LiFePO4 Battery Showdown!
- Thread starter brandonh
- Start date
GGoodrum
1 MW
Don Harmon said:
I think you got quite a bit to go before making statements/claims such as these. I will give you an edge on convenient packaging and capacity, but the a123 cells have a proven track record, with better specs in every measurable category. A few nice looking PDF's are not enough to provide credibile evidence that these will be anywhere near as good, much less better.
That said, I do think these will probably prove to work quite well in many EV applications. We'll know soon enough if they will be a good fit for our ebike applications.
One thing I would like to have a better understanding of just what this mandatory VMS board actually does. I assume it does low-voltage protection, and probably has an active cutoff, but what else? Will it, for instance, when combined with the required charger, automatically balance the cells?
-- Gary
recumbent
100 kW
Woo Hoo! Thanks Don, just what the doctor odered, we'll call you Dr. Don who fixed our ailment.
Like to get mine from a Canadien supplier but either way count me in as 48-60 volts, January or even March unless we have a year-end sale happening. I've got the money and i like the battery.
Thanks for coming back to us, we need help. :?
Like to get mine from a Canadien supplier but either way count me in as 48-60 volts, January or even March unless we have a year-end sale happening. I've got the money and i like the battery.
Thanks for coming back to us, we need help. :?
GGoodrum said:
There's no way for us to know if these batteries will hold up for 3 years until 3 years from now. Right about building a track record. Even the A123s have their share of failures.
That's why it's important for us "testers" to test these things out under real-life conditions. Or even under 'extreme' conditions
Sort of like beta testing. Batteries have long been one of the primary obstacles to widespread adoption of electric transportation. If Don develops a good product with a good track record, and it's cheaper than A123, he'll be in a good market position. It will only be a matter of time before some company actually produces a decent e-bike for a reasonable cost.
Yes, when used in conjunction with our VMS Boards & Chargers, the whole system will balance the LiFeBATT Cells. As for the comments about A123 Specs being better in every way - I would like to see a published A123 Cell Spec. so that you may illustrate you mean?
Don Harmon
Don Harmon
Jozzer
100 kW
To be fair Don, they do seem to be leading the market (are lifebatt nanotech?)
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf
However, theres no real need for e-bike (or most EV) batteries to discharge at 30c +... since we mostly want more than 2 mins run time on our bikes :lol: As long as Lifebatt survive 5c or a little better they will do fine in 95% of applications. (except this... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKwHDQnK44 )
Edited to add, also, they are currently not interested in the small time market, and theres no sign of an EV type BMS coming from them, which would allow them to safetly guarentee thier cells for reasonable periods of time...
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf
However, theres no real need for e-bike (or most EV) batteries to discharge at 30c +... since we mostly want more than 2 mins run time on our bikes :lol: As long as Lifebatt survive 5c or a little better they will do fine in 95% of applications. (except this... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKwHDQnK44 )
Edited to add, also, they are currently not interested in the small time market, and theres no sign of an EV type BMS coming from them, which would allow them to safetly guarentee thier cells for reasonable periods of time...
Jozzer said:
Jozzer: In all fairness the A123 Spec. Sheet you link to is a much smaller format cell than the LiFeBATT Cell. This A123 is an 18650 Cell while our cells are 40138. It also has a 2.3 Ah rating while the LiFeBATT Cell is 10 Ah. As far as the spec. goes Nanotech and Phostech are basically trademarks for Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and for all intents & purposes are identical. Small changes in forumulas being granted.
I believe anyone who compares our LiFeBATT 40138 Cell Specs with A123 will concur that they are on the same playing field. Granted A123 has been around longer, but as you pointed out, they really have made NO effort to address the needs of the e-bike market, now have they?
http://www.lifebatt.com/LiFeBATT%20Web_5.html
Attached is our Cell Spec. in case you haven't seen it before and in case you want to make some direct comparisons with A123. Keep in mind, these smaller A123 Cells require 3 times the number of cells to make the sampe pack that LiFeBATT can do with 1/3 the number of cells. Makes the VMS that much more efficient in managing our packs. Plus our threaded posts require no spot welding or soldering !
Cheers!
Don Harmon
GGoodrum
1 MW
I see Steve beat me to the punch with the published specs, but clearly the 26-series a123 cells are better. The new, larger, 32-series, being developed for the Chevy Volt and for other hybrids and plug-in hybrids, are even stronger, but sadly, it will be quite some time before these are available for use in smaller EVs. Maybe that can change, who knows. In the meantime, it is still pretty easy to get the 2.3Ah cells for about $10 each, shipped. I've got many RC packs that have hundreds of cycles on them and are as strong as the first day I used them, and this is in high-powered RC helicopters where they get 10-times the abuse you'd ever see in an ebike.
The only reason we need to worry about warranty for LiFeBatt cells is because they are as yet, unproven. With a123 cells I know if I simply protect againt running the cells down too far, they will keep on truckin'
If we can get to the same level of confidence with the LiFeBatt cells, I think you will do well with these.
-- Gary
The only reason we need to worry about warranty for LiFeBatt cells is because they are as yet, unproven. With a123 cells I know if I simply protect againt running the cells down too far, they will keep on truckin'
If we can get to the same level of confidence with the LiFeBatt cells, I think you will do well with these.-- Gary
Drunkskunk
100 GW
Don Harmon said:
Thanks. This is exactly what the industry needs. While I couldn't have mounted the Lifebatt Case on my bike, I should easily be able to mount the 24 individual cells.
24 cells should be able to be stacked into a brick 9.06 X 6.04 X 6 inches. A usable size for essentualy 1 horsepower/hour of power. 768 watts.
GGoodrum
1 MW
Don Harmon said:
This is not correct. The a123 cells are actually 26mm in diameter, not 18, like some of the other LiIon cells out there.
GGoodrum
1 MW
Don Harmon said:
Actually, even though the cells have 1/4th the capacity, they still have much better performance. If you parallel four a123s together you end up with a continuous current rating of 280A, and a burst rating of 480A, vs 120A and 140A for the LiFeBatt cells. Also, there is a big difference in how the cells are constructed. A123Systems' propriietary nanotechology manufacturing technique results in electrodes with lithium cyrstals that are orders of magnitude smaller than any of the Chinese LiFePo4 variants, including the LiFeBatt cells. This is what makes the cells perform so much better, and the main reason why GM is dumping a ton of money into a123Systems in order to accelerate development of the larger format cells.. This is a lot more than "trademark" differences.
As for the BMS/VMS issue, I think you are missing the mark here as well. You are forcing people to use an expensive VMS board for every four cells. In 90% of the ebike applications here, people will want a minimum of 48V setups, or at least 8 cells. In my case, I would like to use 10 cells and that means I'd need three boards, with one only being half-used. Each of these boards have positive cutoff of power, as part of the LVC protection implementation, which means these will need fairly high-powered FETs, to switch that power, which means more heat that has to be dealt with somehow. The controllers already have a way to cut the load on the packs if need be and by using a dollar's worth of parts per cell, a VERY simple LVC protection circuit can be implemented. Here's what a 10s 9.2Ah a123-based pack looks like with such a protection circuit:
Granted, it takes more cells, but the total cost for something like the pack shown above is about $450. To get anything close to this with LiFeBatts, it would be at least $550 for the cells and then another $150 for three VMS boards, for a total of $700. In actuality, I'd have to buy 12 cells in order to get 10, plus three chargers at $155 each, and I'd still have to figure out how to package/mount the cells.
-- Gary
GGoodrum
1 MW
Just out of curiosity, what would you sell the cells for with no warranty at all? I would much prefer to go back to my original plan and do a much simplified LVC protection circuit that ties into the controller, and do my own 10-cell auto charger/balancer.
Jozzer
100 kW
Gary is right Don. Your cells don't have to compete with A123 for full specs, and ARE better suited for us due to thier size, and you ARE trying to help us small EV users. I appreciate this very much.
I asked Ian to tip you off that your site was offering misinformation on both A123 cells AND the telsa car, you see, offering misinformation about your competitors is not a great way to gain trust and respect from anyone who knows well enough to see it.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I fully support you, and am looking forward to trying your product (especially since I already put my money where my mouth is).
I am surprised you have not even tried an A123 cell so you knew what to expect when trying to sell in the same market.
Personally, I don't think you need to convince us with your words, when your cells get here, and perform well in my aplication, I, and all the others who are trying them will tell everyone what they are like, and do much of this work for you! (just like we do with A123 right now....if anyone asks me, I tell them "these batteries are GREAT, if you can afford them dont consider any other", as will anybody who has used them!)
I hope this comes across in the right way, I would hate to upset anyone...
Steve
I asked Ian to tip you off that your site was offering misinformation on both A123 cells AND the telsa car, you see, offering misinformation about your competitors is not a great way to gain trust and respect from anyone who knows well enough to see it.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I fully support you, and am looking forward to trying your product (especially since I already put my money where my mouth is).
I am surprised you have not even tried an A123 cell so you knew what to expect when trying to sell in the same market.
Personally, I don't think you need to convince us with your words, when your cells get here, and perform well in my aplication, I, and all the others who are trying them will tell everyone what they are like, and do much of this work for you! (just like we do with A123 right now....if anyone asks me, I tell them "these batteries are GREAT, if you can afford them dont consider any other", as will anybody who has used them!)
I hope this comes across in the right way, I would hate to upset anyone...
Steve
Jozzer
100 kW
GGoodrum said:
THere on sale on the uk site for the equivilent of about $55 Gary.. http://www.lifebatt.co.uk/order.htm
GGoodrum said:
The following changes to the website will show as follows:
1. 12V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 455.00 USD (3 Year Warranty)
2. 24V/20 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,308.00 USD(3 Year Warranty)
3. 24V/40 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 2,415.00 USD(3 Year Warranty)
4. Box of (4) Individual Cells & (1) VMS Board (2 Year Warranty) = $ 270.00 USD + Shipping
5. Box of (8) Individual Cells & (2) VMS Boards (2 Year Warranty) = $ 540.00 USD +Shipping
6. Box of (4) Individual Cells - No VMS, No Charger (3 Month Warranty) = $ 220.00 USD + Shipping
7. Box of (8) Individual Cells - No VMS, No Charger (3 Month Warranty) = $ 440.00 USD + Shipping
Chargers: Will be available in 12V, 24V & 36V Models. Purchase of our LiFeBATT Charger must accompany the purchase of the Individual Cell Packs & VMS Boards in order to maintain the 2 Year Warranty Protection! All Chargers carry a One Year Warranty!
12V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 155.00 USD + Shipping
24V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 165.00 USD + Shipping
36V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 175.00 USD + Shipping
Please allow overnite for the LiFeBATT Website to show the above changes. Thanks for everybody's input on this vital issue! I hope we have finally satisfied most of you ?
Best,
Don Harmon
EMF
100 kW
Don edit your post to add a space between the number 8 and the parentheses. It will get rid of that annoying emoticon and help others checking this post in the future to understand. e.g. ( 8 )
Ypedal
100 TW
Quote "I hope we have finally satisfied most of you ? Best,
Don Harmon "
Thank you !
ps :you will never.. NEVER.. satisfy everyone, that's a given, keep your chin up high and the cells comming !!!!!
I'll be getting in line roughly March 08 !
8)
Don Harmon "
Thank you !
ps :you will never.. NEVER.. satisfy everyone, that's a given, keep your chin up high and the cells comming !!!!!
I'll be getting in line roughly March 08 !
8)
GGoodrum
1 MW
Don Harmon said:
I'm good, thanks.
Freddyflatfoot
1 kW
Hi all,
Just to let you know that I opened up the links to LifeBatt today.....................and got a virus warning!
the virus was - VBS.mondezimia!html
Dunno if Don has had someone hijack his site or not, but I'm a bit pissed that this happened! And to the work computer as well!
So before anyone checks the LifeBatt site, be warned!
Cheers,
Rob
Just to let you know that I opened up the links to LifeBatt today.....................and got a virus warning!
the virus was - VBS.mondezimia!html
Dunno if Don has had someone hijack his site or not, but I'm a bit pissed that this happened! And to the work computer as well!
So before anyone checks the LifeBatt site, be warned!
Cheers,
Rob
The following changes to the website will show as follows:
1. 12V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 455.00 USD (3 Year Warranty)
2. 24V/20 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,308.00 USD(3 Year Warranty)
3. 24V/40 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 2,415.00 USD(3 Year Warranty)
4. Box of (4) Individual Cells & (1) VMS Board (2 Year Warranty) = $ 270.00 USD + Shipping
5. Box of ( 8 ) Individual Cells & (2) VMS Boards (2 Year Warranty) = $ 540.00 USD +Shipping
6. Box of (4) Individual Cells - No VMS, No Charger (3 Month Warranty) = $ 220.00 USD + Shipping
7. Box of ( 8 ) Individual Cells - No VMS, No Charger (3 Month Warranty) = $ 440.00 USD + Shipping
Chargers: Will be available in 12V, 24V & 36V Models. Purchase of our LiFeBATT Charger must accompany the purchase of the Individual Cell Packs & VMS Boards in order to maintain the 2 Year Warranty Protection! All Chargers carry a One Year Warranty!
12V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 155.00 USD + Shipping
24V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 165.00 USD + Shipping
36V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 175.00 USD + Shipping
Please allow overnite for the LiFeBATT Website to show the above changes. Thanks for everybody's input on this vital issue! I hope we have finally satisfied most of you ?
Best,
Don Harmon
http://www.lifebatt.com
1. 12V/10 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 455.00 USD (3 Year Warranty)
2. 24V/20 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 1,308.00 USD(3 Year Warranty)
3. 24V/40 Ah Module Pack with BMS, Charger + Shipping = $ 2,415.00 USD(3 Year Warranty)
4. Box of (4) Individual Cells & (1) VMS Board (2 Year Warranty) = $ 270.00 USD + Shipping
5. Box of ( 8 ) Individual Cells & (2) VMS Boards (2 Year Warranty) = $ 540.00 USD +Shipping
6. Box of (4) Individual Cells - No VMS, No Charger (3 Month Warranty) = $ 220.00 USD + Shipping
7. Box of ( 8 ) Individual Cells - No VMS, No Charger (3 Month Warranty) = $ 440.00 USD + Shipping
Chargers: Will be available in 12V, 24V & 36V Models. Purchase of our LiFeBATT Charger must accompany the purchase of the Individual Cell Packs & VMS Boards in order to maintain the 2 Year Warranty Protection! All Chargers carry a One Year Warranty!
12V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 155.00 USD + Shipping
24V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 165.00 USD + Shipping
36V LiFeBATT Charger with automatic cut-off protection = $ 175.00 USD + Shipping
Please allow overnite for the LiFeBATT Website to show the above changes. Thanks for everybody's input on this vital issue! I hope we have finally satisfied most of you ?
Best,
Don Harmon
http://www.lifebatt.com
Freddyflatfoot said:Hi all,
Just to let you know that I opened up the links to LifeBatt today.....................and got a virus warning!
the virus was - VBS.mondezimia!html
Dunno if Don has had someone hijack his site or not, but I'm a bit pissed that this happened! And to the work computer as well!
So before anyone checks the LifeBatt site, be warned!
Cheers,
Rob
Freddy, you might want to check YOUR computer. Our web provider had their programmers look into this and found NO VIRUS present on our website. It would be a very strange thing to get a virus from visiting a legitimate business website. Just so people know - there is no reason to believe this report from Freddy!
Thanks,
Don Harmon
Similar threads
