LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

What, the Swiss? You can't judge by them. They crazy!

3200-watts through bicycle chain and sprockets?!...Daaaaayum!

 

[John Bozi]

lost me on what I guess is an in joke? The punch might be.... if you hadn't noticed, it is a kit advertised as 3kw continuous made for bicycles. By kit standards it suggests peaks of near double that. And yes 5kw makes the kit and the bike turn to butter. Fun bad for your heart wallet burning amphetamine laced butter.
I have ordered a DT SWISS as my final attempt to make this kit work at the advertised continuous power. Hopefully the last laugh won't be on me and if I can't judge by the Swiss and another few hundred in parts what can I judge by...?

Anyways, I can definitely now say that the simple 3 speed switch is the best addition I've made to the bike. Thing to remember is don't hit the switch while throttle is on, or else you get a nice full powered kick. Setting 1 the slowest, you would think it won't be enough when approaching a steep bit but the amps just keep pumping higher and higher the more when needed. Really making steep hairy terrain even more simple to negotiate without the worry of a throttle twitch sending you into a tree.

your breaker.

JB

 

[ElectricGod]

I can't wait for my big block to be ready.

 

[spinningmagnets]

it is a kit advertised as 3kw continuous made for bicycles

I'm sorry to hear of the breakages you've experienced. One of the great difficulties surrounding a company providing components to customers that are capable of much higher-than-average power is that; The company has no control over how that extra power is used. As you have mentioned, the 3-way power switch is very useful in making the throttle more adjustable for conditions.

The amount of throttle ramp is also adjustable through the Cycle Analyst, to prevent hand slippages from applying a sudden full-power jolt. Some riders enjoy the ability to choose a fairly stout application of power, and applying the max power is a subtle balance...it is easy to go a bit too far. Should Mike sell weaker motors? It is up to the customer to determine how much power can safely be applied to their bike.

The other benefit to the big block is that when a rider who uses a style of riding where high amps are frequently applied, it can sometimes lead to a very hot small-block motor, in spite of its inherent better-than-average heat-shedding capability. By upgrading to the big block, motor heat from frequent high amps would become much less of an issue. However, the extra power capability of the big block can accidentally (or purposefully) be used too abruptly, and lead to breakages.

Mike has no control over the type of rear wheel sprockets the customers uses, or how abruptly power is applied. I don't know the details of how you experienced damage to your gear-train, but clearly, something needs to change for you to be able to reliably have a fun day riding, instead of being broken down in the bush.

 

[Föppel]

John Bozi:
can understand your mood. To replace the old jackshaft with a new one is not a "quick repair"
Especialy when old axle bend, its hard to get her out of the housing, even with haevy tools.
Had to do that 3 times on firends bike, needed a lot of patience and some reggae music... not a srewdrifer-task. More a job for a sledgehammer, depends on how much the old axle bent.

Hope that the DT Swiss will also solve your problems, there would be even stronger "high torque"-ones but cost much more money.
You do pionier-work on that, + your hills look cracy steep.
Did you upgrade to the new 15mm jackshaft? / is this now available?.. for the smallblock, the new 12mm stainless works very well, no problems since.


Mike:
As a last upgrade for the smallblock-kit on our bikes, we would like the small sheet, that holds the Jackshaft-Setscrews, made from unbendable stainless steel.

Spinning Magnets:
im not sure how much more power i can give on the Bike-Chain, but im willing to try whats possible . Since i changed my reduction and did all the stuff i wrote in my "Review", everything runs smooth. Same Chain on since.
I think maybe the bike chain holds up because i changed the overdrife (on Bike-chain) in a 1:1-like reduction. Not sure if that makes sense, just a feeling.
Since then i havent problems with the Bikechain, Dereilleur or sprokets. (only use the biggest 3 Sprokets 90% of the time)


now, that all the Bikes run so problem free, i started to get sloppy and didnt screw the pedal on the crankarm propper...

it came loose, i screewed it on only by hand an then ride another 10 km without checking on it (totally forgot about it while riding)... that was dumb.
Threads on the Alu-Crankarm are no more. Just a hole there now.

Have an other ISIS-Crankarm here to replace, will do that tomorrow and maybe writing about it in the "Review".
Its also not a easy thing to do, since i needed to make a spezial tool to remove the WI FW. My normal FW-removal tool (good for ACS) didnt work on the WI (little to small, slipped when apllying force on it)


noobquestion:
how much amps can i get out of a Infineon 12 fet (hall sensors) thats rated 40 amps max?
have CA now set to 46 Amp and 3800 Watt @ 75Volt-Pack (near 90V fresh from the charger), but cant see much over 3200 Watt on the display. Wondering if controller dont allow more, or what else may be the limiting factor.?

Cheers guys

 

[John Bozi]

No preaching to the converted needed.

Mike said something about the outershell being an area to work on for future improvement where I added info that it was less a problem than the inner parts.

I share real world experiences running and Foepel asked was it my new wheel that broke and I replied with a yes...

I wasn't complaining.

Being sarcastic about the power limit I had set was a tad odd given this train of discussion.

If this thread should only be a happy clappy one sided infomercial where people have actually experience testing these products get ridiculed by people who haven't, Dayuum!

Rhetorically, should he use such a big motor? Yes, heat builds up over the course of a ride and the Big one will take more of it. I found that I could do the exact same terrain fast high powered or slow low powered and the heat was the same. Going slower means you are bogging it down in heat and going faster means you are pumping more heat in.

The best feature of the kit is there is no terrain that I have had to stop because of heat.

 

[LightningRods]

Mike:
As a last upgrade for the smallblock-kit on our bikes, we would like the small sheet, that holds the Jackshaft-Setscrews, made from unbendable stainless steel.

Stephen: My new upper adjuster plates are not stainless steel but they are 10 gauge mild steel. I've also relocated the adjuster screws to the inside of the upper side plates. This makes it easier to tighten the lock rings on the jackshaft housing and also allows less leverage on the plate from the adjuster screws. You will need to either enlarge the slots in the side plates that the thicker adjuster plate fits into or buy new side plates with the larger slots already laser cut.

Stainless steel wouldn't be appreciably stronger than mild steel in this application.

 

[ElectricGod]

It looks to me that these kits are pretty solid and any improvements that can be made to them are always in the works. Of course things can go wrong. However, the "weak link in the chain" is often times the bike. LOL. No bike was ever built to hold up to the forces applied to them by a motor like the 3000 watt unit. No human with muscles alone can apply that kind of continuous force for more than a few minutes. So of course things are going to break. Add to that the fact that it's so easy to set your gearing too close to 1:1 on a bike and really stress things and this motor can deliver the "stress". It's just my opinion, but build your system to handle the forces applied to it or expect it to break when you exceed its limits.

 

[LightningRods]

We're trying to cheat the laws of physics here. There is a reason that motorcycles weigh more than bicycles: strength. They also have better brakes, heavier tires that handle speed better, stronger drivelines and on and on. Sports cars that are built the way that we are building our electric bikes have similar issues. Put a turbo on the motor and the barely adequate rear differential explodes. Or the gear box packs it in. But they are tons of fun while they last.

I'm excited about working with the Qulbix frames. They seem like they are built appropriately to the power that the big block is capable of.

 

[John Bozi]

I wouldn't have a beer gut without

We're trying to cheat the laws of physics here. ...............
But they are tons of fun while they last.

Agreed.

Have had a few fun rides with the new set up, no issues under 3kw. Mostly under 2kw and it climbs most still.

Temporary swing arm tensioner makes a world of difference holding the chain in place off road.

The lively dialogue here makes for great titles and captions. Thanks.

[youtube]CfEMpMiX_U8[/youtube]

I may one day put a 9 speed cassette back on this and run it low powered nearer bafang power levels. I have run a bafang on similar terrain but had to walk up some of it. (good exercise) and had to stop for it to cool off many times. Would definitely not need a thermo probe or CA after programming the lyen or need to stop for a cool off.

 

[stonezone]

Jitsi lists their crank's threaded spigot at 13mm long. The Cyclone spigot is 15mm long. Normal freewheel cog threads are 11mm to the shoulder. I have no idea what the Jitsi crank would do to sprocket alignment. That could be adjusted with spacers.

sorry, haven't checked here in a minute...

yea I turned out a spacer on my lathe to keep things in line. Nothing special that couldn't be done by stacking washers from the local hardware store, but chicks love it when they find out you have a ghetto (and out of alignment) grizzly that you barely know how to use

I've broken almost everything, but my DT-Swiss rear Hub has been solid. I've cleaned/greased it a handful of times when i've played with the rear cogs... Buy one.

For chain: i'm not having issues with the KMC Z610HX. I found out that the 3/16" is just as strong as the 1/8", and only a bit weaker than the 3/16". The weight and resulting chain slap of the 3/16" was a deal-breaker for me, but it was the first time I had no slipping before I went the zip-tie route.

Lastly, I ended up zip-tying my derailleur to the cog and that eliminated all slip (even on a 14t, but i was babying it as something was bound to break).

Jump on a plane Mike and we'll ride!

SZ

 

[izeman]

For chain: i'm not having issues with the KMC Z610HX. I found out that the 3/16" is just as strong as the 1/8", and only a bit weaker than the 3/16". The weight and resulting chain slap of the 3/16" was a deal-breaker for me, but it was the first time I had no slipping before I went the zip-tie route.

is the KMC chain for the secondary reduction? or is it the "regular" chain between BB and rear wheel?

 

[John Bozi]

the rest is 219 on LR md

Maybe I've been lucky but the wipperman 7E8 has been the same chain that has been on the kit through many a rebuild. I doubt anyone would need more than that. It didn't fail when bicycle components and kit components did several times. Only thing you can say bad about it is that if it had failed it might have saved the rest. (cheaper and easier to replace a bicycle chain than custom kit parts or a bicycle wheel).

The rear sprocket, and a double set of adapters are also undamaged through tons of power from either origin8 or fouriers. Some bicycle components are made to last especially in single speed mode where they are aligned to perfection.

No need to go heavier chain unless you have modded up the whole kit and bike to stop steel bending.

 

[izeman]

ok. thanks. i was a bit wondering how a single speed chain could fit a geared setup. but the bmx chain is intended to be used in a single speed bike.
i personally ride the wippermann connex 808 which is for 8 speed cassettes.
i will look for #219 chain for the secondary reduction then.

 

[Ecyclist]

john,

the thud transmission looks like something out of the 1930's my dad and grandpa built for pulling the sand drag at our sand pit. Most modern transmissions avoid parallel shafts because of eccentric loading, high tooth pressures and size. Todays silent transmissions use planetary gears where you get concentric loading, lower tooth pressures and compactness. There are plenty of 2 speed planetary gear transmissions out there for purchase.

see: http://www.apexdynamicsusa.com/products/in-line-planetary-gearboxes.html

find the PL model at the bottom of the page.

http://www.apexdynamicsusa.com/products/pl-series-high-precision-planetary-gearboxes.html

The PL series can take 143 NM of torque.

Apex planetary gearboxes look very nice. The problem is the price. PL series, an econo model, with 70x70 mm frame and 16:1 ratio is $869.00. This one is rated at 39 Nm. Maybe a little pricey for a bike build.
I was lucky to intercept from an industrial surplus store a 16:1 gearbox for $100.
I'm planning to use it to build my own e-bike.
I'm still on my learning curve but close to buying a motor, a controller, a battery.
This is going to be fun.

 

[izeman]

Do you know the torque rating for the gearbox? Otherwise it may be useless.

 

[robocam]

People keep talking about a power limit of bicycle components, but torque is what kills components, not power. You could just speed up the chain to increase the power without putting additional strain on the chain. For example, if you ran a higher voltage to get things spinning faster, your components shouldn't be under as much stress (assuming you also run less current so that the torque is reduced).

This is the concept behind the torque tube (equivalent of a driveshaft) in the Corvette. It turns at engine speed. It doesn't have its torque multiplied by the transmission because the transmission is in the back over the rear wheels. Because of this, it is of a much smaller diameter than a typical drive shaft.

People need to be running their motors and chains faster to make components last longer. How do you do this? You run smaller bike chainrings up front and use larger sprockets in the cassette. You're not likely to break a chain by running it faster, but you sure will break it if you pull too hard on it.

So what I'm saying is that people should try not to always equate certain wattage levels as automatically being dangerous to bicycle components.

 

[Ecyclist]

Do you know the torque rating for the gearbox? Otherwise it may be useless.

About 45 Nm. Give or take 2 Nm.

 

[John Bozi]

Robocam it is a juggling act.

Not everyone wants to go to 100v or higher if that's what you mean with voltages.
I am running 20s out of battery configuration convenience but 21s would work nicely with what a lot of the infineon controllers are happy at.
The primary line screams at 80v and all my pants that I have worn riding are spattered by lube and grit. (Need to make a chain guard). Can't imagine this at higher rpm.

Not sure if you mean less reduction on the jackshaft? You could do that with a bigger sprocket on the right side and a bigger rear sprocket. I am not sure if you are running this kit and how you go about pedal cadence / sprocket sizing, please share your t counts. power or torque still needs to meet the rachets and pawl system somewhere regardless of sprocket sizes if you want a decent top speed.

One solution to reducing stress in the whole chain train and rachets and bearings and still keep the torque we want for climbing is a smaller wheel. Off road performance then gets worse and pedal cadence .....

I recently mentioned 40a 3200w as my new controllers peak limit, but hardly touched that in baby mode and have since been test riding at 25amps 2000w to see if I can live with it and it's enough for 99% of sane riding. I think everything would hold up fine at this limit. Considering a 9 fet or even 6 fet........ With a 6 fet you could pretty much write off the need for the CA throttle taming or thermo monitoring. The angel me would please Mike to no end.

After a couple of beers it's the adrenalin pumping mountain goat climbs which are the most exhilarating parts of riding for me unfortunately which require a minimum of 3kw (still with a bit of bogging). Then then then then walking home....

 

[LightningRods]

People keep talking about a power limit of bicycle components, but torque is what kills components, not power. You could just speed up the chain to increase the power without putting additional strain on the chain. For example, if you ran a higher voltage to get things spinning faster, your components shouldn't be under as much stress (assuming you also run less current so that the torque is reduced).

This is the concept behind the torque tube (equivalent of a driveshaft) in the Corvette. It turns at engine speed. It doesn't have its torque multiplied by the transmission because the transmission is in the back over the rear wheels. Because of this, it is of a much smaller diameter than a typical drive shaft.

People need to be running their motors and chains faster to make components last longer. How do you do this? You run smaller bike chainrings up front and use larger sprockets in the cassette. You're not likely to break a chain by running it faster, but you sure will break it if you pull too hard on it.

So what I'm saying is that people should try not to always equate certain wattage levels as automatically being dangerous to bicycle components.

At some point we have to use reduction gearing to get motor rotation (2,000 to 10,000 rpm max) down to wheel rotation (300-500 typical max). A high speed driveline does have less stress until the reduction brings the wheel rotation down where we want it. This multiplies the torque the same way that a mid drive with 30:1 to the chainwheel does. You may find that a Corvette with rear transaxle can run a smaller driveshaft inside of it's torque tube, but the rear axles will have to be the same strength as a 'Vette with a front mounted transmission. Once the motor goes through reduction, wherever it happens, torque increases.

With a lot of my more recent mid drive designs I've been intentionally not running the motor power through the chainwheel. This is because the chainwheel overdrives to the rear wheel. On a conventional mid drive we reduce the motor 30:1 and then overdrive it back up 1:4. It's much better to run a straight 8:1 reduction on the motor and avoid all of that stress at the chainwheel. This juncture of reduction and overdrive is why most mid drives have so much trouble with bending secondary jackshaft axles and destroying the freewheel in the chainwheel. I use the example of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object. That's reduction meeting overdrive.

Torque is what makes things happen in terms of climbing and accelerating. Some high rpm/low torque motors can use lots of reduction to produce torque but as I said before, you end up back at the same place at the rear wheel. For the same performance, whether the watt ratings are the same or not, a high rpm system and a low rpm system have to produce the same twist (torque) at the rear wheel.

 

[John Bozi]

Since you guys use heavier vehicles metaphorically.

I recently weighed my downhill "maximum suspension and brakes" bicycle with 10ah 12 fet controller, CA and big block kit.

37kg
3000w or 4 HP

The power to weight ratio is good to my ears considering I can pedal this thing, pick it up over logs and it can pull a 90kg man up stuff endlessly without having to stop to let the motor cool down, that a hub motor would have to after a minute.

Not sure how to calculate that ratio to a pitbike which is the equivalent sort of thing I would ride if the police didn't nab me going to the places I love to frequent. I guess 3 x the weight and power?

 

[ElectricGod]

Robocam it is a juggling act.

Not everyone wants to go to 100v or higher if that's what you mean with voltages.
I am running 20s out of battery configuration convenience but 21s would work nicely with what a lot of the infineon controllers are happy at.
The primary line screams at 80v and all my pants that I have worn riding are spattered by lube and grit. (Need to make a chain guard). Can't imagine this at higher rpm.

Not sure if you mean less reduction on the jackshaft? You could do that with a bigger sprocket on the right side and a bigger rear sprocket. I am not sure if you are running this kit and how you go about pedal cadence / sprocket sizing, please share your t counts. power or torque still needs to meet the rachets and pawl system somewhere regardless of sprocket sizes if you want a decent top speed.

One solution to reducing stress in the whole chain train and rachets and bearings and still keep the torque we want for climbing is a smaller wheel. Off road performance then gets worse and pedal cadence .....

I recently mentioned 40a 3200w as my new controllers peak limit, but hardly touched that in baby mode and have since been test riding at 25amps 2000w to see if I can live with it and it's enough for 99% of sane riding. I think everything would hold up fine at this limit. Considering a 9 fet or even 6 fet........ With a 6 fet you could pretty much write off the need for the CA throttle taming or thermo monitoring. The angel me would please Mike to no end.

After a couple of beers it's the adrenalin pumping mountain goat climbs which are the most exhilarating parts of riding for me unfortunately which require a minimum of 3kw (still with a bit of bogging). Then then then then walking home....

...what lightningrods said...

Torque kills parts, but how do you get torque...watts. Yes you can run a 200 watt outrunner at 50,000 rpms and then reduce it down to wheel RPMs but it's still not going to carry lard butt around. IE: I need a motor that when I reduce it down can produce the torque needed to make me "go" and that pretty much means watts. And that means at some point in the mechanics that some component is going to see lots of torque. For me that's the chain and freewheel on the back wheel.

 

[LightningRods]

There's no avoiding it: Run less power or make it stronger. Personally I prefer to make it stronger.

 

[ElectricGod]

Any news on the new order of big block motors? I just killed my motor. Everything was fine and I was topping out at 150F when riding hard and then suddenly 2 days ago it self destructed. I had just looked at my temp meter and it was reading 124F, the motor made an odd sound and I looked at the temp meter again and it was at 200F and then smoke blew out of it. I checked the windings 4 days ago and everything looked great. I don't know what happened other than insulation failure from vibration? I now have a motor to rewind, but in between time my ride is busted.

 

[LightningRods]

I have both big blocks and small blocks available. I let my inventory get thin at the end of the year because I get taxed on it. If I'm not real quick ordering in the new year the Chinese go on vacation and won't talk to me for a month. We should have a steady supply of both motors for the rest of this year.