Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[ZeroEm]

Is it not easier to just buy a moped and glue peddles on it. Where is " Balmorhea", we need some balance. So how many here peddle at 30+ mph with a moped wheel? How many miles, i'm thinking sign up for tour de france.

 

[goatman]

first time ever, a cop pulled me over yesterday to see what im driving on "our" roads and then made sure i had pedals and to call my trike a "death-trap", he was a nice cop though and laughed when i pointed out that i have a roll cage

 

[ZeroEm]

"death-trap"

above 35 mph is not safe, if in doubt watch the news and let me know how many die below 35 mph or 56 kph.

What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.

 

[The Toecutter]

Is it not easier to just buy a moped and glue peddles on it. Where is " Balmorhea", we need some balance. So how many here peddle at 30+ mph with a moped wheel? How many miles, i'm thinking sign up for tour de france.

A moped with pedals on it would legally be defined as a moped, requiring a license, registration, and insurance, defeating the purpose entirely for my use case. It also wouldn't be nearly as efficient as what I'm building due to the mass and drag, nor provide weather protection, nor be able to carry as much stuff. It would be a downgrade.

I don't have a moped wheel yet, but I exceed 30 mph on a daily basis, can reach just a few mph shy of 40 on flat ground in a sprint, have been over 50 mph downhill, cruise at almost 25 mph on flat ground with rolling averages varying from 13-23 mph depending upon weather, traffic conditions, stop lights, and other factors, and I ride this thing 20-40 miles a day putting 10,000 miles a year on it, with no motor at all.

The motor will mainly be for acceleration, maintaining speed up hills, and adding a few mph to the cruising speed to make 30-35 mph for tens of miles at a time viable. There will also be the occassional random acts of jackassery, when there are no cops lurking about. Without a motor, I cannot hold 30 mph on the flat for more than 2-3 minutes at a time, there are steep hills that I can only go up at 5-6 mph for the same effort it takes to do 30 mph on the flat, and a full on sprint to 37-38 mph will have me worn out for the day.

first time ever, a cop pulled me over yesterday to see what im driving on "our" roads and then made sure i had pedals and to call my trike a "death-trap", he was a nice cop though and laughed when i pointed out that i have a roll cage

Do you have a link to your build? I want to see it!

I've been stopped by cops seven times now in the velo, including yesterday.

I was going downhill at 40+ mph and my trunk started coming open from the road bumps. I pulled into the left hand turn lane and then into a gas station to properly close it. A grey SUV pulled in behind me as I was getting out of my coroplast bodied KMX trike, and then the red and blue lights came on.

The officer fortunately wasn't threatening violence or argumentative(more often than not they are, and one psycho pointed a gun at me and was screaming at me for no reason back in 2018), but told me he received a complaint about an unlicensed vehicle operating on the highway. I let him know that it was unmotorized and was driven by pedals. He took a look at it and asked me questions about it. "How fast does it go?" "Aren't you afraid to ride that?" "How fast is it going up the hill?"

I gave direct answers to his questions as another police SUV pulled up. The cop walked over and said it was a bicycle. The cop in the other SUV exclaimed "He was doing 45 mph!"

As I got into my trike, the officer who got out to ask me questions got back into his SUV. They drove off, with me following them back onto the road.

Here's an outdated pic of what is soon getting a 5T wind Leafbike motor:

https://i.imgur.com/yeS6eGM.jpg

I don't have a camera, so getting pics is rare. It now has a turtledeck, stiffening braces, all gaps sealed up with 3M plastic tape, boots over the suspension arms, among other changes that have impacted the aerodynamics in a positive direction. I still need to get the front wheel farings working properly to where there is no rub. I made some aluminum ones but they added drag since they were too wide, and are thus useless for now, but have some plastic ones that I'm trying to eliminate any possibility of contact with the tire, and which will hopefully be shaped appropriately for drag reduction.

What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.

Indeed. The only close calls I've ever had have been because of cars, usually some idiot texting on their phone.

 

[neptronix]

above 35 mph is not safe, if in doubt watch the news and let me know how many die below 35 mph or 56 kph.

What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.

When you have 40-45mph speed limits and no bike lanes.. and your bike can't hit that speed, the most unsafe thing you can do is become a traffic obstacle in a sea of cars.

If you want a sneak peek of how dangerous this is, get on a 70mph highway during peak traffic and cruise along at say, 40mph and see what happens.

I would bet you'd not repeat the experience.

If my area had bike lanes that didn't randomly appear and disappear, forcing you into 40mph traffic without warning.. i would have not built a bicycle that's capable of doing 45.

Some of us build fast things.. not because we are thrill seekers, but because we live in areas that are designed against bicycle usage but still wanna ride.

 

[The Toecutter]

When you have 40-45mph speed limits and no bike lanes.. and your bike can't hit that speed, the most unsafe thing you can do is become a traffic obstacle in a sea of cars.

If you want a sneak peek of how dangerous this is, get on a 70mph highway during peak traffic and cruise along at say, 40mph and see what happens.

I would bet you'd not repeat the experience.

Agreed. Without a motor, I have to carefully plan any new routes and study them for uphills. Doing 5 mph up a 15% incline with traffic coming from behind at 40 mph is not my idea of a good time. The sidewalks here are worse than the roads, and most of the time, unusable for my vehicle. If I am presented with a 10%+ gradient that is too high for momentum to carry me up on a high-traffic road with high flow of traffic speeds, it is necessary to find some side streets to use as a detour.

With the motor installed, and enough power driving it, doing 30-35 mph up that same hill should be no problem, and render me much less of an obstacle to traffic.

The problem is that bicycle-grade wheels and tires were not made to go much faster than that 30-35 mph, and some of the roads have 40-50 mph traffic too, with hills every bit as steep. That is why I'm investigating motorcycle and moped parts. They need to still be light/easy enough to pedal, and that is going to narrow the selection down, possibly to zero, which would then necessitate a custom design for my application.

 

[neptronix]

I've been stopped by cops seven times now in the velo, including yesterday.

I was going downhill at 40+ mph and my trunk started coming open from the road bumps. I pulled into the left hand turn lane and then into a gas station to properly close it. A grey SUV pulled in behind me as I was getting out of my coroplast bodied KMX trike, and then the red and blue lights came on.

The officer fortunately wasn't threatening violence or argumentative(more often than not they are, and one psycho pointed a gun at me and was screaming at me for no reason back in 2018), but told me he received a complaint about an unlicensed vehicle operating on the highway. I let him know that it was unmotorized and was driven by pedals. He took a look at it and asked me questions about it. "How fast does it go?" "Aren't you afraid to ride that?" "How fast is it going up the hill?"

I gave direct answers to his questions as another police SUV pulled up. The cop walked over and said it was a bicycle. The cop in the other SUV exclaimed "He was doing 45 mph!"

That's really unfortunate. I've heard that being harassed by police is a regular thing for velomobile owners.

I still want one..

 

[neptronix]

The problem is that bicycle-grade wheels and tires were not made to go much faster than that 30-35 mph, and some of the roads have 40-50 mph traffic too, with hills every bit as steep. That is why I'm investigating motorcycle and moped parts. They need to still be light/easy enough to pedal, and that is going to narrow the selection down, possibly to zero, which would then necessitate a custom design for my application.

I haven't found bicycle wheels to be a hindrance to fast speeds except for their horrifically bad puncture resistance... which scales as a problem with your distance and max speed.. getting stranded because of a 10mm goathead 3 miles from home versus 30 miles from home is the difference between a walk of shame and an uber ride of shame.

The second you get into moped/motorcycle territory, you take a huge hit in rolling resistance. There's no way around it. They contain over triple the rubber mass to start with.

The wimpiest 16" moped/motorcycle/scooter tire you can get is here:
https://www.treatland.tv/hutchinson-spherus-tire-p/hutchinson-spherus-16x2.25tire.htm

You can also get a 22" BMX rim, which are typically made pretty tough, and fit a 18" moped/motorcycle/scooter tire to it.

 

[The Toecutter]

I still want one..

Get a trike with a suspension and build one around it. You won't regret it. That's the cheapest path towards having one, and can be done for under $2,000 with careful selection of trike and parts if you get a good deal on a used one, but if you're willing to forego suspension(unsafe/uncomfortable/poses reliability issues), then it can be done for under $1,000. Add extra cost to that to convert it to electric. To replicate my current setup, without any EV parts, but including the body material, it would cost about $2,500. Add in the EV parts, and lighting/signals/horn/gauges, and it will get closer to $3,500 by the time it is finished, not including the cost of bicycle assembly tools or spot welder, just the parts. Including tools, redundant/duplicate/obsolete/replaced parts, multiple design iterations, and an entire previous trike build that shares some parts, I have closer to $6,000 sunk in for everything, over the last 5 years, which works out to not much more than $0.10/mile for transportation thus far between two trikes.

If I had the money to justify purchasing a commercial one, I'd want a Milan SL.

I haven't found bicycle wheels to be a hindrance to fast speeds except for their horrifically bad puncture resistance... which scales as a problem with your distance and max speed.. getting stranded because of a 10mm goathead 3 miles from home versus 30 miles from home is the difference between a walk of shame and an uber ride of shame.

I don't even carry a smartphone, so I can forget about Uber being an option. Plus my vehicle would need a full-sized cargo van or a U-Haul truck to fit. I carry spare tires, tubes, a pump, and a gauge. I frequently(1-2 times a week) ride 30+ miles from home.

The second you get into moped/motorcycle territory, you take a huge hit in rolling resistance. There's no way around it. They contain over triple the rubber mass to start with.

That's because hardly anyone makes moped/scooter/motorcycle tires with low rolling resistance in mind. While it is true there is no getting around the added mass and rotational inertia it brings, once one is up to speed, it is the rolling resistance coefficient that is causing the dominant amount of power consumption from the tires and vehicle's laden mass.

There are car tires that have a Crr value comparable to touring bike tires. Most car tires are around 0.010-0.015, but there are some in the 0.006-0.007 range used in cars like the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight, which is a comparable Crr value to a Schwalbe Marathon Plus bicycle tire. Most moped/scooter/motorcycle tires are in the 0.015+ region, and that is why they suck watts.

This is why I think solar race car tires may be a good option. Definitely worth investigating. The Schwalbe Energizer Solar line looks appealing, may fit on a 26" bicycle wheel, and is rated for 62 mph, but is unobtanium in the U.S. Some solar race cars used the Mitas MC2 which is intended for mopeds, and there is a reason for them choosing it. I do not know the Crr value though, but if it is anything under 0.01, it will be "good enough", if only marginally pedalable if it is just under 0.01.

 

[John in CR]

The sustained power for 65mph cruising may be a bit much for that motor, so I'd install a temp sensor. When I first got away from the low power ebike motors I ran same diameter motors with a 40mm thick stack of lams with a 2t winding, and those were good for a sustained 60mph in a similar size wheel you're talking about. Depending how thick the stock phase wires are, you may want to beef them up, even if only the lazy way...cutting them just a few inches from the axle and going bigger wires to the controller.

That same concern about blowouts is why I went to moto tires after the first time I stupidly went 103mph on a 3" Kenda Flame tire. I actually did get a quickly deflating flat while in the middle lane of a 6 lane highway. Luckly I wasn't going too fast and the tough downhill tire stayed on the rim as I carefully got to the side of the road before stopping. Two added benefits of moto and scooter tires are:
1. They don't need air nearly as often.
2. The much thicker sidewalls make them so you can often ride it back home or to a tire shop before addressing the flat.

I look forward to hearing what kind of performance you get with the 3t.

Since they don't make a 2t version, the only wind I'd consider buying is a 3t, and with that I could build any low to moderate performance ebike that a customer wanted as long as they didn't want a 29er (which I'd refuse to build and would discourage 26" wheel builds, not because of the wind but because they'll get more range and better performance with a smaller wheel.)

A light-duty 16" DOT moto rim with 13ga spokes laced to a 3T version of the rear-drive freewheel-compatible Leafbike motor with a quality-built 11-34 7-speed freewheel installed, including a Mitas MC2 DOT tire(rated for 62 mph) installed on the rear wheel, would be perfect for this. Unfortunately, that freewheel doesn't exist new anymore. DNP's Epoch and its rebranded variants are crap, but that is about all there is today for a 7-speed freewheel with an 11T small ring present, and even those are under threat of becoming unobtainable. Should be good for 65 mph top speed at 72V with a powerful enough controller to drive it, although 96V would give 87 mph. 150A from the controller to this, a limit of 96V, and a 7 kW power limit would give a heavy tadpole trike set up with this an acceleration rate comparable to the average new car on the road. And the favorable part of this setup's efficiency curve would be very broad.

My cheap 46.8V 10.5AH battery arrived, and now I'm trying to source some small Andersons and XT60s so I can install them to the pack in order to charge it and connect it to the controller. With a 5T wind, setting that battery's draw to 1500W should give me around 35 mph top speed with my Leafbike motor and Phaserunner controller, which without the motor installed or all the heavy things that go with it I can already exceed 35 mph on the flat pedaling it, but the motor WILL at least be able to allow a 30 mph cruising speed, a speed which I can't currently do on the flat for very long. Hopefully the motor's iron loss and hysteresis drag is very low on my 26" bicycle wheel, since there's no point to me in it not being pedal-able with the motor off. When I have my 20S2P 72V 7AH LiIon pack built up, I will then be able to upgrade that top speed to 50 mph with the same amount of power. Then when I do the 20S6P 72V 21AH pack of the same type of cells soon after, I can increase the peak power to 4.5 kW or even slightly more!

I currently have a Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour tire on my 26" rear wheel. It's about as puncture-resistant as e-bike compatible bicycle tires get, but I wouldn't trust it at 30+ mph. A rear tire blowout on my tadpole trike would be catastrophic at 30+ mph, let alone doing 60-100 mph, so that Mitas MC2 low rolling resistance tire mentioned earlier would provide an acceptable resistance to catastrophic failure from puncture, better than any bicycle tire, and with most of my weight being over the two front wheels, rolling resistance wouldn't be impacted too badly by adding this tire, keeping it pedalable(some testing would be needed to determine if they were of sufficiently low rolling resistance for the front). The Marathon Plus Tour's rolling resistance is not considered to be very good, and I can't say whether the Mitas MC2 would be better or worse regarding this, but the assumption is that it would be close. On the front wheels I could probably get away with 50 km/h continuous-rated Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard e-bike tires, even at higher speeds, since a front blowout would not cause me to lose control as long as the rim is in-tact and the front suspension maintains air pressure, but I would definitely want stronger rims and hubs than the quality bicycle parts I have. These tires are good enough to stop my unmotorized velomobile from 50+ mph, but I've never had to test a panic stop from that speed, for which I'd want to upgrade my Avid BB7 cable-pull brakes to hydraulic brakes(I did have a panic stop from 45 mph and the tires did fine, although the braking wasn't even because the calipers went slightly out of adjustment and getting pulled toward a minivan in the other lane was scary and required careful modulation of the brake lever to avoid going passed the red light and into an intersection with 50 mph cross traffic). With the smaller rear wheel diameter of the 16" moto rim(comparable to a 20" bicycle tire), I'd need a rear suspension installed given the condition of the roads where I am at, and my current body shell would not be able to accommodate for that OR the smaller wheel, so would require a re-design of the shell. But a 3T upgrade and a more powerful controller and sturdier rims all around with a more aero body, a lighter more powerful/energy dense battery, and a roll cage, is something I've been thinking about for the longer term for this KMX, at least in hopes of making it safe to cruise at 45+ mph, while still being pedalable with the motor off.

 

[Balmorhea]

That motor-wheel combo [6T 1500W Leaf, 29" wheel] has a free speed close to 40 mph, top speed of about 28 without help at the pedals.

Achieving only 70% of no load speed is a sure indication that the motor is grossly too steeply geared.

I was wondering about that myself, so I pulled up the wheel on my bike and cranked the throttle open to confirm the no-load speed.

Turns out it's 29.7 mph. !!!

No wonder I have to pedal so hard to get to 32 mph! Haha.

I remembered 40 mph from calculations based on data from Leaf Bike. They told me the 6T version had a free speed of 418 rpm at 48V. That's about 36 mph with my wheel, and I extrapolated 40 mph no-load speed by assuming 54V actual.

Now I wonder if they actually sent me an 8T motor, because doing the same calculation using the 293 rpm number they gave me for 8T at 48V yields exactly, to the decimal, the free speed I'm seeing on my bike's display.

I'll continue to preach until I'm blue in the face that no direct drive hubmotor should be geared with a 29er.

You keep preaching, and folks who want to ride e-bikes that are good bicycles first and foremost will keep ignoring you.

 

[John in CR]

You keep preaching, and folks who want to ride e-bikes that are good bicycles first and foremost will keep ignoring you.

No, that's not why they use 29ers with motors that don't work well in wheels that large. It's because they don't know any better due in large part to people like you specifically who spread bad information which confused the issue. Remember that it required me repeatedly correcting you about windings until you finally got it and stopped putting forward that nonsense about higher turn count motors being more efficient at low speeds and climbing hills better. You should note that China, which leads the world by a very large margin in electric 2 wheelers of all types uses smaller wheels on their hubmotors. All the 26" and up stuff is made for export, not for their domestic use, simply to meet demand from consumers who don't know better. Any idea that a 26" or larger wheel is a prerequisite for a good pedal bike is just silly. Your confusing style with truth.

 

[Balmorhea]

Remember that it required me repeatedly correcting you about windings until you finally got it and stopped putting forward that nonsense about higher turn count motors being more efficient at low speeds and climbing hills better.

They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.

 

[ZeroEm]

I'm wanting one of them 36" wheeled bikes but all sold out. They are working on a E-bike version, what do you think?

 

[john61ct]

They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.

So maybe this syntax?

Getting high torque and better efficiency at low speeds

requires higher turn count motors, or

spending lots more on your controller, battery pack etc.

 

[ZeroEm]

I just can't get my head around 16" moped wheels and peddling at 40 mph with standard chain rings.

 

[Balmorhea]

I'm wanting one of them 36" wheeled bikes but all sold out. They are working on a E-bike version, what do you think?

That's a big wheel for any existing hub motor to deal with. It's a better candidate for a mid drive.

 

[The Toecutter]

The sustained power for 65mph cruising may be a bit much for that motor, so I'd install a temp sensor.

I've got a 10k NTC thermistor.

Depending upon CdA and Crr, I may be able to do 65 mph only 1.5 kW. Not happening with the 5T wind though at 72V, but a 3T would have no problem. This thing is a lot more slippery than the naked trike. I can do 37 mph completely under my own power, unmotorized, on the flat. A normal diamond-framed upright ebike would need 1.5-2 kW to do that. I doubt I make 2 kW pedaling it, possibly half that for a few seconds at a time, continuous is probably on the order of 150W and that gets me well over 20 mph on the flat, and maybe I can do 500-600 watts for a minute or two.

A vehicle with the drag footprint of a velomobile opens the possibility of 100 mph on like 3-4 kW. None of the commercial velomobiles are designed to handle this sort of speed, however, given that they are intended to be human powered and people are not that powerful, but they do fine cruising at 25-30 mph and briefly reaching 50-60 mph downhills or in a sprint with a powerful rider. So I'm on my own making something suitable for this task.

When I first got away from the low power ebike motors I ran same diameter motors with a 40mm thick stack of lams with a 2t winding, and those were good for a sustained 60mph in a similar size wheel you're talking about.

At what voltage?

Depending how thick the stock phase wires are, you may want to beef them up, even if only the lazy way...cutting them just a few inches from the axle and going bigger wires to the controller.

I have the "black lightning" version of this motor, so it already has the 3mm phase wires. According to the info in this topic, at 72V, it should be good for 4-7 kW peak and about 2-2.5 kW continuous, and about 30-35A continuous phase current.

That same concern about blowouts is why I went to moto tires after the first time I stupidly went 103mph on a 3" Kenda Flame tire.

That's ballsy.

I look forward to hearing what kind of performance you get with the 3t.

That's going to be a while. I'll be lucky to have this thing converted with the 46.8V pack and do 35 mph within the next 2 weeks, but the 72V pack to do 50+ mph will come soon after. This with the 5T in a 26" bicycle wheel.

The 3T laced into a 16" moto rim is going to require a complete re-design of the velomobile. That will take a while, maybe a task for next year or the year after once I get all the bugs of my first build worked out. In fact, on the KMX, I wouldn't trust a cruising speed of more than 45 mph or so WITH moto rims all around and full suspension, and if I wanted to do 65 mph cruising speeds and reach 85+ mph, I'm looking at a custom frame design with an integrated roll cage, and the body certainly would NOT be made of polypropylene plastic, tape, and zip ties.

I just can't get my head around 16" moped wheels and peddling at 40 mph with standard chain rings.

I can pedal at a cadence of up to 110-120 rpm continuously(and have zero issue with lower cadences down to 60 rpm as well), and do 140 rpm for a few minutes at a time.

I currently have a 26/39/53T triple with 152mm crankarms up front with a 34-11T 7-speed cassette in the rear, driving a wheel fitted with a 26"x1.5" Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour tire.

If I were to take my 26" rear wheel and swap in a 16" moto wheel(roughly equivalent to 20" BMX wheel in size), I could do 31.5 mph at 110 rpm and 40 mph at 140 rpm pedaling in the tallest gear. However, due to the different left/right axle size on the cassette version of the Leafbike motor, for the higher speed application that would justify a 3T wind motor and the moto rim and for doing highway speeds, I'd want the freewheel variant because the axle is consistent in size on both sides of the motor, but sourcing a 34-11T 7sp freewheel that is quality is kind of a tall order these days.

However, there is a bottom-bracket mounted gearing system called a Schlumpf drive, which makes 3 varieties, Mountain(gear reduction by 2.5), Speed(multiply speed by 1.6), and High Speed(multiply speed by 2.5), which can be engaged or disengaged. A 16" moto wheel with a Schlumpf HS drive would allow me to cruise at 65 mph with a cadence of 91 in top gear when engaged, and reach 100 mph with a cadence of 140 in top gear when engaged. Obviously, human power is going to need assistance from the electric motor do do that, and may only top out at closer to 90 mph with pedal assist at 96V given the 3T wind motor's limitations. Lugging it up a steep 20% grade with my own two feet and the electric drive disabled and the HS drive not engaged yields 2.7 mph at a 60 rpm cadence in the lowest gear.

So, human power can add to the motive force for the vehicle's entire operating range, and it would have low enough low gearing to go up steep hills entirely under human power. It would be an electric tricycle, that can accelerate, corner, and move like a car, and be pedaled somewhat like a normal velomobile with everything disabled on your local bicycle path or whenever/wherever else desired. Range anxiety wouldn't exist since you could pedal it when the battery runs out, although a 1.5-2 kWh pack would give it range like a 1st gen Nissan Leaf on the highway with a modest 120W human input accounting for about 10% of the motive force, and it would possibly get hundreds of miles of range at 30-35 mph with a 120W human input accounting for 1/3 of the motive force. 50-100W of solar panels on such a thing would be the tits, and add significantly to that range.

My first build is going to fall far short of that theoretical possibility, but as far as ebikes go, it might do very well. I'm excited to finally get something built. Waiting on those damn Andersons and XT60s to come in so I can re-wire that cheap 46.8V pack to work with my Phaserunner controller and Satiator charger.

 

[John in CR]

They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.

So maybe this syntax?

Getting high torque and better efficiency at low speeds

requires higher turn count motors, or

spending lots more on your controller, battery pack etc.

Both are absolutely incorrect.

 

[Balmorhea]

All the 26" and up stuff is made for export, not for their domestic use, simply to meet demand from consumers who don't know better. Any idea that a 26" or larger wheel is a prerequisite for a good pedal bike is just silly. Your confusing style with truth.

It's like you've never heard of a Flying Pigeon. That's not a 26" wheeled bike.

28 x 1-1/2" wheels (2 sizes up from 700C) have been standard issue all over the world for over a hundred years. Before tire sizes became highly standardized in the early 20th century, wheel sizes tended to run even larger than that. It's 26" and smaller wheels that have been the fashion-driven anomaly, that for decades were limited to children's bikes.

 

[Balmorhea]

They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.

So maybe this syntax?

Getting high torque and better efficiency at low speeds

requires higher turn count motors, or

spending lots more on your controller, battery pack etc.

Both are absolutely incorrect.

Make your case. I can't get a kWh of 16V battery or 100A controller nearly as cheaply and easily as 48V battery and 35A controller. Maybe you can, but you'll have to prove it.

 

[The Toecutter]

For a bicycle application, the larger sized wheels make sense, if only to keep the rear derailleur as far off the ground as possible.

 

[Balmorhea]

For a bicycle application, the larger sized wheels make sense, if only to keep the rear derailleur as far off the ground as possible.

It's for ride comfort, rolling efficiency, and traction on less than smooth surfaces.

 

[goatman]

Is it not easier to just buy a moped and glue peddles on it. Where is " Balmorhea", we need some balance. So how many here peddle at 30+ mph with a moped wheel? How many miles, i'm thinking sign up for tour de france.

A moped with pedals on it would legally be defined as a moped, requiring a license, registration, and insurance, defeating the purpose entirely for my use case. It also wouldn't be nearly as efficient as what I'm building due to the mass and drag, nor provide weather protection, nor be able to carry as much stuff. It would be a downgrade.

I don't have a moped wheel yet, but I exceed 30 mph on a daily basis, can reach just a few mph shy of 40 on flat ground in a sprint, have been over 50 mph downhill, cruise at almost 25 mph on flat ground with rolling averages varying from 13-23 mph depending upon weather, traffic conditions, stop lights, and other factors, and I ride this thing 20-40 miles a day putting 10,000 miles a year on it, with no motor at all.

The motor will mainly be for acceleration, maintaining speed up hills, and adding a few mph to the cruising speed to make 30-35 mph for tens of miles at a time viable. There will also be the occassional random acts of jackassery, when there are no cops lurking about. Without a motor, I cannot hold 30 mph on the flat for more than 2-3 minutes at a time, there are steep hills that I can only go up at 5-6 mph for the same effort it takes to do 30 mph on the flat, and a full on sprint to 37-38 mph will have me worn out for the day.

first time ever, a cop pulled me over yesterday to see what im driving on "our" roads and then made sure i had pedals and to call my trike a "death-trap", he was a nice cop though and laughed when i pointed out that i have a roll cage

Do you have a link to your build? I want to see it!

I've been stopped by cops seven times now in the velo, including yesterday.

I was going downhill at 40+ mph and my trunk started coming open from the road bumps. I pulled into the left hand turn lane and then into a gas station to properly close it. A grey SUV pulled in behind me as I was getting out of my coroplast bodied KMX trike, and then the red and blue lights came on.

The officer fortunately wasn't threatening violence or argumentative(more often than not they are, and one psycho pointed a gun at me and was screaming at me for no reason back in 2018), but told me he received a complaint about an unlicensed vehicle operating on the highway. I let him know that it was unmotorized and was driven by pedals. He took a look at it and asked me questions about it. "How fast does it go?" "Aren't you afraid to ride that?" "How fast is it going up the hill?"

I gave direct answers to his questions as another police SUV pulled up. The cop walked over and said it was a bicycle. The cop in the other SUV exclaimed "He was doing 45 mph!"

As I got into my trike, the officer who got out to ask me questions got back into his SUV. They drove off, with me following them back onto the road.

Here's an outdated pic of what is soon getting a 5T wind Leafbike motor:

https://i.imgur.com/yeS6eGM.jpg

I don't have a camera, so getting pics is rare. It now has a turtledeck, stiffening braces, all gaps sealed up with 3M plastic tape, boots over the suspension arms, among other changes that have impacted the aerodynamics in a positive direction. I still need to get the front wheel farings working properly to where there is no rub. I made some aluminum ones but they added drag since they were too wide, and are thus useless for now, but have some plastic ones that I'm trying to eliminate any possibility of contact with the tire, and which will hopefully be shaped appropriately for drag reduction.

What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.

Indeed. The only close calls I've ever had have been because of cars, usually some idiot texting on their phone.

its not a roll cage, its a modified tent got 6000 hard kms on it and am replacing the motor cable tonight and the motor looks brand new inside

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103834

 

[The Toecutter]

It's for ride comfort, rolling efficiency, and traction on less than smooth surfaces.

Makes sense.

I wouldn't be able to go to a 20" bicycle wheel or 16" moto wheel in the rear without a rear suspension. An unsuspended rear with a 26" bicycle wheel is already a bit rough for me going down certain roads at 25-30 mph, having experienced a few occasions of the rear wheel being thrown off the ground over potholes by a few inches and me losing control of the trike for a hundred scary milliseconds or two, and that's with most of the mass over the front wheels. It doesn't happen often(perhaps 10 times in the last 40,000+ miles), but it only takes one catastrophic wreck to bring my fun to an end. This sort of event is a lot scarier while turning than it is going straight. I'd imagine a 20" bicycle rim or motorcycle sized equivalent would make this loss of control an everyday occurrence on the roads I ride without the addition of a rear suspension.

its not a roll cage, its a modified tent got 6000 hard kms on it and am replacing the motor cable tonight and the motor looks brand new inside

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103834

Sweet! Taking a look at it right now, may make a comment later.