport riders would use.

It's plausible to put an aggressively aero riding position on an e-bike, but when most of your power isn't from pedals, that can get foolishly uncomfortable in a hurry.

For what it's worth, 19 out of 20 of us here use bikes that either correspond to "roadster" settings, or are draggier yet.
This is starkly illustrated in the difference in efficiency between two of my builds when I had identical motor/controller/battery setups in them at different times and places.

70 lb DB mountainbike w/ full suspension, using a Leafbike 1500W 4T with a single Greenway 46.8V 15.6AH LiIon battery pack, Phaserunner controller, Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour 26x1.75" rear tire, WTB Tyrannoraptor 25.5x2.5" front tire, CA3 restricted to 750W, torque-sensing PAS through FAG torque sensor(yes, it's GAY because of it's long 127mm BB spindle length, but it is what was available and works...):
-30 mph, moderate pedaling effort: ~17-20 Wh/mile, 30-40 miles range
-30 mph, no pedaling effort, throttle only: ~28-35 Wh/mile, 20-25 miles range
-37 mph top speed with hard pedaling effort and 750W max power input to motor
-30 mph top speed with no pedaling effort, throttle only)
-25 mph top speed pedal only, cogging torque losses cancelled by controller

82 lb KMX-based velomobile w/ front suspension, using a Leafbike 1500W 4T with a single Greenway 46.8V 15.6AH LiIon battery pack, Phaserunner controller, Schwalbe Marathon Plus tour 26x1.75" rear tire, Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard 20x1.5" front tires, CA3 restricted to 1500W, cadence-sensing PAS through Sempu(which never worked correctly as a torque sensor, but its 115mm spindle length played nice with my front mech):
-30 mph, moderate pedaling effort: ~7-8 Wh/mile, 85-100 miles range
-30 mph, no pedaling effort(throttle only): ~12-14 Wh/mile, 50-60 miles range
-46 mph top speed with hard pedaling effort and ~1500W max power input to motor(although drew ~600-700W at this speed)
-43 mph top speed with no pedaling effort(throttle only)
-35 mph top speed pedal only, cogging torque losses present and battery shut off

When I added a second Greenway pack in parallel for the velomobile and increased weight to 91 lbs and power eventually to 3 kW, it was able to get up to 50 mph with hard pedaling and had no problem cruising at a top speed of roughly 45 mph on throttle-only while drawing 1 kW or so. This top speed was very obviously voltage-limited. The extra battery pack in parallel kept the voltage drop down and allowed a small gain in top speed as a result. Range was a consistent 150-200 miles at cruising speeds of 30-35 mph with light to moderate pedaling effort.

I briefly tried the aforementioned 4T 26" motor in the velo at 10kW with hubsink, ferrofluid, an ASI BAC4000, and 46.8V 33.6AH Molicel P42A pack. Top speed was unchanged vs the 3 kW peak Greenway pack, but acceleration was very violent.

I ordered my 2nd 1500W Leafbike motor in a 20" wheel instead of a 26", and as a 3T instead of a 4T, but run at 10kW and using that same 46.8V 33.6AH Molicel P42A pack and the hubsink transferred over from the 26" wheel. I used a 20x1.5" Schwalbe Marathon Plus in each wheel. It was dangerous to accelerate at full power with 0-30 mph in about 2.5 seconds and top speed was still 50 mph despite the smaller drive wheel. The smaller drive wheel also caused ground clearance issues with the shell(I added a rear suspension). The rear tire quickly lost its tread. I then tried the rear wheel with an upgraded rim and Mitas MC2 16x2.25" DOT tire, and eventually doing this to the two front wheels as well, which gave slightly more ground clearance, about 1/2" more. It wasn't enough. I removed the body shell soon after. It was originally designed with the 26" wheel in mind, and the 20" bike or 16" moto wheel out back, swinging on a suspension, caused issues between the shell and rear wheel over deep potholes, as well as unwanted scraping f the tail with the ground that didn't happen with a 26" wheel.

With a reconfigured 72V 25.2AH Molicel P42A pack using all the same cells and then some more, I ran it with the body taken off. It was more than a bit nuts thanks to losing about 20 lbs and having more voltage. I never topped it out like that because with the body shell off the trike it felt a LOT more dangerous over 40 mph or so than with the shell. With the shell, it felt safe, even though the protection provided was mostly illusory. Without the shell, it makes me very confident of my impending death, or at the very least, my wallet and keys falling out of my pockets and landing in the street. I'm confident as a bare naked trike, it would probably have done at least 60 mph like this, but that aero drag at such a speed would have quickly have made that motor overheat.

I didn't have access to a wind tunnel or use any CFD software when I designed the shell, so a lot of room for improvement exists regarding the drag of my velomobile. Which is why it's apart and why I'm working on a new body shell for it, aside from the roll cage and AWD upgrade, and new wheels/tires/full suspension/hydraulic brakes/ect. Because of aerodynamic improvements, I expect when ready, energy consumption will greatly decrease over the previous iteration, in spite of being prepped for 60+ mph cruising, having a hubmotor in each wheel, having DOT wheels/tires, and weighing upwards of 120 lbs. And I still expect, using nothing but my own legs, to be able to maintain 25+ mph cruising speeds and sprint to 35+ mph top speeds with the controllers being used to have the cogging torque cancelled, and maybe bicycle-like pedaling speeds with a disabled battery and powering through the cogging torque losses of all three motors. Using all three motors including a Leafbike 1500W 3T rear powered by an ASI BAC4000 with field weakening, x2 Grin All-Axle 3T up front each powered by a Phaserunner, each motor in a 16x1.5" DOT rim with 16x2.25" Mitas MC2 tire, all run by a 72V 25.2AH pack of Molicel P42A LiIon batteries, I expect that it will out-accelerate most new cars to 60 mph and reach over 80 mph, this top speed again voltage limited, because the damned thing might have 20 kW under that setup, or even more when I upgrade the front controllers to something better. Range at 30 mph could end up at over 300 miles and range at 60 mph could still be 100+, regardless of whether I'm pedaling or not. In most jurisdictions, I can only legally operate it at 28 mph/750W of assist, so real usable range would probably be ICE car-like.

The mountainbike will get a set of fairings, but I don't expect to cut drag by more than 1/3. That is still valuable, as it means pedaling provides an increasing proportion of the vehicle's thrust at a given cruising speed in torque-assist PAS mode as efficiency increases and power requirements decrease. So the new range will be more than inversely proportional to drag as a result, range and drag relative to each other before and after the modifications. Range at 30 mph with pedaling might double for the mountainbike on a similar sized battery thanks to said faring, pedal input effort being a constant quantity between the two iterations. But my new battery for this bike will be slightly smaller than the Greenway pack. I plan to have a continuous power of 1,500W and will set that as my limit via CA3. I expect 40-ish mph throttle only with the aero improved and 1500W available. Maybe 50 miles range at 30 mph with light pedaling effort on a smaller 46.8V 13.2AH custom pack, again once the aero work is done.

We shall see.
 
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