Legacy Throttle - CAV3 settings (help)

[rocam]

Hi All,

I flashed the new software to my CA V3 in order to use it for the first time today. Previously I have only used the eZee motor and controller with the throttle and no CA at all (it had a testing firmware and not end user firmware).

I'm trying to go through the instructions in the manual for setup using the 'legacy-throttle' mode = keeping the throttle connected directly to the controller. I have only one "Mode Presets" and one "Battery Presets".

With Throttle input mode is default Pass-Through then there is no effect on using the throttle. Fair enough. The guide says to use CntrlMode=Off (WOT) for the legacy mode (and I can leave the other parameters as default). As soon as I exit the Setup Menu then the motor kicks off on it's own, without the throttle being used.

I'm reading all the settings parameters and have searched ES for some similar problems, but I haven't had any luck yet. You have an idea, or can point me to another post?

My goal is to use the throttle to control the bike (using volts) and to have the CA to limit the speed and watts. Later I'll install the THUN torque sensor.

Thanks!

 

[teklektik]

It appears that you have the CA-to-controller connection set up for 'normal' not 'legacy' mode so the Off( WOT ) setting directly drives the controller to full throttle.

The easiest thing to do is probably just to plug the throttle into the V3 and go directly to 'normal' configuration - but if that's not on the agenda:

• 'Normal' V3 operation must not have a diode in the connection to the controller - current flows out of the CA throttle connection to the controller.
• 'Legacy' operation requires a diode - current can only flow into the CA from the controller to reduce the voltage from the operator throttle. In that case the Off( WOT ) setting provides a pull-up to the V3 throttle override connection and the CA reduces the voltage as needed to clamp (limit) the operator throttle voltage.

Most recent controllers to date with a CA-DP JST6 connector are V2-compatible and have the diode internal to the controller. This allows you to simply plug the V3 into the controller for legacy V2 operation. However, there was a recent post that seemed to indicate that new Xlyte controllers may be being produced as 'V3' compatible with a resistor instead of the diode - the matter is a little unclear. If you have simply plugged your V3 into the controller and are getting the behavior you describe, your controller lacks the diode. (Since newer real CA V2s have a diode anyway, the controller will work with a V2 as well - the issue is with a V3 in V2 mode).

As mentioned above, the easy thing to do in that case is to go with 'normal' V3 operation so you can get all the features. If you wish to stay legacy, you can open the V3 and relocate the green wire from the CA-DP cable from ThO to Thd PCB pads (under the square brown polyfuse - see section E.2). This will introduce the required diode to the throttle circuit for the simple V2-style direct plug-in CA-DP connection described in the Guide..

If this works out, please post back with the controller type, so the V3 Guide can be updated with expanded instructions.

 

[John in CR]

You don't have the throttle override wire correct. The CA can't make the motor turn with it wired correctly. It can only draw down the throttle voltage sent by your hall throttle. The required diode prevents the CA from "sending" voltage to the throttle sense of the controller.

 

[rocam]

Hi Teklektik,


Seems that I'm misunderstanding some things from the documentation. Quite a lot of new terms for me!

I'm happy to connect the throttle to the CA and get access to the features, but I read that I have to do some wiring changes to make this possible. "Swap pins around so that the green wire from the CA-DP goes into the controller's regular throttle input." Is that right, or do you think a direct input Throttle->CA->controller will work out-of-the-box?

The controller is the one that came with the eZee kit from Grin.

Thanks!

 

[teklektik]

You don't have the throttle override wire correct.

Yep. Since rocam seems to be following the Guide instructions for setting up V2 legacy mode, I'm assuming he just plugged the CA into the controller using the CA-DP connector. That works fine for V2 legacy mode if the controller has the internal diode (until the V3 came along - that was the recent V2 standard).

 

[teklektik]

Seems that I'm misunderstanding some things from the documentation. Quite a lot of new terms for me!

I'm happy to connect the throttle to the CA and get access to the features, but I read that I have to do some wiring changes to make this possible. "Swap pins around so that the green wire from the CA-DP goes into the controller's regular throttle input." Is that right, or do you think a direct input Throttle->CA->controller will work out-of-the-box?

The controller is the one that came with the eZee kit from Grin.

Well, the V3 is not a plug-n-play toy - so there are a few new things to understand. No problem...

I will fire off an email to Justin to see what's up with the (new) controllers - I'm thinking his new controllers are all set up for V3 operation and the Guide needs to catch up - it's presently appropriate for pre-V3 style controllers.

Meanwhile, perhaps you can just post back with exactly how you connected the CA to the controller - that will help clear up the electrical end of things...

 

[rocam]

Again, thanks for the help.

I have the CA connected directly into the controller. The controller has two inputs - one with three pins that takes the throttle, and one with five that is the direct plugin for the CA.

There is no external shunt, and I have not opened the controller or CA to make any changes.

 

[teklektik]

I have the CA connected directly into the controller.

Okay - this what I thought. I have an email off to Justin to get an authoritative answer, but it looks like Grin has revised their controllers to be 'large screen CA' compatible - that is, direct CA-DP plug-in compatible for both the newer 'large screen' V2 and the V3 (same large screen).

So - since it won't hurt anything electrically if this guess is wrong - while we're awaiting an email response, just plug your throttle into the CA and try the instructions for 'normal' (non-legacy) configuration. Setting ThrI->CtnlMode = Passthru should get you a more-or-less familiar throttle action - it will still require the setup steps to work 100%, but it's a quick test to see if the CA to controller throttle connection is okay.

 

[rocam]

I'll give that a try in the morning and let you know how it goes. Time to hit the hay in this part of the globe :wink:

 

[teklektik]

Got an update from Justin and he verifies that the new Grin Tech controllers are V2/V3 compatible so by simply plugging the V3 into the controller, you can proceed with the 'normal' configuration steps in the Guide - plug the throttle into the V3 and you are good to go (at least with controllers purchased from Grin Tech).

Apologies for the confusion. We've sort of been busy doing 'other stuff' this summer, particularly after Justin's trip, so the Guide is a bit out of sync. I'll post some stuff in the V3 Beta Preview thread shortly to get this info out there and update the Guide accordingly.

Thanks for your post to help identify this issue...

 

[rocam]

No need for apologies, I know the work on the Guide is voluntary and its really appreciated that there is some documentation that you guys have taken a lot of your time to make as good as possible.

I can confirm the throttle works fine with the direct connection to this controller

Now I can start the real fun with the CA

Thanks for the help!

 

[rocam]

The bike+CAV3 is working much better now, you guys are really great, thanks. I ran through the basic setup and adjustment of the throttle in/out params, and made the commute today to work, speedo working fine.

But... I have new issues that you could help with.

I defined the battery as 36v LiMn with Capacity of 15,4 Ah. Everything else under battery settings is left at default since I don't know the number of cells or LoVGain. Cutoff is still at 19, my battery (from Crystalite) has BMS but I suppose I should change this to something under 36, but not much under 36... I'll do some research.

Anyways - the CA still displays voltage at around 64.8 V - and according to the display I am constantly pulling about 100W just by standing still (1.5 A at 64V) and this does not seem right. The display shows Wattage readings way over what is realistic - like I'm using 3000W when biking at 20-30kph, so if I try to set a limit at e.g. 250w then I don't get anywhere because the CA thinks I hit this almost immediately. (the diagnostic screen shows capital A, but I can see already the watts shoot up so I know this is the limit even without this help)

Any ideas?

On a side note - I notice there is a Prelim 6 version of the software somewhere on ES (I have installed prelim 5 yesterday because this is what is listed on http://ebikes.ca/store/store_CAV3.php with the note "Use This One" - maybe we could have that updated

 

[teklektik]

Happy to see things are getting sorted out...

On a side note - I notice there is a Prelim 6 version of the software somewhere on ES (I have installed prelim 5 yesterday because this is what is listed on http://ebikes.ca/store/store_CAV3.php with the note "Use This One" - maybe we could have that updated

Update the firmware first. There are links to all the firmware and release notes in the same post as the Guide. Justin posts in that thread when he makes a firmware update and I post when a new Guide release is made. If you subscribe to the thread, you will get a ping to tell you that the new stuff is available.

I defined the battery as 36v LiMn with Capacity of 15,4 Ah. Everything else under battery settings is left at default since I don't know the number of cells or LoVGain. Cutoff is still at 19, my battery (from Crystalite) has BMS but I suppose I should change this to something under 36, but not much under 36... I'll do some research.

I think your battery is 10s so set the number of cells to 10. Leave LoVGain at 800. Assuming a LiMn cell and 10s with a cutoff of about 3.4v/cell (not sure about this), try a VltCutoff of 34v. I would set this so the CA not the BMS does the shutdown - but there may be other opinions about that...

Anyways - the CA still displays voltage at around 64.8 V - and according to the display, I am constantly pulling about 100W just by standing still (1.5 A at 64V) and this does not seem right.

Seems like your CA is pretty uncalibrated - the voltage in particular is surprising.

Go to the SETUP CALIBRATION section of Setup and enter Cal->RShunt (should be on the controller). Then with the throttle closed, go to Cal->ZeroAmps and press-hold the right button. That should get your standing current to zero amps. It sounds like your Cal->VScale setting is wonky which is giving you the large voltage reading - it should be around 31.05 V/V. Write down what it is since it's a factory calibration unique to your unit and post back with the value. If it's far from that setting, try the typical 31.05 V/V setting as a test and see if the voltage looks more reasonable. If not, you will need to email ebikes.ca for advice, because something odd is afoot.

If you wish to calibrate the voltage reading, you can hook a good quality meter up to your battery and diddle Cal->VScale until the CA matches the meter. Nothing electrically Bad will come of this, and it may get you on the road if there are delays getting to the bottom of the factory calibration issue.

 

[rocam]

The ride home was pretty jumpy with the motor cutting off all the time. I wonder if the battery BMS is limiting.

What I saw on the display is the high voltage of 64 ish, then the amps rushing up to 99.0 but really it's all over the place. the watts were up to 5-6k.

Now I flashed to the Prelim 6 software, and the display is still reading 64 V. I had a Cal Rshunt of 2.766 in the CAV3 and have now changed that to 3.61 that is printed on the side of the controller.

Other Calibration settigs are Range=Lo,

I reset the Zero Amps by holding the right button (had actually done this before as part of my troubleshooting) and it says 2.51V 2.51V afterwards - it was the same before. the last digits can be flickering like it's a live update and just on the border between 0 and 1.

The Cal Vscale was 49.95 V/V. Now set at 31.05 V/V (I have access to a voltmeter at work and can test the battery when I am there on Thursday)

I can say the Voltage reading looks quite good now. 39.5 V.

Let me take it out and check how the thing runs and get back to you in 20 mins!

 

[rocam]

It was much better now. There is still a little jumpyness in the reaction of the throttle (compared to when the throttle was directly connected to the controller without any CA) but now it's more like the reaction time is 300-500ms longer than it was and very sensetive to small changes in my twist, maybe I can play with the settings for Throttle In and Out to correct that. There is anyway no complete cut-off like earlier.

The Amps and Watts readings are still unrealistic. At 25kph It's showing still 40-60 Amps and 2-3000 watts and I don't have that kind of kit I'm sure

The battery says Max Peak discharge 30 Amps, Max continuous discharge 25 Amps. The controller was advertised as 25 Amps, so I assume it won't draw any more from the battery.

 

[teklektik]

Well, a little progress anyhow....

The throttle issues can be addressed by switching to current or power throttle - but best to hold off on that until this other stuff is squared away - too many variables to cloud diagnosis... stick with Passthru throttle for now.

It's unclear how your unit lost the calibration, but there are some internal factory calibration settings that are not user-settable. Assuming that somehow you had some EEPROM corruption, let's reset everything to 'reasonable' values and try again. (Here I'm assuming you did the usual loose-connector checks, etc )

1. Go to the special Grin V3 page and download theCA3B19 Hex File and flash your unit with that. This will put 'good' defaults in place for calibration. These typically vary only a couple of percent from the delivered per-unit factory calibraion values (which we don't know are good) so there is no big loss.
   
2. Flash v3.0p6 on top of it. This will drop in the new firmware but leave the b19 calibration settings in place.
3. Repeat all the configuration stuff above.

This will put your unit in a 100% 'known state'. It will either solve the issue or give you a known setup to jump-start further investigation by Grin Support Folks.

Alternatively - you can email Grin and point them to this thread, etc. to get the very best advice at the outset - they are very quick at getting back. You seem to have done everything properly and had some odd factory settings, so it's clear you are dealing with a difficulty that is not normal.... I'd do the b19 flash myself (actually have dozens of times during Beta testing), but you should proceed with what makes you the most comfortable...

 

[teklektik]

BTW - If you resolve this with Grin, please post back with the tale - this is an interesting problem...

 

[rocam]

Hi Teklektik,

We did it!

I did like you suggested and flashed the old B19 HEX then up to Prelim 6. It must mean the unit had previously an older SW version "If you have a way old unit with Beta15, then you will first need to program with the CA3B19 file below, and then after that with the latest code."

Everything looks correct now after the flash and running through the settings you suggested. The Rshunt was at 1.0 m Ohms by default and I put that to 3.61 again, but the VScale was already at 31.05 V/V.

I was out for short test trip again and everything is working perfectly. The throttle is no longer jumpy, and the Watts match what should be expected from the kit (just a bit under 900 watts at full throttle) The battery consumption also works and looks like it's reasonable. I tried making a second mode and with limitation of 250W and 30 KPH and it worked just fine - smooth as well

I really appreciate the time you used here to help get this working for me, and I really feel that I have started to learn stuff THANKS!

 

[teklektik]

Excellent news! Thanks for posting back with the resolution.