LiFePO4 Battery Showdown!

I would also expect the two-fuse components to be replaced in the future by a circuit breaker like a "shot-stop" found in electric mowers and power windows.

Fuses are a pain for everybody, but protection of some sort is a must.
 
oatnet said:
I missed that 18lb stat! So 36lbs for a 72v lithium pack :shock: . I am pretty sure that my 36v10a LiMn from FalconEV weighs 10.2 lbs, and is packaged in a solid metal case. I think the 15ah LiMn was 12.5lbs, so on them the case counts for a good bit.

-JD

My entire 36V/10ah li-ion, Bionx battery box, with case & controller is only 10LBs.
However, 16ah would be ideal for my touring habits, but 10ah definately works 90% of the time. Li-mn must be one of the lightest batteries around.
 
Wow, the case weighs more than the cells... that seems like a flaw. On most electric vehicles, the needless weight would be very hard to accept, and in a fully-enclosed vehicle such as a car/bus/truck, which appears to be the intended use, the extra-durable case is almost unnecessary anyway, I would think.
 
possibly,
however i think they are trying to make a kit setup that is *nearly* indestructable in terms of a battery setup. High reliability comes at a price, in this case weight.

I can forsee larger packs being made in the future with more cells as the demand arises for EV-Car sized packs.
 
Hmmm. There is a good chance that I'd buy about 50 to 60 of loose PHET cells for my #2 e-bike project this week at anywhere near the 'advertised' price. But no way would I be interested in the complete modules, probably ever.

Of course if A123 ramps up production of their cells as they should, and starts selling loose cells at a reasonable price, I would be buying them exclusively until there is a major new leap forward in battery technology.
 
From the pictures of the BMS, I'd guess the FETs and shunt are there to provide current limiting. The fuses should never blow unless the circuit fails, in which case you have more than just fuses to replace.

I've used the automotive power window type circuit breakers before. They do the job, but are a bit slow to trip and seem to have a bit more resistance than a fuse. They're more expensive too.

Bob, how many cells does each BMS circuit handle?

It seems like a waste to have multiple shunts/FETs in series if you stack the units. It does allow changing configurations easier.
 
There are four cells per 12V/10Ah block.

Bob, is the BMS connected to each cell junction? Where do the smaller wires go to? It would need access to each cell to do LVC at the cell level. I'm not sure how they would do balancing, as it would need to dissapate more heat if it worked the way most RC balancers work If there were some sort of clamping system, to limit the voltage a cell sees, thee's have to be more FETS, right? I'm guessing that it does individual cell monitoring, for the LVC function, and maybe temp monitoring, but not cell balancing, per se. There is the upper 4.0V limit for over-charging, so maybe that's all that is needed?

It is disappointing that the BMS is limiting these to 5C, or 50A. The cells are suposed to be good for 10C continuous. What sets these cells and the a123s apart from the typical Chinese LiFe offerings is their ability to provide much higher current levels. The Eonyx pack needs to be 20Ah, just to be able to handle a 40-50A load. I think 90% of users don't need more than 10Ah of capacity, 90% of the time. The 50A fuse in these is a last line of defense, it seems, so I'm guessing the RISC controller-based current limiter is set for something lower than that. If it is 40A, that will still work with many setups, but probably not some of the ones people are using here, with modified controllers.

As for the weight issue, at 9 pounds for 12, that means each cell weighs 3/4 pounds, or 340 gm. That's about 34 gm per Ah. A single 2.3Ah a123-M1 cell weghs 72 gm, or about 31 gm per Ah, which is pretty close. Clearly, all the "extra" weight is in the nuclear blast survivable cases. :)

I definitely think we need some "ebike-friendlier" packaging for these. In most of the setups that would be candidates for these, I would think 48V, not 36V would be a more common configuration, which would mean 25 pounds for a 10Ah pack. It should really be about half of that.

-- Gary
 
Look for some news when LiFeBATT's website changes tomorrow or Friday. Bad news is delivery on complete packs will now be January, 2008. Good news, you will be able to buy Raw Cells in November, 2007.

BTW, each cell weighs almost a pound for those who were speculating :D

Cheers!

Don Harmon
http://www.lifebatt.com

 
GGoodrum said:
I definitely think we need some "ebike-friendlier" packaging for these. 48V, not 36V would be a more common configuration, which would mean 25 pounds for a 10Ah pack. It should really be about half of that.-- Gary

You got the weight almost right on, at under 1LB per cell, and your wish for individual cells has also come true, Woo hoo! :D
I'd like 48 volts also, separated into two packs, 24-V per side.
With the new information, that would be 16 LBs of batteries :) much better 8)
 
Don Harmon said:
Look for some news when LiFeBATT's website changes tomorrow or Friday. Bad news is delivery on complete packs will now be January, 2008. Good news, you will be able to buy Raw Cells in November, 2007.

BTW, each cell weighs almost a pound for those who were speculating :D

Cheers!

Don Harmon
http://www.lifebatt.com

Hi Don --

Great news, re: the raw cells being available next month. I'm looking forward to checking out your updated website.

-- Gary
 
Thanks for the picture Don.
Looks like all we have to do is hot glue the bodies together, screw a nut on with proper connector loops crimped to the ends of the wires for a compression fit.
 
recumbent said:
Thanks for the picture Don.
Looks like all we have to do is hot glue the bodies together, screw a nut on with proper connector loops crimped to the ends of the wires for a compression fit.

OR, you can work with Bob McCree and add a competent BMS should you desire to go a little more high-tech?

Best,

Don
 
16 of these cells 2*8 packs for like 880 +sh for 52v 10 ah with warranty Sounds like that's what I am looking for price can improve but we are getting there Thanks lifebatt your going to be lifesaver.

i am gonna need the cells last so in couple months time that's so far my first choce for battery pack awsome!!


regards

efreak
 
16 of these cells 2*8 packs for like 880 +sh for 52v 10 ah with warranty Sounds like that's what I am looking for price can improve but we are getting there Thanks lifebatt your going to be lifesaver.


There is no suchthing is 52V, 16 cells makes 24V/10Ah, we are not sure what you are talking about?

Best,

Don
 
Most people miss this link on our website:http://www.lifebatt.com/LiFeBATT%20Web_5.html

Our cells are 3.3V/10Ah.
Best,

Don
 
Don Harmon said:
recumbent said:
Thanks for the picture Don.
Looks like all we have to do is hot glue the bodies together, screw a nut on with proper connector loops crimped to the ends of the wires for a compression fit.

OR, you can work with Bob McCree and add a competent BMS should you desire to go a little more high-tech?

Best,

Don

That's exactly what I had in mind. I'm hoping he'll do an expanded version of the simple LVC circuit he described in the schematics thread in the Technical forum, to include a balancing function.

-- Gary
 
Bob is our Man for working with LiFeBATT raw cells! He's already developing some good stuff and we highly recommend you contact him until we can bring out our new VMS boards.

Don Harmon
 
Don Harmon said:
Bob is our Man for working with LiFeBATT raw cells! He's already developing some good stuff and we highly recommend you contact him until we can bring out our new VMS boards.

Good to hear, I already know what I want by March 2008, which is the same as many other folks on this board:

2 X 24volt packs wired with BMS & fuse & connector plug, shrinkwrapped together, one for each side of pannier. Without the heavy plastic packaging.

Your new site is nice and clear, $55 per cell for raw order and 1500-2000 cycles is just wonderful.

I read someplace that lithium prices are going down, is it possible prices will drop in a few months?
 
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