ZeroEm
1 MW
Is it not easier to just buy a moped and glue peddles on it. Where is " Balmorhea", we need some balance. So how many here peddle at 30+ mph with a moped wheel? How many miles, i'm thinking sign up for tour de france.
"death-trap"
ZeroEm said:Is it not easier to just buy a moped and glue peddles on it. Where is " Balmorhea", we need some balance. So how many here peddle at 30+ mph with a moped wheel? How many miles, i'm thinking sign up for tour de france.
goatman said:first time ever, a cop pulled me over yesterday to see what im driving on "our" roads and then made sure i had pedals and to call my trike a "death-trap", he was a nice cop though and laughed when i pointed out that i have a roll cage
ZeroEm said:What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.
ZeroEm said:above 35 mph is not safe, if in doubt watch the news and let me know how many die below 35 mph or 56 kph.
What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.
neptronix said:When you have 40-45mph speed limits and no bike lanes.. and your bike can't hit that speed, the most unsafe thing you can do is become a traffic obstacle in a sea of cars.
If you want a sneak peek of how dangerous this is, get on a 70mph highway during peak traffic and cruise along at say, 40mph and see what happens.
I would bet you'd not repeat the experience.
The Toecutter said:I've been stopped by cops seven times now in the velo, including yesterday.
I was going downhill at 40+ mph and my trunk started coming open from the road bumps. I pulled into the left hand turn lane and then into a gas station to properly close it. A grey SUV pulled in behind me as I was getting out of my coroplast bodied KMX trike, and then the red and blue lights came on.
The officer fortunately wasn't threatening violence or argumentative(more often than not they are, and one psycho pointed a gun at me and was screaming at me for no reason back in 2018), but told me he received a complaint about an unlicensed vehicle operating on the highway. I let him know that it was unmotorized and was driven by pedals. He took a look at it and asked me questions about it. "How fast does it go?" "Aren't you afraid to ride that?" "How fast is it going up the hill?"
I gave direct answers to his questions as another police SUV pulled up. The cop walked over and said it was a bicycle. The cop in the other SUV exclaimed "He was doing 45 mph!"
The Toecutter said:The problem is that bicycle-grade wheels and tires were not made to go much faster than that 30-35 mph, and some of the roads have 40-50 mph traffic too, with hills every bit as steep. That is why I'm investigating motorcycle and moped parts. They need to still be light/easy enough to pedal, and that is going to narrow the selection down, possibly to zero, which would then necessitate a custom design for my application.
neptronix said:I still want one..
neptronix said:I haven't found bicycle wheels to be a hindrance to fast speeds except for their horrifically bad puncture resistance... which scales as a problem with your distance and max speed.. getting stranded because of a 10mm goathead 3 miles from home versus 30 miles from home is the difference between a walk of shame and an uber ride of shame.
The second you get into moped/motorcycle territory, you take a huge hit in rolling resistance. There's no way around it. They contain over triple the rubber mass to start with.
The Toecutter said:John in CR said:Since they don't make a 2t version, the only wind I'd consider buying is a 3t, and with that I could build any low to moderate performance ebike that a customer wanted as long as they didn't want a 29er (which I'd refuse to build and would discourage 26" wheel builds, not because of the wind but because they'll get more range and better performance with a smaller wheel.)
A light-duty 16" DOT moto rim with 13ga spokes laced to a 3T version of the rear-drive freewheel-compatible Leafbike motor with a quality-built 11-34 7-speed freewheel installed, including a Mitas MC2 DOT tire(rated for 62 mph) installed on the rear wheel, would be perfect for this. Unfortunately, that freewheel doesn't exist new anymore. DNP's Epoch and its rebranded variants are crap, but that is about all there is today for a 7-speed freewheel with an 11T small ring present, and even those are under threat of becoming unobtainable. Should be good for 65 mph top speed at 72V with a powerful enough controller to drive it, although 96V would give 87 mph. 150A from the controller to this, a limit of 96V, and a 7 kW power limit would give a heavy tadpole trike set up with this an acceleration rate comparable to the average new car on the road. And the favorable part of this setup's efficiency curve would be very broad.
My cheap 46.8V 10.5AH battery arrived, and now I'm trying to source some small Andersons and XT60s so I can install them to the pack in order to charge it and connect it to the controller. With a 5T wind, setting that battery's draw to 1500W should give me around 35 mph top speed with my Leafbike motor and Phaserunner controller, which without the motor installed or all the heavy things that go with it I can already exceed 35 mph on the flat pedaling it, but the motor WILL at least be able to allow a 30 mph cruising speed, a speed which I can't currently do on the flat for very long. Hopefully the motor's iron loss and hysteresis drag is very low on my 26" bicycle wheel, since there's no point to me in it not being pedal-able with the motor off. When I have my 20S2P 72V 7AH LiIon pack built up, I will then be able to upgrade that top speed to 50 mph with the same amount of power. Then when I do the 20S6P 72V 21AH pack of the same type of cells soon after, I can increase the peak power to 4.5 kW or even slightly more!
I currently have a Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour tire on my 26" rear wheel. It's about as puncture-resistant as e-bike compatible bicycle tires get, but I wouldn't trust it at 30+ mph. A rear tire blowout on my tadpole trike would be catastrophic at 30+ mph, let alone doing 60-100 mph, so that Mitas MC2 low rolling resistance tire mentioned earlier would provide an acceptable resistance to catastrophic failure from puncture, better than any bicycle tire, and with most of my weight being over the two front wheels, rolling resistance wouldn't be impacted too badly by adding this tire, keeping it pedalable(some testing would be needed to determine if they were of sufficiently low rolling resistance for the front). The Marathon Plus Tour's rolling resistance is not considered to be very good, and I can't say whether the Mitas MC2 would be better or worse regarding this, but the assumption is that it would be close. On the front wheels I could probably get away with 50 km/h continuous-rated Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard e-bike tires, even at higher speeds, since a front blowout would not cause me to lose control as long as the rim is in-tact and the front suspension maintains air pressure, but I would definitely want stronger rims and hubs than the quality bicycle parts I have. These tires are good enough to stop my unmotorized velomobile from 50+ mph, but I've never had to test a panic stop from that speed, for which I'd want to upgrade my Avid BB7 cable-pull brakes to hydraulic brakes(I did have a panic stop from 45 mph and the tires did fine, although the braking wasn't even because the calipers went slightly out of adjustment and getting pulled toward a minivan in the other lane was scary and required careful modulation of the brake lever to avoid going passed the red light and into an intersection with 50 mph cross traffic). With the smaller rear wheel diameter of the 16" moto rim(comparable to a 20" bicycle tire), I'd need a rear suspension installed given the condition of the roads where I am at, and my current body shell would not be able to accommodate for that OR the smaller wheel, so would require a re-design of the shell. But a 3T upgrade and a more powerful controller and sturdier rims all around with a more aero body, a lighter more powerful/energy dense battery, and a roll cage, is something I've been thinking about for the longer term for this KMX, at least in hopes of making it safe to cruise at 45+ mph, while still being pedalable with the motor off.
John in CR said:Balmorhea said:That motor-wheel combo [6T 1500W Leaf, 29" wheel] has a free speed close to 40 mph, top speed of about 28 without help at the pedals.
Achieving only 70% of no load speed is a sure indication that the motor is grossly too steeply geared.
I'll continue to preach until I'm blue in the face that no direct drive hubmotor should be geared with a 29er.
Balmorhea said:You keep preaching, and folks who want to ride e-bikes that are good bicycles first and foremost will keep ignoring you.
John in CR said:Remember that it required me repeatedly correcting you about windings until you finally got it and stopped putting forward that nonsense about higher turn count motors being more efficient at low speeds and climbing hills better.
So maybe this syntax?Balmorhea said:They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.
ZeroEm said:I'm wanting one of them 36" wheeled bikes but all sold out. They are working on a E-bike version, what do you think?
John in CR said:The sustained power for 65mph cruising may be a bit much for that motor, so I'd install a temp sensor.
When I first got away from the low power ebike motors I ran same diameter motors with a 40mm thick stack of lams with a 2t winding, and those were good for a sustained 60mph in a similar size wheel you're talking about.
Depending how thick the stock phase wires are, you may want to beef them up, even if only the lazy way...cutting them just a few inches from the axle and going bigger wires to the controller.
That same concern about blowouts is why I went to moto tires after the first time I stupidly went 103mph on a 3" Kenda Flame tire.
I look forward to hearing what kind of performance you get with the 3t.
ZeroEm said:I just can't get my head around 16" moped wheels and peddling at 40 mph with standard chain rings.
john61ct said:So maybe this syntax?Balmorhea said:They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.
Getting high torque and better efficiency at low speeds
requires higher turn count motors, or
spending lots more on your controller, battery pack etc.
John in CR said:All the 26" and up stuff is made for export, not for their domestic use, simply to meet demand from consumers who don't know better. Any idea that a 26" or larger wheel is a prerequisite for a good pedal bike is just silly. Your confusing style with truth.
John in CR said:john61ct said:So maybe this syntax?Balmorhea said:They are and they do, if you stick to normal/low cost batteries, controllers, cables, and connectors.
Getting high torque and better efficiency at low speeds
requires higher turn count motors, or
spending lots more on your controller, battery pack etc.
Both are absolutely incorrect.
The Toecutter said:For a bicycle application, the larger sized wheels make sense, if only to keep the rear derailleur as far off the ground as possible.
The Toecutter said:ZeroEm said:Is it not easier to just buy a moped and glue peddles on it. Where is " Balmorhea", we need some balance. So how many here peddle at 30+ mph with a moped wheel? How many miles, i'm thinking sign up for tour de france.
A moped with pedals on it would legally be defined as a moped, requiring a license, registration, and insurance, defeating the purpose entirely for my use case. It also wouldn't be nearly as efficient as what I'm building due to the mass and drag, nor provide weather protection, nor be able to carry as much stuff. It would be a downgrade.
I don't have a moped wheel yet, but I exceed 30 mph on a daily basis, can reach just a few mph shy of 40 on flat ground in a sprint, have been over 50 mph downhill, cruise at almost 25 mph on flat ground with rolling averages varying from 13-23 mph depending upon weather, traffic conditions, stop lights, and other factors, and I ride this thing 20-40 miles a day putting 10,000 miles a year on it, with no motor at all.
The motor will mainly be for acceleration, maintaining speed up hills, and adding a few mph to the cruising speed to make 30-35 mph for tens of miles at a time viable. There will also be the occassional random acts of jackassery, when there are no cops lurking about. Without a motor, I cannot hold 30 mph on the flat for more than 2-3 minutes at a time, there are steep hills that I can only go up at 5-6 mph for the same effort it takes to do 30 mph on the flat, and a full on sprint to 37-38 mph will have me worn out for the day.
goatman said:first time ever, a cop pulled me over yesterday to see what im driving on "our" roads and then made sure i had pedals and to call my trike a "death-trap", he was a nice cop though and laughed when i pointed out that i have a roll cage
Do you have a link to your build? I want to see it!
I've been stopped by cops seven times now in the velo, including yesterday.
I was going downhill at 40+ mph and my trunk started coming open from the road bumps. I pulled into the left hand turn lane and then into a gas station to properly close it. A grey SUV pulled in behind me as I was getting out of my coroplast bodied KMX trike, and then the red and blue lights came on.
The officer fortunately wasn't threatening violence or argumentative(more often than not they are, and one psycho pointed a gun at me and was screaming at me for no reason back in 2018), but told me he received a complaint about an unlicensed vehicle operating on the highway. I let him know that it was unmotorized and was driven by pedals. He took a look at it and asked me questions about it. "How fast does it go?" "Aren't you afraid to ride that?" "How fast is it going up the hill?"
I gave direct answers to his questions as another police SUV pulled up. The cop walked over and said it was a bicycle. The cop in the other SUV exclaimed "He was doing 45 mph!"
As I got into my trike, the officer who got out to ask me questions got back into his SUV. They drove off, with me following them back onto the road.
Here's an outdated pic of what is soon getting a 5T wind Leafbike motor:
https://i.imgur.com/yeS6eGM.jpg
I don't have a camera, so getting pics is rare. It now has a turtledeck, stiffening braces, all gaps sealed up with 3M plastic tape, boots over the suspension arms, among other changes that have impacted the aerodynamics in a positive direction. I still need to get the front wheel farings working properly to where there is no rub. I made some aluminum ones but they added drag since they were too wide, and are thus useless for now, but have some plastic ones that I'm trying to eliminate any possibility of contact with the tire, and which will hopefully be shaped appropriately for drag reduction.
ZeroEm said:What is not safe is the cars on the road. I don't worry about E-bikes/E-trikes running into me and killing me.
Indeed. The only close calls I've ever had have been because of cars, usually some idiot texting on their phone.
Balmorhea said:It's for ride comfort, rolling efficiency, and traction on less than smooth surfaces.
goatman said:its not a roll cage, its a modified tent got 6000 hard kms on it and am replacing the motor cable tonight and the motor looks brand new inside
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103834