Liability when selling lipo question

[Eujangles]

Hi All,

I'm planning to sell my bike this summer (not abandoning the hobby, just going on a trip and want to do a new build when I return), and am wondering about personal liability when it comes to the battery pack.

I will of course give all fair warnings to any potential buyer, but I know how it can go. Some dumbass will say "yeah yeah, got it" when I explain the dangers, then promptly blow themselves to pieces. Do you guys think that I, as the seller, would have any liability in this scenario? I am worried that if I write some kind of waiver up, it will dissuade potential buyers, so I do not want to go that route (we all know how hard it is to get anything close to fair value for a used ebike already).

My apologies if there is already a thread on this, but I did try to search and couldn't find really anything on this.

Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to weigh in! I'm not expecting any lawyer-type responses, maybe more just your own thoughts and experiences on this.

Cheers

 

[Bill Nye the science guy]

give a receipt stating the bike ,the day, buyers name ,your name, signatures, and state "sold as is "

works for crappy cars :|

 

[dnmun]

why would someone blow themselves to pieces if they bot your bike? would they blow themselves to pieces if they instead went to the theatre?

 

[Sunder]

I'm no lawyer, but generally a reseller of a product has no liability, it falls on the manufacturer.

However, if the bike was hand built... all bets are off.

 

[dogman dan]

Personally, under USA law, I would never resell an RC lipo battery. Not unless I was well insured for the activity.

Caveat, maybe just sell the battery packs only, as an unmodified item. But if you put packs into a "bike battery" for a kit you "assembled", I'd say you are taking a huge risk in US courts.

I've no clue how it is in Canada, but in the US they sue everybody they can get a chunk of however small.

Reselling a production ebike you never modified would be without risk.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I agree with dogman. I would just say that the bike is for sale, but the battery is all worn out, and is not included. Either that or say the battery is already sold to someone else.

 

[MadRhino]

I sell my old bikes with fresh lipo, bulk charging station, RC charger and cell monitors.
I ride a few times with the buyer, and we charge battery packs together.
I explain every aspect of bike and battery maintenance.

I give no receipt, cash only.
Tell the guy it is illegal and from now on, he is responsible for it as if he had built it himself.

 

[bigmoose]

As stated above, anyone can sue anyone for anything in US courts... at least that is what my attorney always says when I ask a liability question!

What might give you peace of mind is to develop a bill of sale on one side of a sheet off paper that references an agreement to "the terms on the back." On the back of the page, in small print spell out the fact that the bike is sold as is, where is. That there is no warranty implied. ... that all risk is assumed by the buyer... etc. Basically a "hold harmless" waiver. There are examples on the internet.

Make two copies, both of you sign them. Tell him it protects both of you to have a valid "bill of sale."

I am not an attorney, and therefore this is just a suggestion for further research. < got to put my own disclaimer in here!

 

[grindz145]

There is alot of risk in selling batteries. I would recommend selling it without batteries unless you know the seller and trust their competence.

 

[CroArcher]

Sell outside United States of Attorneys

 

[dogman dan]

Anybody know if it's that bad in Canada though? It sure is in the USA.

Risk is a touchy thing, often it's best not to look at the chances of it going bad are big or small, but what the lawyers could do to you if the worst happened?

As a limited liability corporation selling an ebike, at least they can't take your house. But a dude selling an ebike in the USA they could. There's the problem as I see it.

Sell it without the battery makes the new owner liable for that risk at least. The risk he hurts himself on the bike because you bolted it together is not such a big risk. He might get a loose handlebar and try to sue you for the injury, but nobody died in a fire in a case like that.

 

[el_walto]

Buy some SLA, sell it with the SLA.

I'd never sell a bike with Lipo if it requires any kind of monitoring from the user. If the user cant plug it in with one connector and also ride it until it's dead without any worries, you are asking for it. Also, if BMS drained voltage below safe point, it should refuse to charge.

 

[mwkeefer]

Personally I only sell lipo built bikes with inboard BMS protection, proper fusing, etc. Once that's in place, I obtain a waiver of liability, acknowledgement of risk and danger associated with the bike and the battery system - including the words "Even if used as intended or directed" also "purchaser is required to determine and comply with all local, state and federal laws" - There are a few other caveats but check out an automobile or motorcycle style bill of sale contract, then replace motorcycle with Electric Bicycle.

Just make sure they know exactly what is needed, and be sure to get them to sign off on any and all liability issues.

Just my .02

-Mike

 

[Eujangles]

Thanks everybody for all the replies! Looks like the best solution will be to make a waiver, or sell it without the battery. I'm also considering just buying one of those cheap bmsbattery bottle batteries so I can at least sell it as a working ebike. I can keep the lipo for my next project I suppose. Annoying though: my controller will be too powerful for the bottle battery, so I would have to buy a different one as well. Sucks to have to spend money just to sell it haha.

@Dogman, it's not as bad in Canada (most silly lawsuits just get thrown out of court immediately, and most lawyers here won't even take such cases), but if something really bad did happen (injury or fire), yeah I think it would proceed to court, even out here.

@dnmun, um...not sure how to answer that. Lipo batteries can be dangerous...all I am wondering is for my own liability as the seller if someone causes accident or injury with the battery attached to the bike I am selling...

Thanks again everyone!

 

[mwkeefer]

Really man... proper waiver, also not just electric bike in wording but "Prototype", that will extend full indemnity to anything you've built... If your lipo has bms / hvc,lvc and doesn't require paralleling of multiple packs.. Just sell it with tr lipo and the Prototype Electric Bike, this is how I sell any high powered one off which is how I've been making a living the last while

Regards,
Mike

 

[Bill Nye the science guy]

Canada is just as bad. you may be right in every aspect of the law but the legal fees will bankrupt you to get there.

if an insurance company has a loss they blanket sue everybody involved, settle out of court if you wish, and recoup some of their losses.

but I don't think we have precedent laws, where a supreme court ruling sets a precedent for all further rulings. I think Canada is case by case.

 

[wineboyrider]

HATE LAWYERS