LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

Yea that's my only gear, I have an alfine 11 with 20T sprocket, no front derauiler

If you have 26" wheels your speed range with my kit, an Alfine 11, and 39/20 final drive sprockets will range from 7.9 mph/12.7 kph in 1st gear up to a top speed of 32.3 mph/ 52 kph in 11th gear. This is at 48v, 33.3:1 overall motor reduction and a 96 rpm crank speed. Sounds pretty ideal actually.

If you'd been running a single run final drive with no internally geared hub transmission your top speed with 39/20 would have been 15 mph/24 kph.

 

[emaayan]

Actually I have a 29er and the current chain ring is 34t only becauae we were worried about the chain line collision into the chainstay
and currently at 3rd gear at 1500 Watts I reach 50 kph, more gears beyond that don't make a difference.

What's a final drive?

 

[teslanv]

What's a final drive?

In the comment above, LR is talking about running a single gear sprocket (final drive) at the rear.

 

[emaayan]

Thanks, so the way to increase speed is via more volts or smaller sprocket, right? The real test would the torque, or how fast I could reach the top speed limit

 

[LightningRods]

are you going to provide the spacers and all that so we can just use our 104 BCD sprockets if we go to that direction?

Oh, what is a 1/2" secondary drive upgrade you're referring to? Sorry, i'm so slow at this.

In attempting to accommodate everyone and offer options I've apparently created confusion. There is the basic kit that has #219 secondary drive and you provide your own chainrings, chainring bolts and spacers. I don't make that part of the basic kit because as I said many people will already have those parts. I can provide them but it will add to the cost of the basic kit. If I do provide the chainwheels and spacers you need to be competent to work out the chainring spacing for your specific bike or take it to a professional mechanic at a bike shop for final tuning. If you don't consider yourself a competent bicycle mechanic PLEASE don't try to do everything yourself. If you assemble it by yourself and are not confident in your abilities at least take it in to the bike mechanic for a final inspection before riding. You should do this regularly with any bike and definitely with a bike that has a powerful motor on it.

I offer the following secondary drive options:

GNG Kit- 219 sprocket and chain conversion. Uses the GNG square taper BB, crank arms, 4 bolt freewheel and driven final drive sprocket.
GNG Kit- Cyclone ISIS 1/2" bicycle chain conversion. Replaces all GNG BB components. Provides three chainwheels, (1) 1/2" driven and (2) 1/2' final drive.
GNG Kit- Cyclone ISIS #219 conversion. Replaces all GNG BB components. Provides three chainwheels, (1) #219 driven and (2) 1/2" final drive. Includes all bolts and spacers.
L-R Basic Kit- Cyclone ISIS #219. Cyclone ISIS BB and crank arms. Provides one chainwheel, (1) #219 driven. Customer provides final drive chainwheels, bolts and spacers.
L-R Optional Kit-Cyclone ISIS #219. Cyclone ISIS BB and crank arms. Provides three chainwheels, (1) #219 driven and (2) 1/2" final drive. Includes all bolts and spacers.

I hope this helps rather than creating more confusion. In the case of Emaayan I'm selling him a kit with no ISIS BB or crank arms so that he can use his torque sensing THUN BB to run his Torque Sensing System. The "kit" and kit price is just meant to give you a ballpark idea of what you are in for financially. I allow additions and subtractions on every kit and most people opt to do so.

Once I start shipping kits the sprocket and pulley guards will not be optional because they're safety related. The base price of the kit is going to increase slightly to cover the cost of these necessary safety parts. Customers who have prepaid for their kits will get the guards at the original kit price. I'll know how much of an increase there will be for subsequent kits when I get the parts from the laser shop this next week.

 

[Wishes]

Thanks, so the way to increase speed is via more volts or smaller sprocket, right? The real test would the torque, or how fast I could reach the top speed limit

You will have a hard time with small sprockets under 14T on the back wheel using 2000 watts and more. The chain tends to roll over the rear sprocket if enough torque is applied and not enough teeth are engaged. When working out your ratio's, using the largest chain rings and sprockets possible, keeping the most teeth engaged at all times, is a good practice at 2000 watt power levels and above. I have LR's upgrade belt on the primary, a 14T ACS crossfire on the secondary driver to a 48T chainring. And I have h 44T at my pedals to drive my rear cassette, my smallest spocket that does not skip is my 14T on the back. Anything smaller than that, I have to gradually apply throttle not to over torque it or the chain rolls. And that was at 3500 watts. At 4kw, its worst, even my 14T skips sometimes.



Wishes

 

[emaayan]

i don't think afline rear sprockets can go below 16T off the shelf. and they don't include a mud guard the smallest with that, would get me 18T. so i don't have many options on that department.



my original ambition, would to be START from 25 kph at first gear, and may end at 70-8- kph but it all depends on how fast i'll get there.

 

[LightningRods]

Thanks, so the way to increase speed is via more volts or smaller sprocket, right? The real test would the torque, or how fast I could reach the top speed limit

Based on what you've told me about your plans for your build you will be fine at 48v. With 29er wheels your top speed at 48v will be 35mph/56 kph. If you run at 48v 40 amps you should have great acceleration and be able to pull max revs in 11th. Your gearing is pretty much spot on for this kit. I will be very interested to hear how the Alfine 11 holds up. It sounds like you do not baby your equipment so if it holds up on your bike that's a good endorsement. I love the idea of an IGH if they will stay together.

If you want to go faster than 56 kph you can try one of the optional smaller rear sprockets or a larger front chainwheel. If the motor won't pull the higher gearing go back to the original gearing and add volts for more rpm. Amps will help you pull higher gearing, volts will give you more speed from lower gearing through higher rpm.

 

[ebike11]

Hi Wishes,
Following your advice I went and ordered a 7 speed rear shimano to replace my 9 speed.
The smallest sprocket on the 7sp. is 14 compared to the 9sp. with 11T as the smallest

I was wondering if you and others could chime in. I have the chain driven gng, and we know there are 4 total sprockets on the right side.

Jackshaft to largest chainring
Smaller inside chainring to rear cassette sprockets

Im worried about cancelling out speed gains when changing sprockets.
I want to go up to 15T on the jackshaft replacing the stock 12T. Im hoping this will
increase top speed as Im not focused on cadence.
Now if my smallest is 14T on the rear, what sizes would be
optimal for the two chainrings?? Are larger chainrings or smaller chainrings
better for top speed?? Or is the inner more important than the outer or vice versa??

Thanks...the sprocket combinations are confusing for me

 

[emaayan]

i fear my current alfine is not good a reference, it's been skipping some gears, in fact my only "safe" usage for it right now is first gear, at start , if i try 2nd gear, it MIGHT get there, it might not, but 3rd gear always hits the spot ,4th gear as well, beyond that i'm not sure.

i've ready tried servicing it for the first time, when i extracted the old oil ,i only manage to pull out 10ml of oil, and inserted 20. i think the max is 25 (and yes the yellow mark is spot on for those of you who know how to adjust alfine, still skips) . i already have another wheel request pending, my current rim is sputnik ridiga with ebike.ca's 13g spokes on the alfine,the next build should have with a rim of stans 29er.

the only reason i went with the alfine is that it's only IGH which has thumb shifters, which is a must, and allows me to hold the brakes at the same time, the down side is that it won't do more then 2 gears jumps. i know that rohlff might be superior quality but their after market thumb shifters seem ridiculous and clumsy ,while nuvinci declared that they don't support e-bike > 250 watts and it will shorten the life by 75%

as i don't have a car and don't know how to drive , i'm 250 pound and travel a total 20 miles daily commuting across 5 cities. that's not including ingress special ops travel and quick response for portal take overs which i plan to do if this kit will extend the range of my battery (currently i believe my usage is about 1.7 km per amps, and with 22 AH battery i can go around 37 km per charge, it may have something to do with the fact that my motor external surface temperature has reached 60 degrees Celsius at the end of a 40 minute ride )

beyond that i maybe to workout with it even with ingress trips (as it was meant to be) and maybe go out weekend warrior trips (unless the other bikers might throw me off a cliff when they what i'm coming with). which is why i wanna keep the torque sensing option always open.

 

[MitchJi]

i don't think afline rear sprockets can go below 16T off the shelf. and they don't include a mud guard the smallest with that, would get me 18T. so i don't have many options on that department.

You could use a Patterson two speed crank (maybe Mike should consider offering that as an option), like Justin did here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49583#p733071

We also had a customer show up with a bike that had the metropolis patterson 2-speed crankset on it, which in addition to giving dual speeds on the front also has built in freewheeling characteristic, which would meaning running of the motor does not force the pedals to turn. That had been the single biggest 'complaint' we'd heard of the original Stokemonkey setup.

Freewheeling cranksets are a frequent point of failure in mid-drive ebikes, but the hope was that since this one was engineered as a crankset it should hold up. In general, the patterson crank is designed for 2 speeds and the freewheeling is incidental, but for us the freewheeling was key and the 2-speeds was the nice 'extra'.

Justin also explains his use of a THUN, earlier in the same thread:

At the same time, we were also exploring ideas of implementing a right side drive option for the stokemonkey, which could look cleaner, and could also enable the use of a THUN torque sensing bottom bracket. With a normal stokemonkey setup, the torque of the motor goes through the spindle and so wouldn't be differentiable from the the pedal torque. spindle and so wouldn't be differentiable from the the pedal torque.

Information on the Patterson can be found here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=55334

 

[LightningRods]

Justin also explains his use of a THUN, earlier in the same thread:

At the same time, we were also exploring ideas of implementing a right side drive option for the stokemonkey, which could look cleaner, and could also enable the use of a THUN torque sensing bottom bracket. With a normal stokemonkey setup, the torque of the motor goes through the spindle and so wouldn't be differentiable from the the pedal torque.

This is what I've never understood about a torque sensing BB on a mid drive that runs through the BB. How in the world could the torque sensor possibly know the difference between motor torque and pedal torque? It seems that once you stepped on the pedal the motor would apply torque to the torque sensor and create a feedback loop that would spiral out of control. On a hub drive or a mid drive mounted between the BB and rear wheel like the Stokemonkey you can isolate the motor from the pedals. Even if it didn't loop up to full throttle it seems like control would be erratic.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Mike,

It's senses the torque applied through the pedals, not the torque applied on the sprockets. That's why it needs to be built into the bottom bracket.

 

[r3volved]

Hi Mike,

It's senses the torque applied through the pedals, not the torque applied on the sprockets. That's why it needs to be built into the bottom bracket.

That's what I would think...
When motor is spinning the chain wheel, the bb axle is not spinning. The sensor in the bb cartridge would sense the torque on the axle.

 

[LightningRods]

Hi Mike,

It's senses the torque applied through the pedals, not the torque applied on the sprockets. That's why it needs to be built into the bottom bracket.

Hi Mitch,

It must be the freewheel that provides enough of a disconnect to keep the torque from affecting the BB through the crank arm. I'm going to have to experience this to get it, I guess. I've never ridden a PAS equipped bike. Customers keep asking about it so I need to get up to speed.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[emaayan]

Pas is easier to install then torque still it would be better in my opinion to offer freewheel crank instead of freewheel bb cause the added functionality.

 

[nukezero]

are you going to provide the spacers and all that so we can just use our 104 BCD sprockets if we go to that direction?

Oh, what is a 1/2" secondary drive upgrade you're referring to? Sorry, i'm so slow at this.

In attempting to accommodate everyone and offer options I've apparently created confusion. There is the basic kit that has #219 secondary drive and you provide your own chainrings, chainring bolts and spacers. I don't make that part of the basic kit because as I said many people will already have those parts. I can provide them but it will add to the cost of the basic kit. If I do provide the chainwheels and spacers you need to be competent to work out the chainring spacing for your specific bike or take it to a professional mechanic at a bike shop for final tuning. If you don't consider yourself a competent bicycle mechanic PLEASE don't try to do everything yourself. If you assemble it by yourself and are not confident in your abilities at least take it in to the bike mechanic for a final inspection before riding. You should do this regularly with any bike and definitely with a bike that has a powerful motor on it.

I offer the following secondary drive options:

GNG Kit- 219 sprocket and chain conversion. Uses the GNG square taper BB, crank arms, 4 bolt freewheel and driven final drive sprocket.
GNG Kit- Cyclone ISIS 1/2" bicycle chain conversion. Replaces all GNG BB components. Provides three chainwheels, (1) 1/2" driven and (2) 1/2' final drive.
GNG Kit- Cyclone ISIS #219 conversion. Replaces all GNG BB components. Provides three chainwheels, (1) #219 driven and (2) 1/2" final drive. Includes all bolts and spacers.
L-R Basic Kit- Cyclone ISIS #219. Cyclone ISIS BB and crank arms. Provides one chainwheel, (1) #219 driven. Customer provides final drive chainwheels, bolts and spacers.
L-R Optional Kit-Cyclone ISIS #219. Cyclone ISIS BB and crank arms. Provides three chainwheels, (1) #219 driven and (2) 1/2" final drive. Includes all bolts and spacers.

I hope this helps rather than creating more confusion. In the case of Emaayan I'm selling him a kit with no ISIS BB or crank arms so that he can use his torque sensing THUN BB to run his Torque Sensing System. The "kit" and kit price is just meant to give you a ballpark idea of what you are in for financially. I allow additions and subtractions on every kit and most people opt to do so.

Once I start shipping kits the sprocket and pulley guards will not be optional because they're safety related. The base price of the kit is going to increase slightly to cover the cost of these necessary safety parts. Customers who have prepaid for their kits will get the guards at the original kit price. I'll know how much of an increase there will be for subsequent kits when I get the parts from the laser shop this next week.

Thank you for the superb clarification. So in my case with the Electra Townie, I cannot reuse my chain rings. Therefore, I assume you will send me the optional kit with chainrings, bolts, spacers.

Yes, i do believe i am competent enough to fix spacings and derailleur adjustments as well.

Thanks

 

[turbo1889]

@ LightningRods

Thank you very much for answering my question about "flip-ability" of the motor combined with your mounting plates.

I fully realize its a big sacrifice only getting 200-250 watts out of a 6-pound weight motor and I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question despite your reservations towards the idea. I tend to do things considerably different then everyone else and thus I sometimes get some strange looks, so I sincerely appreciate your willingness to address my question even though its backwards of the way everyone else thinks and the opposite direction everyone else is headed with your drive. So I appreciate your willingness to answer weird outside of the box question from weird guy wandering around out in no mans land the opposite direction everyone else is going.

Testing on my stock gng motor that I already have, I have been able to get out about 250-300 watts mechanical output at motor shaft just barely under 700-RPM at that peak power output and 900'ish free spinning no load with 30A controller on a 4 cell series pack. Not the best efficiency by any means with 380watts or so going in and only 250-300 watts coming out depending on how much I load it and pull down the RPMs but if I can figure out about a 7-to-1 reduction it might work. Me already break the little plastic parts in those weeny Euro drives with weeny little motors spinning fast through little plastic gear reduction stages, especially in winter cold. This would be a lot heavier to be sure but if I can get it to work would be all metal and chain off a big tough motor running well under its rating. Maybe equals silent bullet proof stealth e-bike? If I'm lucky enough to make it work. Still better power to weight ratio then 200 pound bio-motor pedaling at probably less then that power output most of the time.

Problems with the idea as you pointed out dually noted, if I do decide to try it and it doesn't work out I can always switch it back around and go for a jackshaft double reduction at higher volts, RPMs, and higher power levels and I'll have only wasted a few dollars on chain and sprockets and such.

 

[LightningRods]

Part of the fun of this hobby is trying new things. What happens when you run high voltage and low amperage? What happens when you run low voltage and high amperage. To some extent we know but it's always fun to see how specific motors react.

Far from discouraging you, keep in mind that I can deliver these motors with custom shafts to suit your particular project. You have all of this raw material to work with:

 

[emaayan]

part of me thinks maybe i should get 3 chainrings 34-39-44 in the front cranks, and return a front deraiuler, but no only will i have to change the chain to something else then a single speed but i would also need more room on the left side of the cockpit.

 

[LightningRods]

part of me thinks maybe i should get 3 chainrings 34-39-44 in the front cranks, and return a front deraiuler, but no only will i have to change the chain to something else then a single speed but i would also need more room on the left side of the cockpit.

If you can make the Alfine work you'll have plenty of gears. I was sorry to read about it skipping. I'd recommend that you get the basic setup installed and see how much room there is on the right side. Your narrow THUN BB is going to hamper your ability to have multiple chainwheels.

 

[emaayan]

i'll try to inject more oil into it, it has been operating around 2 years, some of them, it was never aligned to begin with..

 

[emaayan]

OOPS!, it would appear the TA crank arms do NOT have threading freewheel, that's a parameter i've over looked, so now i'll be getting cranks arms which are completely useless to me. (well always a missing paramter)

so now i'm in search for a square taper 170 mm crank arm, which can accept a front freewheel , sjs cycles were kind enough to refer me to:
http://www.freeflowbikes.com/Dirt-Street/Drivetrain/Crankset/Inspired/Trialtech-Sport-Forged-Square-Taper-Cranks/

which seems right, BUT, but there's a disclaimer at bottom:
"Please note that the minimum required thread contact between crank arm and sprocket/freewheel is 7mm, and a 1.37" sprocket/freewheel with maximum internal thread diameter 33.80mm (NOT 1.375") must be used. Failure to adhere to this instruction will damage the cranks threads and this is not covered under warranty."

so now i'm confused again, i believe LR is using http://bikemotive.myshopify.com/products/custom-acs-crossfire-flanged-freewheel which also says it's 1.37 - 24 TPI, but the picture itself shows 1.375 on freewheel.
bikemotive actually sells the cranks arms as well, but http://bikemotive.myshopify.com/collections/crank-arms/products/alloy-cranks-170mm-threaded-for-front-freewheel-ebike-bmx-scooter-bikemotive they are sold out (i'm half tempted to buy the entire crank set just for the crank arms, but won't the next poor moron who might decide to do the same i did, so i might as well use ecospeed arms, i hope THEY fit the freewheel).

other then those i found http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=35 but i have no idea about THEIR threading...

it would be nice to actually know what i'm talking about for change, what the dimension mean, and where they actually used.

 

[LightningRods]

Emaayan and I had an e-mail conversation about the thread issue. I've looked into freewheel threads at length. The 1.375" -24 tpi thread on the White Ind and ACS will fit the threads on the Trialtech crank arms. What I learned from our conversation is that Trialtech has square taper bores available in addition to the ISIS bore I was familiar with. Once we confirm that Trialtech and Thun both use the same square taper (either JIS or ISO) there should be an option available for a freewheeling torque sensing BB other than the EcoSpeed setup. If all of this works out I will make this an available option on my kits. The Thun BB plugs right into the Cycle Analyst 3. Thanks Emaayan for pushing this forward. I get lots of e-mail from people wanting PAS or torque sensing.

 

[emaayan]

Well by this time no one was around to give an answer about that,so i emailed them . Like LR said it would make sense for trialtech as uk company to use iso standard. Sheldon brown says anyway that he had no problem mixing jis and iso with each other.

I figured its about time to make SOME small contribution to the forum, intead of just brakinf stuff and asking stupid questions..