'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive
- Thread starter Grantmac
- Start date
To be totally honest, i'm treated special because i helped them build their company back in 2011. They told me that these new models were just being tested and offered to get me one early. I would expect their listings to be updated in a few weeks.
IGHs have 4% ( Rohloff ) to 15% ( CVT ) more friction than a derailleur setup. Unless we're talking about a 4-5lbs Rohloff or '9x9' then the more gears you get, the weaker they get.
That plus their weight is a thing.
Cassettes max out at 12 gears ( making a strength compromise as a result ) and this drive has higher efficiency so i don't think these extra 2 gears in a Rohloff would make a big difference in bike efficiency since we're constantly taking a penalty. I think it could only make sense on human power TBH. But if you're on human power, you haven't lost your front gears on the crank in the first place, so..
That plus their weight is a thing.
Cassettes max out at 12 gears ( making a strength compromise as a result ) and this drive has higher efficiency so i don't think these extra 2 gears in a Rohloff would make a big difference in bike efficiency since we're constantly taking a penalty. I think it could only make sense on human power TBH. But if you're on human power, you haven't lost your front gears on the crank in the first place, so..
Are they finally making 72v packs again?
I'm sorry to hear this but at the same time i feel more grateful to be out of there since '09!
Interesting story about Italy, EU countries are ultra draconian so it's no wonder basically anything we order from there looks highly overregulated by design.
These are good points but the Rohloff is still out for me, dual chainring all the way.
Still waiting for a response on the price of converting the lightest over.
No idea, i would guess the answer is no.
None of those laws are enforced here in my area, you would be surprised.
They got copy pasted in the 2010's and haven't changed since.
I see gas bikes all over trails. And generally nobody cares.
I see totally illegal gas mopeds and scooters here and there too, in the car lane even, cops don't care.
You can legally drive an ATV on the street in some counties.
Moab is very different than the Salt Lake area and has special ebike rules because it's a tourist town and bike snob town.
They've had ebike laws on the books for ages but the cops don't even know what an ebike is and they have better fish to fry.
I've passed cops in an adjacent lane doing 35-40 and they're just like whatever
We don't have predatory policing in UT like they do in CA so i'm not concerned. The one exception is the southern border where they will pull you over in a car for anything ( this is a drug smuggling route). Don't worry about me or worry for me.
They got copy pasted in the 2010's and haven't changed since.
I see gas bikes all over trails. And generally nobody cares.
I see totally illegal gas mopeds and scooters here and there too, in the car lane even, cops don't care.
You can legally drive an ATV on the street in some counties.
Moab is very different than the Salt Lake area and has special ebike rules because it's a tourist town and bike snob town.
They've had ebike laws on the books for ages but the cops don't even know what an ebike is and they have better fish to fry.
I've passed cops in an adjacent lane doing 35-40 and they're just like whatever
We don't have predatory policing in UT like they do in CA so i'm not concerned. The one exception is the southern border where they will pull you over in a car for anything ( this is a drug smuggling route). Don't worry about me or worry for me.
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raylo32
100 kW
So, what form factor is this new 19 ah battery? Is it a triangle similar to the old version? I assume they will keep making the same range of form factors, just UL certified.
raylo32
100 kW
Unfortunately what happens is that when something like e-biking grows exponentially there will always be a bunch of yahoos that disregard common sense and courtesy which will lead to a crack down. I have biked a lot here on the C&O towpath and IIRC there is a 15 mph speed limit but you can safely ride faster on the isolated parts, pedal bike or e-bike. But when there are walkers, dogs, strollers, oncoming traffic, etc. you need to slow down and be courteous and make gentle passes. There will always be some who don't and won't and that's what will screw the pooch for the rest of us. In the past there were always a few lycra clad guys trying to time trial. But e-bikes open up those high speeds to the much more numerous rabble.
Another example is remote controlled aircraft, or radio control modeling. It was a great hobby for decades, but then along came drones that make it easy and cheap for even a 6 year old to fly. The exponential growth of that inevitably includes many less than responsible people. So, now we all have to deal with FAA registration, insurance and all that nonsense. It sucks, for sure.
Another example is remote controlled aircraft, or radio control modeling. It was a great hobby for decades, but then along came drones that make it easy and cheap for even a 6 year old to fly. The exponential growth of that inevitably includes many less than responsible people. So, now we all have to deal with FAA registration, insurance and all that nonsense. It sucks, for sure.
None of those laws are enforced here in my area, you would be surprised.
They got copy pasted in the 2010's and haven't changed since.
I see gas bikes all over trails. And generally nobody cares.
I see totally illegal gas mopeds and scooters here and there too, in the car lane even, cops don't care.
You can legally drive an ATV on the street in some counties.
Moab is very different than the Salt Lake area and has special ebike rules because it's a tourist town and bike snob town.
They've had ebike laws on the books for ages but the cops don't even know what an ebike is and they have better fish to fry.
I've passed cops in an adjacent lane doing 35-40 and they're just like whatever
We don't have predatory policing in UT like they do in CA so i'm not concerned. The one exception is the southern border where they will pull you over in a car for anything ( this is a drug smuggling route). Don't worry about me or worry for me.
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Raylo32, i hear you.
Where i live has the combination of awful weather that discourages most people from bicycling, a low population, and an above average percentage of nice people.
We don't have the 'packs of ebikers behaving badly' problem out here and 100% of my high speed riding is on street while pedaling in the first place, I cut the motor when i'm around people and give them a wide berth so i don't have 'trail problems' but >90% of my riding is street.
Nobody cares about your illegal 2 wheeler out here and as long as you don't ride like a jerk with yours, you won't have issues.
You can also have an insanely modified gas or diesel car here. They will only bust you for it when the EPA forces them to do it.
I'm just saying for every place that has ended up with draconian ebike laws, there's another 9 places that don't care about your bicycle at all.
Where i live has the combination of awful weather that discourages most people from bicycling, a low population, and an above average percentage of nice people.
We don't have the 'packs of ebikers behaving badly' problem out here and 100% of my high speed riding is on street while pedaling in the first place, I cut the motor when i'm around people and give them a wide berth so i don't have 'trail problems' but >90% of my riding is street.
Nobody cares about your illegal 2 wheeler out here and as long as you don't ride like a jerk with yours, you won't have issues.
You can also have an insanely modified gas or diesel car here. They will only bust you for it when the EPA forces them to do it.
I'm just saying for every place that has ended up with draconian ebike laws, there's another 9 places that don't care about your bicycle at all.
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raylo32
100 kW
Things can change but my attitude is that freedom is an endangered species ( & you can't do anything about this ) so you better enjoy it to the fullest while you still have it.
Look forward to hot rodding this motor but i would also like to quiet it down to maintain a lower profile.
Look forward to hot rodding this motor but i would also like to quiet it down to maintain a lower profile.
I have some experience with IGHs. Only one able to take full power of 1kw mid drives are 3 speeds, though shimano and legacy sachs / srams are way better then SA since the takeover by sunrace. The newer shimano 5 speed has supposedly been developped with middrives in mind and comes with an additional planetary cog so it would be worth a shot. I have an alfine 8 one a tweaked bbs02 for 5 years now and it works if you are very careful. Shift once at full power, and you can hear the axle dogs breaking... but once they are correctly engaged, they can take up to 1.2kw in my experience, but will wear off quicker. But in the end, 8 speed turns out to be way overkill for ebike use at that power level, you end up constantly shifting. I think 3 to 5 widely spaces gears are the future.
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What's so tough about them?
I've been reading about bike drivetrains. It seems like 7 speed cassettes come in a big variety of strengths.
Some independent testing of chain wear indicates certain 12 speed chains by sram have the best durability against wear. I don't know how this would affect chain friction or sprocket longevity. But probably a good sign.
The cassette for these x01/xx1 is supposedly machined from a single block of steel and therefore it shouldn't have this classic issue of wearing the freehub body ( or whatever it's called ) when you have a powerful mid drive.
Surely there must be some 7 speed configuration that is stronger.
Paraffin wax seems to be a winner for reducing friction in pedal power applications.. but applying it frequently is a PITA.
If you go the way of the dual chainring with the lightest drive, picking a very low friction lube should help mitigate the negative of having to run two chains. Source: velolab ( paywalled link )
As for me, waiting on some emails from italy to confirm what i need to convert my drive to a dual chainwheel & still waiting on battery.
I've been reading about bike drivetrains. It seems like 7 speed cassettes come in a big variety of strengths.
Some independent testing of chain wear indicates certain 12 speed chains by sram have the best durability against wear. I don't know how this would affect chain friction or sprocket longevity. But probably a good sign.
The cassette for these x01/xx1 is supposedly machined from a single block of steel and therefore it shouldn't have this classic issue of wearing the freehub body ( or whatever it's called ) when you have a powerful mid drive.
Surely there must be some 7 speed configuration that is stronger.
Paraffin wax seems to be a winner for reducing friction in pedal power applications.. but applying it frequently is a PITA.
If you go the way of the dual chainring with the lightest drive, picking a very low friction lube should help mitigate the negative of having to run two chains. Source: velolab ( paywalled link )
As for me, waiting on some emails from italy to confirm what i need to convert my drive to a dual chainwheel & still waiting on battery.
Chain wear depends little on quality and a lot on maintenance/use: a long chain rolling over large sprockets will distribute forces better and hence resist to wearing/elongation longer than a short chain on small cogs. But this becomes irrelevant is the chain is constantly full of dirt, as the tiny rock particles will grind through every roller in no time.
It seems to me you are way over complicating things. If low maintenance is what you are looking for, have a look at what the dutch did for the last half century. IGH + strong chain + chaincase, and what makes their chain "strong" is just using wider rollers, since IGHs do not require chain sideflexing: 1/8" instead of 3/32" or even thinner nowadays. If lightweight is what you are looking for, MTB stuff is the way to go, but will be super maintenance heavy and wear through in no time with 1kw+ I don't think you can have both.
As of wax, I'd be curious to take Chalo view on it, as my experience wasn't very good: while it's true that lubrication tends to last longer than with oil, it's also very stick yand attract dust like flies on fresh jelly and cleaning it is a real pain. Nowadays, I just use some cheap eco friendly oil that is easy to apply and decomposes fast in nature. Note that I have some sort of chaincase / chaincover on every bike, as it halves the cleaning frequency.
It seems to me you are way over complicating things. If low maintenance is what you are looking for, have a look at what the dutch did for the last half century. IGH + strong chain + chaincase, and what makes their chain "strong" is just using wider rollers, since IGHs do not require chain sideflexing: 1/8" instead of 3/32" or even thinner nowadays. If lightweight is what you are looking for, MTB stuff is the way to go, but will be super maintenance heavy and wear through in no time with 1kw+ I don't think you can have both.
As of wax, I'd be curious to take Chalo view on it, as my experience wasn't very good: while it's true that lubrication tends to last longer than with oil, it's also very stick yand attract dust like flies on fresh jelly and cleaning it is a real pain. Nowadays, I just use some cheap eco friendly oil that is easy to apply and decomposes fast in nature. Note that I have some sort of chaincase / chaincover on every bike, as it halves the cleaning frequency.
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I'm just not willing to accept the low efficiency of IGHs in the range i can afford in exchange for durability that's far from proven.
Yes you may be able to convert 3-5 speed IGHs to an ATF bath to remove most of the efficiency penalty but that's a science experiment i've seen nobody do so it's a potential money pit.
We don't even know if the lightest bike mid drive is durable since this is the first batch of motors. I wouldn't be willing to pay 4 figures to get a 9x9 or rohloff into a wheel knowing that if the lightest drive doesn't work out, i have spent a ton of money on something i have no use for ( no other mid drive fits my requirements, so i would go right back to rear hub motors )
To me it would be way better to throw disposable sprockets and chains at this gearing problem for the time being until durability of the drive can be established.
Maybe wax isn't the way forward but there are at least some options to reduce chain friction. I think a chain protector is a very good addon to this plan.
Yes you may be able to convert 3-5 speed IGHs to an ATF bath to remove most of the efficiency penalty but that's a science experiment i've seen nobody do so it's a potential money pit.
We don't even know if the lightest bike mid drive is durable since this is the first batch of motors. I wouldn't be willing to pay 4 figures to get a 9x9 or rohloff into a wheel knowing that if the lightest drive doesn't work out, i have spent a ton of money on something i have no use for ( no other mid drive fits my requirements, so i would go right back to rear hub motors )
To me it would be way better to throw disposable sprockets and chains at this gearing problem for the time being until durability of the drive can be established.
Maybe wax isn't the way forward but there are at least some options to reduce chain friction. I think a chain protector is a very good addon to this plan.
Regarding chain lube, I stopped using lube since it keeps the flinty and sandy dust here on the wear surfaces and ends up wearing it *faster* than without it.
They still wear out, but since almost everything I use is someone else's already-used stuff with unknown histories, I just replace things when I start having problems with it. The last several years or more I have not put much power thru the pedal drivetrain, as most of it is provided by the hubmotors, but it still has to be working for the rare occasions where I have to put all my pedal power thru it for one reason or another.
I've broken, just with pedal power, an old SA 3speed IGH (not in the wheel, since that's a hubmotor; it's in the frame instead as a jackshaft). I never got around to taking it apart to see what broke. So far the old Sachs torpedo 3speed from the same era that replaced it has survived. I've worn thru a few chains on the short loop from the transfer shaft to the hub's freewheel, and one freewheel began to fail (jamming) from the accumulated grit inside it. Still working on the original long chain loops, from the pedals to the IGH and the IGH to the transfer axle input, after several years, but they are worn, and probably should have been replaced a while back. IIRC I'm using KMC 1/8" chain for all of it, purchased new for the purpose from a local bike shop, with the original lube cleaned out of it to prevent the dust from sticking to it.
Because I was so tired I forgot about it and was in a hurry to get it done while I could, I haven't yet cleaned the (very sticky) lube out of the new freewheel on the motor (had to get a new one becuase I couldn't get the old one off the old motor when I had to build a new wheel), so it's probably going to get pretty full of grindy contaminants before I get the chance to do so.
They still wear out, but since almost everything I use is someone else's already-used stuff with unknown histories, I just replace things when I start having problems with it. The last several years or more I have not put much power thru the pedal drivetrain, as most of it is provided by the hubmotors, but it still has to be working for the rare occasions where I have to put all my pedal power thru it for one reason or another.
I've broken, just with pedal power, an old SA 3speed IGH (not in the wheel, since that's a hubmotor; it's in the frame instead as a jackshaft). I never got around to taking it apart to see what broke. So far the old Sachs torpedo 3speed from the same era that replaced it has survived. I've worn thru a few chains on the short loop from the transfer shaft to the hub's freewheel, and one freewheel began to fail (jamming) from the accumulated grit inside it. Still working on the original long chain loops, from the pedals to the IGH and the IGH to the transfer axle input, after several years, but they are worn, and probably should have been replaced a while back. IIRC I'm using KMC 1/8" chain for all of it, purchased new for the purpose from a local bike shop, with the original lube cleaned out of it to prevent the dust from sticking to it.
Because I was so tired I forgot about it and was in a hurry to get it done while I could, I haven't yet cleaned the (very sticky) lube out of the new freewheel on the motor (had to get a new one becuase I couldn't get the old one off the old motor when I had to build a new wheel), so it's probably going to get pretty full of grindy contaminants before I get the chance to do so.
Where did you get that from ? Here in Europe, there is a german study widely spread around. While it's true that under ideal conditions a new clean derailleur will beat any IGH, those conditions are very rarely met, so that in most everyday scenarios, efficiency between a good IGH and a derailleur is almost equal, and if you subtract maintenance over 10 years, a dutch bike with a 3 speed IGH and a completely enclosed chain will smoke away any fancy MTB.
But that's all when considerating pedal power alone; in this new age of ebikes, I think that the efficiency difference becomes irrelevant, since most of the work is done by the motor anyway. Here new parameters like ease of maintenance and sturdinest become more important, so that suddently IGHs which where discarded 15 years ago are now in demand again, like the infamous sachs torpedo 5p for tandems, while others become redondant, like the overpriced rohloff. Who needs 14 gears with a motor nowadays ? For the same reason, belts have become a decent option despite their lower efficiency and an abysmal eco-record, and I'm not talking about gates.
I think the best combination is an IGH integrated into a hub motor, like the tdcm grintech used to sell. It was unfortunately fit with one of the worst igh there is (SA 5speed) but I think there is still plenty of potential. For an instance, there is a little known chinese company that makes integrated motors with shimano IGHs that are actually pretty decent - I have one here - but super hard to get by.
Now back to your issue: I think that if low weight, low maintenance and high power is what you want, there is no way around a custom job like a left side belt drive on the rear wheel, like mxlemming and a couple of others did. Nothing beats the power to weight ration of those rc motors, and 3D printed belt drive parts are super lightweight. I moved past tinkering intensive project, but you might give it a try. And I'd definitely stay away from any company selling motors that claim to drive 1Kw+ just through 6 engaged teeth on a 10T cog for bike chain; just look at all those old projects on this forum (lightningrod!), or the evolution of cyclone and gng/cyc - they all moved to belts or 219h stronger chains.
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Reference: Which Bicycle Gearbox Has The Highest Drive Efficiency? Rohloff, Pinion, Shimano - CYCLINGABOUT
Kettenschaltung = a derailleur system
Yeah speedhub is a bit less efficient than a deraileur.. and Shimanos are going to throw away ~10% of your power..
~10% more heat, 10% less range, 10% less top speed is not irrelevant to me and would be a real shame considering this might be the most efficient mid drive on the market ( since the astro drive is not available anymore )
I can look into a high reliability drivetrain option later once the motor is proven. The rohloff or 9x9 is probably the ticket.
The motor pinion on this drive could be a weak point for the higher powered versions of the drive, but it is easily replaceable and chain wrap should be better in the dual chainring configuration ( you probably want this in my 1000w version anyway ). No reason why it can't be improved in the future if it proves to be weak.
Kettenschaltung = a derailleur system
Yeah speedhub is a bit less efficient than a deraileur.. and Shimanos are going to throw away ~10% of your power..
~10% more heat, 10% less range, 10% less top speed is not irrelevant to me and would be a real shame considering this might be the most efficient mid drive on the market ( since the astro drive is not available anymore )
I can look into a high reliability drivetrain option later once the motor is proven. The rohloff or 9x9 is probably the ticket.
The motor pinion on this drive could be a weak point for the higher powered versions of the drive, but it is easily replaceable and chain wrap should be better in the dual chainring configuration ( you probably want this in my 1000w version anyway ). No reason why it can't be improved in the future if it proves to be weak.
Got an update from lightest HQ.
They're apparently releasing an update soon for the lightest which allows the firmware to be updated.
This means shipping the drive back to Italy for reprogramming shouldn't be a thing to make this double chainwheel thing work.
I ordered the superhero pack and the total cost was $200.
They're apparently releasing an update soon for the lightest which allows the firmware to be updated.
This means shipping the drive back to Italy for reprogramming shouldn't be a thing to make this double chainwheel thing work.
I ordered the superhero pack and the total cost was $200.
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