LightningRods mid drive kit

[ElectricGod]

Spinning...et al...

I'm not really into bikes, and I know lots of people are buying the complete kit for their mountain bike or cruiser or whatever. I personally don't want pedals on my EV at all so that mostly means mopeds, kick scooters and motor cycle conversions (I'll get to this one eventually). For those types of EV's, power is often times the thing that isn't the problem. THe system can already handle the loads developed by the motor. I'll probably build a bicycle eventually just to say I have done one, but to me, if I never see pedals on an EV...well I'm OK with that. I'll probably build a motor cycle before I do a mountain bike.

To me, the fact that a flimsy bike frame can endure the loads that one of these kits puts on it is virtually miraculous. And that's just the frame. A friend of mine used to do triathlons and he told me the best athletes can only sustain around 300-400 watts. Lets pretend that all bicycles are manufactured to have a 500 watt limit so that reliability is reasonably good. I know that is probably laughable in 75-80% of bikes, but bear with me. Well then we are going to throw a motor that can deliver 4-5 times the human wattage (1500 watt motor) on that bike...ummm...how can the bike EVER handle that amount of torque and then lets double that! Oh wait...but I want to run my motor at 6000 watts...ummm...OK...something isn't going to last very long. Hence my desire to not make an EV bike...LOL! Solid props to people that get frames and components to last for years while pushing these wattage levels through something designed for maybe 300 watts.

 

[r3volved]

Most of the LR builds (mine included) are using a heavier downhill frame as a base. The cargo frames are already beef. The small block would probably snap a road bike's rear end...the kit isn't for a light build

 

[ElectricGod]

Most of the LR builds (mine included) are using a heavier downhill frame as a base. The cargo frames are already beef. The small block would probably snap a road bike's rear end...the kit isn't for a light build

That explains a lot. I don't know bicycles very well. When I looked at pictures with these kits on them, I thought they were just mountain bikes for the most part. So I'm guessing that dropping a big block on a $12,000 carbon bike that weighs 15 pounds is a bad idea? It would be really fast until it turned into splinters!

 

[r3volved]

It's a niche kit, though most are.
The motor hauls ass for extended periods which is why it makes for a great cargo bike. It's enough torque to destroy cheap components and sometimes expensive ones
The guys pushing more than what Mike rates the kits, are doing so at their own risks and are also modifying all sorts of stuff (like fopple and jb). Most of them know their way around bikes to begin with.
This kit will haul loads and trailers uphill, off-road, all season. A heavy frame really doesn't seem that heavy over 3kw.

 

[ElectricGod]

It's a niche kit, though most are.
The motor hauls ass for extended periods which is why it makes for a great cargo bike. It's enough torque to destroy cheap components and sometimes expensive ones
The guys pushing more than what Mike rates the kits, are doing so at their own risks and are also modifying all sorts of stuff (like fopple and jb). Most of them know their way around bikes to begin with.
This kit will haul loads and trailers uphill, off-road, all season. A heavy frame really doesn't seem that heavy over 3kw.

That makes me think on my 120 pound scooter, that it will do great. On a cheap BOMA inrunner I was already able to do 45mph at 72 volts. I'm hoping for a good bit better than that on the big block!

 

[John Bozi]

Electricgod,

Just checking in here, that it isn't overlooked. What kind of reduction are you planning to use for your EV with the big block?

Because the amazing power heat handling you may have read me and many others mention is totally dependent on Mike's 1:30 or whatever....

I don't think the big block will be the amazing dream motor without ....

As mentioned about DH bikes. One thing to still remember that they are made tough in their intended use.

As SM got right, mid drives are awesome downhill. (when the motor is not in use)

Downhill bikes were still not designed to have 3kw pumped through their drive train. I might even suggest that a hardtail would be better off to take massive amounts through the swing arms without pivot points. just a guess...

 

[Wheazel]

Spinning...et al...

I'm not really into bikes, and I know lots of people are buying the complete kit for their mountain bike or cruiser or whatever. I personally don't want pedals on my EV at all so that mostly means mopeds, kick scooters and motor cycle conversions (I'll get to this one eventually). For those types of EV's, power is often times the thing that isn't the problem. THe system can already handle the loads developed by the motor. I'll probably build a bicycle eventually just to say I have done one, but to me, if I never see pedals on an EV...well I'm OK with that. I'll probably build a motor cycle before I do a mountain bike.

To me, the fact that a flimsy bike frame can endure the loads that one of these kits puts on it is virtually miraculous. And that's just the frame. A friend of mine used to do triathlons and he told me the best athletes can only sustain around 300-400 watts. Lets pretend that all bicycles are manufactured to have a 500 watt limit so that reliability is reasonably good. I know that is probably laughable in 75-80% of bikes, but bear with me. Well then we are going to throw a motor that can deliver 4-5 times the human wattage (1500 watt motor) on that bike...ummm...how can the bike EVER handle that amount of torque and then lets double that! Oh wait...but I want to run my motor at 6000 watts...ummm...OK...something isn't going to last very long. Hence my desire to not make an EV bike...LOL! Solid props to people that get frames and components to last for years while pushing these wattage levels through something designed for maybe 300 watts.

It is not accurate to make those load assumptions. Yes one might throw 5 or 10times the design power into a bike. And how you do it matters alot. If you increase the power of the bike, all other loadscenarios will not follow linearly. To name an example: A downhill bike with a mxus 3000 hubmotor pulling up to 10kw, might actually mean the steeringhead sees lower peakloads than its intended downhill use. How often do you go big air with a 10kg hub in the back? The fork/brakes might see higher loads from braking and ofcourse you would need to reinforce the parts where you attach the motor. (good torquearms at the very least). The same applies to middrives like the LR kit. You will have much higher pullforce in the chaintransmission and those parts will wear/break, and maybe the frame isnt up to the work, but compressing a straight rod ( with some offset but also supports) is otherwise a pretty good load situation. Its more to it than just peak numbers, thats why downhill bikes often has been proven as decent mopeds/light motorcycles. They are designed for high speeds more weight and rough terrain after all. And the human input is minor, as most of the power comes from the potential energy transformed to speed when going downhill. Thats a significant power.

If we look at the lightest of the lightest roadracers, then most of the all included power statement can be applied.

 

[ElectricGod]

Electricgod,

Just checking in here, that it isn't overlooked. What kind of reduction are you planning to use for your EV with the big block?

Because the amazing power heat handling you may have read me and many others mention is totally dependent on Mike's 1:30 or whatever....

I don't think the big block will be the amazing dream motor without ....

As mentioned about DH bikes. One thing to still remember that they are made tough in their intended use.

As SM got right, mid drives are awesome downhill. (when the motor is not in use)

Downhill bikes were still not designed to have 3kw pumped through their drive train. I might even suggest that a hardtail would be better off to take massive amounts through the swing arms without pivot points. just a guess...

I don't know the Kv of this motor. I was going to get one and then find out by direct measurement with a tachometer what it ran at on 72 volts. Then I would get the appropriate sprockets.

 

[LightningRods]

62 rpm/volt for the Big Block
67 rpm/volt for the Small Block

 

[stonezone]

I'm trying to finish up a beta version of these brackets with the actual spacers, standoffs and hardware for testing. I'm going to send it to someone that I trust for durability testing and possibly more development. I'm not rushing a solution for the Cyclone. Customers are already angry about what a POS the brackets are. I don't want to get any of that on me.

I'm here for you mike; you can always count on me to break something

 

[ElectricGod]

62 rpm/volt for the Big Block
67 rpm/volt for the Small Block

Well that helps a lot. Thanks

 

[LightningRods]

I'm here for you mike; you can always count on me to break something

Breaking things isn't the helpful part. Any dolt can break things. When you break parts you figure out why it broke, fix it yourself, and then help me make the part better for everyone's benefit. That's why you're the Top Secret Lightning Rods Proving Grounds. Plus you live in Hawaii, which is cool. 8)

 

[John Bozi]

I'm trying to finish up a beta version of these brackets with the actual spacers, standoffs and hardware for testing. I'm going to send it to someone that I trust for durability testing and possibly more development. I'm not rushing a solution for the Cyclone. Customers are already angry about what a POS the brackets are. I don't want to get any of that on me.

I'm here for you mike; you can always count on me to break something

SZ I've always been jealous of your angelic position in Mike's secret testing lab. I'd be the son from hell. I try Mike, I really do. Here's me running only 25 amps @ 72v nominal while waiting for the Swiss to arrive.

Sorry about the metaphoric language.

[youtube]aG26xKATC0w[/youtube]

 

[notger]

Hi,

I'm still using my original GNG-LR Mutant, with some LR-Update parts (from the beginning times, but afer v1.1)
One updated part ist the LR-Upper jackshaft made from steel not the stainless one.
this thing is pretty bent by now, but still useable.

How are peoples stainless steel jackshafts dealing with 2500watt smallblock?
I'm planning to do some work on my kit, and if the stainless is also too weak i would change it with ? maybe 16mm
would also be convenient to have a 16mm "standard" on the motor and upper jackshaft, the bearingballs will be pretty small then, but with high quality bearing it will work for a while i guess.

thanks for your experiences

Gernot

Ps.: i do not have my motor opened now, but does anyone still know the diameter of the motor-jackshaft at the part where the rotor is stuck into the long-notch? also 16mm, or 17?

 

[LightningRods]

The motor shaft where it passes through the rotor is about 14.75mm. The output side bearing has an I.D. of 17mm.

My jackshaft axles are currently 12mm diameter solid 4140 hardened chrome moly steel. This summer I will be switching over to 15mm 4140. That's as large an I.D. as we can go to without a much larger bearing O.D. which would mean all new housings, lockrings, etc.

 

[notger]

So will cou change the other parts then this summer? bearing-housing-diameter, and then also the sheets?, or will they stays as they are with 15mm jackshaft.

ok, so 15mm could e a good standard for both of them motor and reduction jackshaft ? what do you think, still storng enough on the motor shaft?
I just love standards, where everything fits everywhere, and i just need one drill, and notch tool for all of them.

Hey michael, ist the price list on your website still up-to-date ?

 

[LightningRods]

Only the jackshaft axles, bearings and sprockets will change. The housing change was only necessary if we went beyond 15mm. I may go to a 3/4" axle on a single speed design that I'm working on. That will require all of the new parts. Change is expensive and time consuming.

15mm could be the standard for the motor output as well. I have a couple of considerations in making that work. If that checks out I will go to all 15mm. The motor axle is a fairly low stress point in the drive since it's full speed with no reduction. At 1/5 the speed the jackshaft axle sees 5x the torque.

I think the price list is still good. I haven't raised any prices but I have upgraded some parts to more expensive materials. That may not have been updated yet.

 

[notger]

I think the price list is still good. I haven't raised any prices but I have upgraded some parts to more expensive materials. That may not have been updated yet.

Sounds good.
How is it right now with ordering just spare parts and no complete kits, timewise i mean.
i guess by now you have stocked all the parts of your different mid drives, and do not produce them separate anymore.

And just out of interest Michael, how constant and trustworthy ist your chinese motor supplier, in measurements continuity of quality and specially measurements, do you always get a similar of even same stock of big and smallblocks ?
Would you actually be willing to share the dealers contact, cause i'm kind of in the middle of you in the US und them in Asia. So one or two motors i would order do not have to travel once arounf the globe to reach me.
I once spent nights in contacting taobao, alibaba dealers but measurements of those motors were alsways a bit different the housing seems to be kind of an asian standard.

 

[ElectricGod]

I think the price list is still good. I haven't raised any prices but I have upgraded some parts to more expensive materials. That may not have been updated yet.

Sounds good.
How is it right now with ordering just spare parts and no complete kits, timewise i mean.
i guess by now you have stocked all the parts of your different mid drives, and do not produce them separate anymore.

And just out of interest Michael, how constant and trustworthy ist your chinese motor supplier, in measurements continuity of quality and specially measurements, do you always get a similar of even same stock of big and smallblocks ?
Would you actually be willing to share the dealers contact, cause i'm kind of in the middle of you in the US und them in Asia. So one or two motors i would order do not have to travel once arounf the globe to reach me.
I once spent nights in contacting taobao, alibaba dealers but measurements of those motors were alsways a bit different the housing seems to be kind of an asian standard.

I've tried to buy direct from alibaba vendors several times. Only once did it work out. All the rest of the times, they jerked me around and acted obtuse when I asked questions they didn't want to answer. Eventually you find either you have the patience of Ghandi or you move on to something else. I tend to move on if I get jerked around too much. My experience has mostly been that Chinese sellers will lie to you just to sell you some product. Ask tons of questions and then expect to ask the same questions multiple times. You will get ignored, be given a horribly worded Chinglish answer or just wrong information. And they will be annoyed with you when you you can't make heads or tails of what they say.

 

[LightningRods]

I've tried to buy direct from alibaba several times. Only once did it work out. All the rest of the times, they jerked me around and acted obtuse when I asked questions they didn't want to answer. Eventually you find either you have the patience of Ghandi or you move on to something else. I tend to move on if I get jerked around too much. My experience has mostly been that Chinese sellers will lie to you just to sell you some product. Ask tons of questions and then expect to ask the same questions multiple times. You will get ignored, be given a horribly worded Chinglish answer or just wrong information. And they will be annoyed with you when you you can't make heads or tails of what they say.

This sounds about right. I've tried many Taobao vendors and this was pretty much my experience. These motors look superficially the same but the quality varies hugely as do the case widths and the types of connectors they're shipped with. One vendor shipped motors that were dead about 1 out of 5. It took two years of trial and error and hundreds of dollars of loss to find my current supplier. They are reliable and deliver consistently good product.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Alibaba and aliexpress are like the Chinese EBAY. Alibaba is focused more on large business-to-business orders, and aliexpress is more geared towards individual sales. It's a jungle out there. You may find someone who bought something on aliexpress and they had a good experience, but...do your homework, don't just trust what I say. Many vendors on the "ali's" are unscrupulous middle-men, who know there is a certain amount of "gray area" in the truth. If you are not completely happy with your purchase, just pay the huge shipping cost to send it back, right? They know most people would rather eat the one out of five "DOA" products (or wrong products) rather than actually pay to send it back, and then you "hope" they honor their implied warranty.

Most of the posters here have no idea huge HUGE the Chinese market is. There are about 6 billion people on this planet, and one billion or so speak Chinese. There are DOZENS of companies that make a similar product to the small-block/big-block. If Mike gets one failed motor out of a couple dozen...the customer never sees it. What is that kind of support and screening worth?

 

[LightningRods]

I've gotten motors with dead hall sensors, motors with the wrong width rotor inside, motors with the phase wires randomly switched around (common with one variety that I tried), motors where the case width varied 2-3mm between different examples of the 'same' motor, I even took one motor apart and found an M6 nut stuck to the magnetic rotor.

I can't do all of the homework, take all of the risks, put all of the time in and then give the results away. I have people write and ask for my CAD drawings so that they can cut free parts for themselves and their friends. When I used to sell art I constantly had people show up at the shows and eat the free food, drink the free wine, entertain themselves looking at the art and then buy not a thing. That is why I no longer sell art.

 

[notger]

What is that kind of support and screening worth?

Probably not, i never actually ordered anything from there, but true, most of the contacts i had with some vendors were way too shakey for me to really order there.

So, than thanks to you michael, to do this job for us, an taking the risk of getting shitty motors (or even none)
I guess ill wait until some 15mm stainless jackshafts are ready and order a motor too, just as spare motor ! (I still use the original 68mm wide gng motor, and it does not want to break)

My jackshaft axles are currently 12mm diameter solid 4140 hardened chrome moly steel. This summer I will be switching over to 15mm 4140

Are you still in the planning process, or would one 15mm stainless-Spindle be ready for shipping,
i would be up to order one.

Gernot

 

[stonezone]

well as my experience and shop grows, it gets easier and more fun for me to ride, break, brainstorm, fabricate, test, modify... and it's only getting better. moving down the street soon and will have a private little ebike loop right out the back yard.... and mabye i'll be able to stash away enough cash for a little mill.

YEAAAHHHHAHAAAA

 

[notger]

62 rpm/volt for the Big Block
67 rpm/volt for the Small Block

since one week I'm owner of an adaptto, an just tried it with my gng-mutant.
The adaptto has a feature called "autodetect" and it "detects" my orignial GNG to be 55 KV ?
might adaptto detect wrong, or did anyone of you ever check the KV of the LR or GNG Motors?


is there actually a Motor diagramm about this kind of motor somewhere around ?
Cause i just recently did some changes on my kit, and tried to calculate the cadence beforehand.
I'm still using bike chains in the secondary stage and 60Volt.
luckiely reality beatet mathematics and the calculated cadence of 245 rpm and 104km/h was not reality.
so i guess without diagramm and knowing the motors most efficient "zones" i can not make any realistic calculations.
But those calculations were made with 67 KV, who knows it might be 55, like adaptto "autodetected"