r3volved
100 kW
Good explanation
I seem to peak at 2x-3x my cruise wattage
I seem to peak at 2x-3x my cruise wattage
LightningRods mid drive kit
- Thread starter spinningmagnets
- Start date
eTrailster
1 W
spinningmagnets said:
What I'm hearing here is - the flow rate capacity of 12ga wire is only exceeded occasionally. This still means energy is lost converted to heat. This happens anytime more than 20A is pushed, which seems as if it can be more than occasionally with long climbs. As for the big hub motors, which I have no problem hatin', seem to run 10ga and push 60+ Amps through wire that can't be rated for more than 30A. Even worse, they do so more consistently than any mid-drive. None of it makes sense to me. The physics suggests thicker wiring is in order for just about every ebike build, yet standard practice is seemingly undersized wiring. It's obviously not a big deal, but, other than copper wire being quite heavy, I still don't get it.
speedmd
10 MW
Short distances the voltage drop is low and most wires are cooled well with passing air. Not much chance to melt insulation with sporadic high amps. I am with you, I go to number 4 or 6 on battery cables and shorten /fatten the phase / controller wires once build is set. Fusing amperage is much higher than rated continuous amp ratings and in this app you would design in a temperature rise you can live with if you don't want to carry extra wire. Calculator will tell you what to expect for temperature rise. http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
spinningmagnets
100 TW
Any time you upgrade to a thicker wire, you will get no arguments in this forum. It is common practice to "find out how fat of a wire will fit" when a new product comes out.
The listed amp-rating of wire is usually its continuous rating. For instance, if you plug in lamp, it will draw its continuous amps the entire time its plugged in and the switch is on. If you are continuously flowing 40A through 12-Ga wire, it will definitely have a meltdown.
The listed amp-rating of wire is usually its continuous rating. For instance, if you plug in lamp, it will draw its continuous amps the entire time its plugged in and the switch is on. If you are continuously flowing 40A through 12-Ga wire, it will definitely have a meltdown.
stonezone
100 W
A little update on my Glory BigBlock drivetrain issues:
I replaced my trashed freehub body with a new (although aluminum) one from ebay pretty cheap. This gave me the old one to stack and tack more cogs onto, which is a lot better than sandwiching and clamping them on my bench by eye. I'm up to about 12 now and there is almost no slip except under the highest load maybe once last night on a ride. Today I'm going to fill the rest of the body with scavenged cogs (and set the chainline a bit better) and I'm pretty sure this will resolve the issue 100% unless the free-hub gives.... I also spent some time getting the 3-way switch set up and working well with -current mode on my CA. Using the low mode I configured, it really softens up the engine's hit and makes this thing an amazing climber (and i'm not talking roads, some pretty steep trails that are not ridable unless you're Danny Way). I still need to play with the gain some but I'm no longer in "deathgrip" mode on the throttle hand. I'm even considering trying out a thumby.
A great solution for high powered single speeds on mtb free-hubs would be:
a single speed spacer kit that would tightly slide on the freehub body like standard cogs do (but more than spacer kits) ... AND (here's the important part) they would interlock with each other, AND the 1/8 or 3/16 single speed cog that would also come with the kit This way you could adjust the spacers for the correct chainline like usual, and now with them all interlocking, the load would be dispersed across the entire hub body, and would allow it for any size bodies (instead of scavenging cogs from everywhere, plasma cutting the teeth off then melting them together with a tig torch)...
Anyhow, if someone decides to fire up SolidWorks and CnC up one of those kits, I'd like a 3/16 17t cog and interlocking spacers for the idea
I replaced my trashed freehub body with a new (although aluminum) one from ebay pretty cheap. This gave me the old one to stack and tack more cogs onto, which is a lot better than sandwiching and clamping them on my bench by eye. I'm up to about 12 now and there is almost no slip except under the highest load maybe once last night on a ride. Today I'm going to fill the rest of the body with scavenged cogs (and set the chainline a bit better) and I'm pretty sure this will resolve the issue 100% unless the free-hub gives.... I also spent some time getting the 3-way switch set up and working well with -current mode on my CA. Using the low mode I configured, it really softens up the engine's hit and makes this thing an amazing climber (and i'm not talking roads, some pretty steep trails that are not ridable unless you're Danny Way). I still need to play with the gain some but I'm no longer in "deathgrip" mode on the throttle hand. I'm even considering trying out a thumby.
A great solution for high powered single speeds on mtb free-hubs would be:
a single speed spacer kit that would tightly slide on the freehub body like standard cogs do (but more than spacer kits) ... AND (here's the important part) they would interlock with each other, AND the 1/8 or 3/16 single speed cog that would also come with the kit This way you could adjust the spacers for the correct chainline like usual, and now with them all interlocking, the load would be dispersed across the entire hub body, and would allow it for any size bodies (instead of scavenging cogs from everywhere, plasma cutting the teeth off then melting them together with a tig torch)...
Anyhow, if someone decides to fire up SolidWorks and CnC up one of those kits, I'd like a 3/16 17t cog and interlocking spacers for the idea
eTrailster
1 W
speedmd and spinningmagnets - Thanks. Great info. Since ratings are for transmission use (Big Hub) and are conservative, I now understand why it's not a performance issue particularly for a mid-drive. It does however remain an efficiency issue as does any transmission. Therefore, I should shorten and thicken where possible - minding the trade-offs. I get it now. Thanks again.
Next I need to learn how to make a spark suppressor with APPs like the one that came with my battery.
Next I need to learn how to make a spark suppressor with APPs like the one that came with my battery.
LightningRods
1 MW
stonezone said:Anyhow, if someone decides to fire up SolidWorks and CnC up one of those kits, I'd like a 3/16 17t cog and interlocking spacers for the idea
Send me some napkin drawings and I'll see if I can build it. I want to solve for the final drive. If it works I'll make them available.
One question though. ACS tells me that their freewheel cog is stronger than a freehub. Why not get a BSA threaded solid hub and use a 16 or 17 tooth freewheel cog? That's what I'm doing to get started with my big block drive on the LunaCycle.
stonezone
100 W
LightningRods said:
You mentioned that to me in an email and since then i've looked all over and can't find (or maybe figure out how to) mount any freewheel cogs to my 150mm rear (with disk brake). I've seen 135mm rears and 150mm front hubs for fat bikes but nothing 150 and that will allow for chainline adjustment. I'm absolutely not an expert on bicycle standards and modification although i'm learning.
I'll sketch something up like i"m describing.
thanks!
sz
r3volved
100 kW
I use these
http://www.fouriers-bike.com/prduct_page.php?class=15&sn=120&psn=79
I have a 16t and 20t and their red mounting brackets Are the same.
You can mount 16t-20t-23t side by side and swap the attaching bolts for ones that go straight through all three cogs and mounts (making a fat strong 3spd freehub).
http://www.fouriers-bike.com/prduct_page.php?class=15&sn=120&psn=79
I have a 16t and 20t and their red mounting brackets Are the same.
You can mount 16t-20t-23t side by side and swap the attaching bolts for ones that go straight through all three cogs and mounts (making a fat strong 3spd freehub).
Hello everyone. I recently began looking into e-bike kits and have decided the LR kit is the way to go. I've exchanged a few emails with Mike but my lack of knowledge accumulates a lot of questions. I've been reading through this thread but I still had a lot of questions by the time I hit page 65. So I decided to jump ahead to the current conversation, discuss what I'm looking for in my build and get suggestions from the group.
Here is where I stand:
- I just bought a like new (used 2-3 times) Norco Sight 3 and I'm waiting for it to be shipped in
- I've kind of got my mind set on the Big Block kit because it has more power for only $200 more.
- I my main goal is to have a kit that allows for pedal assist. There are some short but steep hills in my area that I would like to peddle up rather than walk. But being able to go faster in less steep areas is a bonus
- I would still like to have a powerful kit which allows me to have a bit of all electric fun and speed.
- I don't want to have a large clumsy looking battery mounted on the bike. I'd like to use something like a 48v "water bottle mount" style battery pack. Long range and extended use of all electric are not my goal.
- I live in a small town in Canada. It is very hard for me to easily get my hands on components. secondly, the exchange rate is killing me. So if anyone has suggestions on suppliers for batteries and any other components that I can get without crossing the border, it would be great.
What I don't know:
- Can I manage to set a big block kit up to meet my needs?
- What else do I need to get my bike trail worthy? What exactly is in the LR kit? I know Mike will also supply controllers but do I need any other hardware beside a battery? I ask this because other kits I've seen come with cranks, crank arms and so on.
Sorry that this is a "build a kit for me based on my needs because I'm a noob" scenario. I just really want to make sure I can build a bike start to finish without issues. I want to be able to support someone that has put a lot of time and effort into a quality product and been a boost to the community; but still need to give myself the "all encompassing BBSO2 kit buying experience"
Thanks
Here is where I stand:
- I just bought a like new (used 2-3 times) Norco Sight 3 and I'm waiting for it to be shipped in
- I've kind of got my mind set on the Big Block kit because it has more power for only $200 more.
- I my main goal is to have a kit that allows for pedal assist. There are some short but steep hills in my area that I would like to peddle up rather than walk. But being able to go faster in less steep areas is a bonus
- I would still like to have a powerful kit which allows me to have a bit of all electric fun and speed.
- I don't want to have a large clumsy looking battery mounted on the bike. I'd like to use something like a 48v "water bottle mount" style battery pack. Long range and extended use of all electric are not my goal.
- I live in a small town in Canada. It is very hard for me to easily get my hands on components. secondly, the exchange rate is killing me. So if anyone has suggestions on suppliers for batteries and any other components that I can get without crossing the border, it would be great.
What I don't know:
- Can I manage to set a big block kit up to meet my needs?
- What else do I need to get my bike trail worthy? What exactly is in the LR kit? I know Mike will also supply controllers but do I need any other hardware beside a battery? I ask this because other kits I've seen come with cranks, crank arms and so on.
Sorry that this is a "build a kit for me based on my needs because I'm a noob" scenario. I just really want to make sure I can build a bike start to finish without issues. I want to be able to support someone that has put a lot of time and effort into a quality product and been a boost to the community; but still need to give myself the "all encompassing BBSO2 kit buying experience"
Thanks
r3volved
100 kW
You're probably only going to need the small block at >=60v with a triangle bag battery. You'll need something that can deliver the amps that this kits wants...I'd assume the big block craves higher amps.
Looks like it will fit to your bike. You might need to trim the bottom bracket retaining rings to clear your suspension pivot (I did).
I'm not sure what mike has on supply now, he's growing lightningFast, but he will know if there's anything you need besides a battery. A CA3-DPS is recommended in the least but he might be sourcing those too now.
I went to ex-battery.com for my battery. 20s Samsung-25R pack.
Edit:
I don't know how well peddle assist will work, or what kind...I don't peddle much besides heavy acceleration.
DblEdit:
I PMd you some Canadian sources.
Looks like it will fit to your bike. You might need to trim the bottom bracket retaining rings to clear your suspension pivot (I did).
I'm not sure what mike has on supply now, he's growing lightningFast, but he will know if there's anything you need besides a battery. A CA3-DPS is recommended in the least but he might be sourcing those too now.
I went to ex-battery.com for my battery. 20s Samsung-25R pack.
Edit:
I don't know how well peddle assist will work, or what kind...I don't peddle much besides heavy acceleration.
DblEdit:
I PMd you some Canadian sources.
stonezone
100 W
r3volved said:I use these
http://www.fouriers-bike.com/prduct_page.php?class=15&sn=120&psn=79
I have a 16t and 20t and their red mounting brackets Are the same.
You can mount 16t-20t-23t side by side and swap the attaching bolts for ones that go straight through all three cogs and mounts (making a fat strong 3spd freehub).
How many amps/watts are you throwing at it? I've seen those before and thought the same but the price ran away from me. It does look like the tolerances on those are better than the cheap (chromo at least) cogs i'm using. It went on pretty snug today though, time will tell.
r3volved
100 kW
These have been the strongest ones I've found. Two years at 1.5kW with no slipping an no sheared teeth (busting teeth was my biggest issue - never had any cog slip on the freewheel)
Now I'm at 5kW. It's only been two weeks but so far has outlasted my old 10-spd and another 8-spd chains.
I used at 1.5kW (gng) with shadow conspiracy interlock 1/2 x 1/8 but I have to get the thinner interlock chain for LR clearance.
Now I'm at 5kW. It's only been two weeks but so far has outlasted my old 10-spd and another 8-spd chains.
I used at 1.5kW (gng) with shadow conspiracy interlock 1/2 x 1/8 but I have to get the thinner interlock chain for LR clearance.
I'm thinking of buying a LR kit for rough off road trail riding.
I have a budget of about $ 3250 US to buy the kit, a battery pack, and a bike as well.
The 1500 watt kit, CA3, Controller look to be about $1105 US
Which leaves $ 2145 for a bike and battery.
I would appreciate some advice and comments about what battery and bike i should get to go with the kit.
Keeping in mind I'll need a bike suitable for cross country and rough track riding. I'll probably have to settle for used bike to begin with.
Any thoughts as to what bike is a good match for the kit, components I should upgrade to handle the kits power would be welcome.
I don't own a car at the moment, and have to travel about 6.1 KM to the forest where I ride. Its about 12.2 KM return trip. The last 1.5 KM of the journey up to the forest is a fairly steep hill. The forest itself is FULL of steep hills. I've heard that its possible to ride all day long in the forest and not hit the same track twice, its that big. I'm not the diy type, so will be interested in a finished battery system capable of that I can plug into the kit. Something that has a hardened outer shell to protect it from falls and crash's on the trail. Yes I crash the bike a bit.
Thoughts and comments very welcome.
I have a budget of about $ 3250 US to buy the kit, a battery pack, and a bike as well.
The 1500 watt kit, CA3, Controller look to be about $1105 US
Which leaves $ 2145 for a bike and battery.
I would appreciate some advice and comments about what battery and bike i should get to go with the kit.
Keeping in mind I'll need a bike suitable for cross country and rough track riding. I'll probably have to settle for used bike to begin with.
Any thoughts as to what bike is a good match for the kit, components I should upgrade to handle the kits power would be welcome.
I don't own a car at the moment, and have to travel about 6.1 KM to the forest where I ride. Its about 12.2 KM return trip. The last 1.5 KM of the journey up to the forest is a fairly steep hill. The forest itself is FULL of steep hills. I've heard that its possible to ride all day long in the forest and not hit the same track twice, its that big. I'm not the diy type, so will be interested in a finished battery system capable of that I can plug into the kit. Something that has a hardened outer shell to protect it from falls and crash's on the trail. Yes I crash the bike a bit.
Thoughts and comments very welcome.
r3volved
100 kW
For a bike - if you're looking for full suspension, make sure the bottom bracket is fixed to the downtube (not on the swing arm) and that your swing arm pivot point is above or behind the BB. This kit attaches AT the bottom bracket and AT the downtube - there cannot be a pivot between these two attachment points or the pivot will become locked and rigid. Other than that, maybe look for as square as possible lower downtube.
As far as I can tell, this kit (small block) craves amps. You'll want a battery capable of delivering at least 2500W. That's where I have my 'Eco' set and provides a decent acceleration. I would recommend a 60v minimum but others may have comments about using 36-48v.
I'm dumping quite a bit of power into it and right now showing 35wh/km (@5kW 'unlimited' mode)...I haven't reset and tested with my just my 'Eco' setting. I actually set my Eco to be more of a lower power off-road single track mode...0-50kph in like 3 seconds is alright in dirt and grass but waaaaay too squirrely on gravel trails.
You'd probably want something like a DH comp or other decent sized triangle to fit a good pack. I went with a norco VPS and mounted battery blocks on either side of frame which required some bracket building.
Your budget matches very close to mine. I was an early adopter of the kit so I think I got it slightly cheaper, but I'm about $3000 all-in right now. I'd go for the best battery your budget allows and find a cheap frame on kijiji/CL - my frame was only $450 - dudes wife was making him sell it
My first build was a brand new bike I purchased with intent to mount GNG kit. I ended up modding and tweaking that bike a lot and I don't think I'd go waste that much cash on a brand new bike again when I now know how easy it is to refurb any frame for some $ savings.
ON ANOTHER NOTE:
I mentioned my 35wh/km above... Id like to know what other folks are achieving with their setups.
As far as I can tell, this kit (small block) craves amps. You'll want a battery capable of delivering at least 2500W. That's where I have my 'Eco' set and provides a decent acceleration. I would recommend a 60v minimum but others may have comments about using 36-48v.
I'm dumping quite a bit of power into it and right now showing 35wh/km (@5kW 'unlimited' mode)...I haven't reset and tested with my just my 'Eco' setting. I actually set my Eco to be more of a lower power off-road single track mode...0-50kph in like 3 seconds is alright in dirt and grass but waaaaay too squirrely on gravel trails.
You'd probably want something like a DH comp or other decent sized triangle to fit a good pack. I went with a norco VPS and mounted battery blocks on either side of frame which required some bracket building.
Your budget matches very close to mine. I was an early adopter of the kit so I think I got it slightly cheaper, but I'm about $3000 all-in right now. I'd go for the best battery your budget allows and find a cheap frame on kijiji/CL - my frame was only $450 - dudes wife was making him sell it
My first build was a brand new bike I purchased with intent to mount GNG kit. I ended up modding and tweaking that bike a lot and I don't think I'd go waste that much cash on a brand new bike again when I now know how easy it is to refurb any frame for some $ savings.
ON ANOTHER NOTE:
I mentioned my 35wh/km above... Id like to know what other folks are achieving with their setups.
Andytheswede
100 mW
So how long is the wait for a smallblock kit these days?
LightningRods
1 MW
We just started shipping kits that were ordered less than 60 days ago. We've been steadily grinding away at the backlog of orders seven days a week since last October. We have both small block and big block motors in stock.
Next Friday I get the laser cut metal for the Qulbix mid drive and the Surley Big Dummy cargo bike mid drives. Build threads soon to follow.
Next Friday I get the laser cut metal for the Qulbix mid drive and the Surley Big Dummy cargo bike mid drives. Build threads soon to follow.
r3volved
100 kW
Sweet, I didn't know you were already doing a qulbix one! Is it kits for both motors or just one?
I am totally loving this kit! It's a real head turner and I get a lot more people asking about it.
I loved my gng bike so much and I was keeping it for commuter but I don't even drive it anymore and trying to sell it off to friends now so I can have a ride-mate. This kit is waaay more fun and exciting to drive
I am totally loving this kit! It's a real head turner and I get a lot more people asking about it.
I loved my gng bike so much and I was keeping it for commuter but I don't even drive it anymore and trying to sell it off to friends now so I can have a ride-mate. This kit is waaay more fun and exciting to drive
Andytheswede
100 mW
so if i order this month i can expect delivery in Juli?
LightningRods
1 MW
Or sooner.
LightningRods
1 MW
r3volved said:Sweet, I didn't know you were already doing a qulbix one! Is it kits for both motors or just one?
I am totally loving this kit! It's a real head turner and I get a lot more people asking about it.
I loved my gng bike so much and I was keeping it for commuter but I don't even drive it anymore and trying to sell it off to friends now so I can have a ride-mate. This kit is waaay more fun and exciting to drive
I'm only doing a big block version on the Quilbix because of the weight of the bike itself and the width of it's battery box. If I do make a small block version it would require a lot of complicated spacers to get the side plates out to the necessary width to clear the battery box. Because the Qulbix has only been hub motor powered up to this point they had to pack a LOT of batteries. The battery box is huge.
I'm thrilled that people are having so much fun with their L-R kits. We'll keep refining this until it's just a matter of throwing the kit on your bike and cranking the power up as far as your courage and battery/controller will allow. I designed this kit on the old hot rodder's principle that you make the driveline bulletproof first and then start cranking up the power.
Andytheswede
100 mW
We'll keep refining this until it's just a matter of throwing the kit on your bike and cranking the power up as far as your courage and battery/controller will allow. I designed this kit on the old hot rodder's principle that you make the driveline bulletproof first and then start cranking up the power.
Yea that sounds good cause i've got my thumbs in the middle of the hand.
oh well im gonna spend the rest of the week reading the whole thread (im on page 45
) to see if my questions already have been answered and then place an order.
Yea that sounds good cause i've got my thumbs in the middle of the hand.
oh well im gonna spend the rest of the week reading the whole thread (im on page 45
) to see if my questions already have been answered and then place an order.
LightningRods
1 MW
You can always PM me with questions. I spend 2 to 3 hours every day responding to PMs and e-mail.
