LightningRods mid drive kit

[sparkz]

I'm currently working on a 219 single speed final drive. I'm doing right side drive because pedal power is irrelevant above 2000 watts. I looked into left hand single speed final drive. The complications created by trying to mount a sprocket next to the disc rotor, and then trying to fit the disc brake calliper, make it a very difficult DIY job. Right side drive leaves the disc brake alone. You can still pedal along single speed up to about 20 mph or so for appearances sake.

After a lengthy delay, I'm back building my fatbike hill-climber. Got the Big Block kit, but don't anticipate running it beyond 2kW. I'm willing to give up the front and rear gearing if I could find the appropriate IGH. (My friend owns an Optibike with the 14-speed Rohloff hub, but never uses more than 4 or 5 gears.) One of the trike hubs with 3 or 5 gears would be perfect. I love LR's #219 + single speed final drive idea. Question: does anyone know of a hub with beefy enough torque-handling that would fit a Surly Rolling Darryl wheel? The combo would be perfect for me.

 

[xnoitulos]

I just picked up the new 72v luna battery pack and my Big Block kit has never run better! I see the small block getting pushed, but haven't' seen any Big Block results. I'm curious if anyone has maxed out a Big Block? Will it take 72v @ 100Amps if I get a second pack. What's the maximum recommended voltage? Read about overvoltage and saturation, but how can you determine that condition? Temperature alone?

Also, I'm trying to figure out the mechanical rpm at 84v? I read the Big Block is a 6 pole motor? Any info would be great! (Forgive me if the question has been asked in the previous 160+ pages)

 

[spinningmagnets]

Higher volts can work well with mid drives. When you raise the amps, heat is not the only added issue. Higher amps would provide an instant jolt of acceleration, and higher volts come on in a slightly milder way. With higher volts, you don't need as much throttle to get the same power, and you have the option of running the controller and motor cooler, while still getting good performance.

 

[John Bozi]

Totally agree with what spinningmagnets said above.

I'm running my big block mostly at 90-80v x 20-40a. I ran it at lower volts and higher amps too but the instantaneous amp kick is a kit killer. The way the volts pour is a much more intuitive ride experience too.

Seeing your new and haven't read the hundreds of pages, in summary, even though the big block is advertised as a 3000w, you will be forgiven in believing that 3kw continuous of all the parts attached to it will sustain that. It's more like half that.

In a nutshell, unless you mod / replace the hell out of half the parts that came stock, the kit will destroy itself at 7kw if it doesn't destroy the rest of the bike first. I have experienced it at 5kw+ a few times and it is an insane bit of fun but costs more time and money than it is worth.

Please share your experiences of how much you run and what drive train. I highly doubt you would ever need or ever find possible to run more than 2kw through a cassette or 4kw single speed through the standard bicycle drive train continually for a 100ah of riding.

If I hadn't already bought all my batteries and controller and charger, I'd be trying 100v 30a for the win.

 

[John Bozi]

Did a POV vid of the trail I posted a map of on the last page of this thread. Started slow because of a jogger. Jackshaft to BB 219 chain fell off for the first time ever on this kit. First time also any chain problem was a simple put it back on. The spring was not taking up as much slack and these chains have probably stretched a bit from new. (guessing)

Also went down and did the same section that mangled the kit that I recorded at 3.5kw. I stayed at 2.5kw this time.

The motor could have climbed as much elevation at this gradient until the batteries ran out. I was only 40 degrees celcius from about 20 degrees c ambient. The whole ride was under 20 minutes 3.5ah.

[youtube]YRHVTqaf3Vs[/youtube]

 

[xnoitulos]

Please share your experiences of how much you run and what drive train.

I was running a 48v 50A BMS 20Ah luna triangle pack for at least 100Ah before getting the 72v pack with 56Ah run so far. Couple things working for my torque destruction reduction. First, I switched out the 12t #219 cog in the primary and secondary, for an 18t primary, and 15t secondary.




I was running 44t final drive to XT 11-36 cassette, XTR chain. It's important to not use the largest cogs (unless your setup gives you good chain line and your hub/freehub are incredibly strong), I've seen the 36t get bent from human power, let alone a few thousand watts. I run straight chainline on the 4th cog from bottom, and only use 3 up and 3 down from here, avoid top 3 big cogs because chain line is bad, and torque is massive. Rear hub is Ringle with 4 pawls, of course inspected and overhauled before duty.



The 18t and 15t drivers bring top speed up to 47mph at ~2,700w. The same setup with the 72v battery brought top speed to 56mph @ ~4000w. Installed Hookworm 2.5's, Echo 160mm cranks, 48t final drive, and Ultra Heavy Duty freewheel (did have some decent play developing in the HD WhiteInd model, but could have be exacerbated by the chain dropping between the tight motor and chainring clearance). Gears too tall to max them out, but bumped top speed to 58mph. Liked the 44t better as it landed on the 17t (4th cog up) which gave it perfect straight chainline, and I found this gear to have impressive acceleration and still pull to ~42mph. Of course, avoid power shifting, which I've done on other 1,000w bike with DT Swiss/Hugi hub (yeah an OG one), but BAD :x I also set the CA to MaxThrottleUpVolt 2v/s. Even this is plenty aggressive and will let you pull the wheel up in lower gears. I'm going swap out the final drive and try it setup for more torque. As mentioned above, once you have a ton of power you don't need a lot of gears, maybe 1.



So, for this increased voltage approach, I was initially thinking of running a second 72v pack in series @ 144v(168) but quickly read that the CA doesn't like high voltage. Anyone know how high a V3 goes (unmodified)? I see 100v a common limit in electronics. Also read that motors are designed for a certain speed range and they become inefficient and burn up with over voltage. I was curious what the Big Block was designed to do and what had been applied to it? How many turns is it? Another reason I asked is I did read most 160 pages months ago while waiting for the kit and recall seeing the kv of both Small and Large block, but can't seem to find it. Recall it was 138 and 136kv. If it works like I think than at full 84v charge the motor would be spinning at 11,424rpm? Being a 6 pole motor the eRPM would be 68,544rpm which would require the high speed option on a Kelly controller? I'll set this down for now before I ask too many questions and lose everyone

 

[John Bozi]

AWESOME answer mate!

before I read anything I looked at your pics and was going ask questions that then you answered all over.

First was going be where did you get those motor and js sprockets? link please...

I am going down that route if I can work out how to adapt everything.....

I really think 100v is fine a limit to settle on because bearings will probably need to go ceramic (discussed earlier in this thread)

You are also coming to the same conclusions most of us do that its 1. you don't need massive amounts of power if you are running gears or 2. You don't need gears if you running massive amounts of power.

My only next step wish is 2 gears. More economical and more realistic.

My current focus is also creating a bullet proof chain line from bb to rear hub. This sounds silly to some, but I have noticed it might be one of the biggest factors to mangles that are to work out. It doesn't only need a pull up near the bb chain ring but also strangely enough a pull down. (not talking about the top chain line from hub to bb...)

The chain often wants to follow the ring around and up pulling the tensioner to its limit smashing derailing then going into bb area mangling everything in sight.

Mike posted an idea about one a while ago, but I can only now suggest that instead his two rollers, that it is 3 rollers.

 

[ElectricGod]

xnoitulos...

I'm pretty sure the KV is much lower than you remember for the big block. I looked up an e-mail I got from Michael and he said the KV is 62.5. I have a big block that I bought from him and I measured its KV at 48. My best answer to you is check your battery voltage, run the motor with no chain on it at full throttle and use a laser tachometer to determine your motor RPMs and thus actual KV.

BTW...I use kelly controllers with my big block. I don't have the high speed option on either of the ones I use and both have been on my big block. I have a KBS72221E (trapazoidal) and a KLS7230S (sinusoidal) controllers. I can't tell there's a difference between them when riding around. One can do 120 amps continuous and the other 130 amps at a maximum of 84 volts. I run at 82 volts and my big block is insanely powerful at this voltage and pulling 40 amps (3280 watts). I wont increase my phase current beyond that because the motor pulls so hard as to make my ride uncontrollable and I'm just popping wheelies all the time. Taking off from a dead stop is already a practiced effort in leaning forward, barely hitting the throttle and keeping the front wheel on the ground until I get a little speed under me. I can out accelerate most cars and average motor bikes. It's fun to be sitting silently at an intersection and waiting for the light to turn green. The guy in the car next to me is looking my ride over and determining that I'll be slow and he will have lots of time to pass and still be able to get over in front of me. I prove them wrong over and over.

At some point in time I will pull the phases apart in my big block so I can switch from wye to delta via a relay. Then the motor will have a kv of 105.25 based on Michaels numbers or 81.6 for my motor. My current top speed on flat level roadway is 46mph at 3.33:1 gearing. I don't have multiple sprockets to switch to on the fly. I'm running a straight chain line that is 100% 219. With Delta wiring, that's ideally 78mph...oh god save me before I die!

 

[spinningmagnets]

It's not just the input watts, the Lightning Rods kits have a LOT of reduction, so...they can create more wheel torque from the same amount of input watts, compared to a similar motor with less reduction.

 

[Mammalian04]

...I don't have multiple sprockets to switch to on the fly. I'm running a straight chain line that is 100% 219.

Have some photos of this arrangement?
What is your rear hub?
Do you have a 219 chain tensioner?

 

[ElectricGod]

...I don't have multiple sprockets to switch to on the fly. I'm running a straight chain line that is 100% 219.

Have some photos of this arrangement?
What is your rear hub?
Do you have a 219 chain tensioner?

I should point out that I'm not using the full kit...just a few parts from it on a 50cc sized kick scooter. I use a 40 tooth 219 sprocket on a WI freewheel on my back tire. The motor and 12T driver sprocket are the only other parts from the kit I use to make a single reduction drive train. It never breaks, never gives me a seconds worth of problems and is very quiet and simple. In the first picture you can see I have chain tensioners behind the axle. I used to have weaker tensioners that always worked loose and so I added a spring loaded roller type tensioner where those 4 bolt holes are to always soak up the slack, but now that I have moved to these beefy tensioners, my chain never comes loose anymore. They just hold strong. You could do a setup similar to mine, just eliminate the pedals all together as a power source. I climb hills just like a mountain bike does if I put my knobby tired wheels on. Those aluminum brackets and black blocks are for a small deck I added to the back of the scooter.

 

[pkirkll]

I would like to see pictures of the whole scoot, please.

 

[Mammalian04]

Nice. So you adapted a 219 sprocket to a white industries freewheel.

 

[ElectricGod]

Nice. So you adapted a 219 sprocket to a white industries freewheel.

Michael makes an adapter plate that bolts to the free wheel 5 hole bolt pattern and the outer diameter bolt pattern is standard 6 bolt KART. After that any standard KART sprocket will fit on the freewheel. I bought 3 rear sprockets online...66,72 and 80 tooth and used the 66 tooth initially with an 18 tooth driver on the motor. When I discovered that 66 tooth was about all the lower I could go in KART sprockets and driver sprockets didn't come higher than 18 tooth, I was forced to buy the 40 tooth sprocket you see above from Michael. It fits the 5 hole pattern on the freewheel. As a result, the driver sprocket is now 12 tooth. Compared to my old motor 3.33:1 was an insanely low ratio, but when I tested my big block and saw I was getting 48kv, there was no other choice and I was left with just seeing how well the motor did with such a low ratio. Fortunately it does great. Until a couple of weeks ago I was limiting my phase current to 26 amps. It took a little while to get up to top speed, but I was able to keep up with most cars. Now I'm drawing 46 amps max and pretty much no car can accelerate as fast as me, but I have to pay attention to keep the front wheel on the ground or it will throw me off the back. I really need to put a larger driver sprocket on it so some of that crazy torque can be turned into more wheel RPMs. Michael is supposedly making a 50 tooth sprocket that bolts to the free wheel. I want one when he has them ready.

This is the freewheel to KART adapter.

This is the original 66 tooth and 18 tooth setup before I tightened/aligned everything.

And the scooter as it existed before dropping in the big block and a box for batteries over the back wheel.

This is the original scooter before I made any changes to it. HA! That was only last spring! She's been rode hard and had lots of upgrades and mods!

Sorry Michael for taking over your thread!!! If anyone is interested...I run this thing off of used laptop batteries. I literally have about $120 in parts and $0 in laptop batteries to run my scooter. My estimated capacity is about 52,000 watts. There's 3 LIPO packs under the floor, but most of my power is right here. Those are 20S2P by 6 18650 battery holders that are full of scrounged cells. After my initial testing to find weak/bad cells and now it's been since February that I started using laptop cells for power, I have had 6 used cells fail. I ride every day to work and home and elsewhere too. I have a perfectly good SUV that usually just sits there.

You can read all about my scooter here.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=75177

And the laptop battery build out here.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=76013

 

[John Bozi]

I was trying to put into words where I meant an extra roller is beneficial. This is a super temporary fix while I wait for my new sprockets.

The "roller" is just there when the chain wants to pull up and engages then. It's just a slight improvement over having solid material that would rub instead.

You can also see the other end I made roller. That one has a bushing etc from old jockey wheels. All very temporary....

 

[ElectricGod]

Was one chain tensioner not enough.

I was trying to put into words where I meant an extra roller is beneficial. This is a super temporary fix while I wait for my new sprockets.

The "roller" is just there when the chain wants to pull up and engages then. It's just a slight improvement over having solid material that would rub instead.

You can also see the other end I made roller. That one has a bushing etc from old jockey wheels. All very temporary....

 

[xnoitulos]

Are your keys a tight fit in the key ways of the motor and adapter and sprocket? I can see how movement in the key ways may cause breakage issues. The motor to adapter key way on my setup is a different size than the adapter to sprocket key way. I had to get a key that was a perfect fit to make it completely unmovable.

I had the same thing. 4mm key in 3/16" keyway, cracked adapter. Ordered correct key size and seems to be fine. Slightly puzzled, especially that I'm not the only one with the issue. Thought he maybe ran out of key and stuck the 4mm in there to get it out the door.

Also, check out LOCTITE 680 for these gear/shaft interfaces. http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797928521729

Finally got motor temp up above 40C on some insane cones-in-a-soccer-field racing. What is a safe maximum temp for the Big Block? Especially since I want to max out the provided Lyen Mark II controller @ 65 amps

 

[izeman]

What is a safe maximum temp for the Big Block? Especially since I want to max out the provided Lyen Mark II controller @ 65 amps

if you're talking about motor temperatur INSIDE, than you're super safe. case temp is a total different thing.
normally temp sensor are attached to the stator or the windings, which is the hottest place in a motor, and the critical part to watch. everything below 90 is normally fine. but this is just a common guess.
those big blocks are very hard to over heat, espescially if you don't exceed the 3kW limit which i found necessary to limit power train wear acceptable, and if they are mounted where they have some good air flow.

 

[LightningRods]

Billet spool with 6 bolt brake flanges on both sides. 20T 1/2" pitch sprocket made from .135" stainless steel shown.

Sprockets for 6 bolt flange. Top: 16T and 20T 1/2", .135" stainless Middle: 40T and 24T #219, same material Bottom: Alignment spacers, same material.

40T #219 and 16T 1/2" sprockets for Shimano freehub spline, with spacers. Through bolts tie sprocket and spacers into a solid block.

Back side of Shimano assembly.

48T 1/2" chainwheel from .135" stainless steel. Mounts to steel BB plate with hardened Grade 10.9 M8 bolts instead of chainring bolts. Thanks to Cheekybloke for that suggestion.

All of these parts will be available as production parts end of July. Also coming end of July is a final drive chain guide and spring tensioner. It will include a lug to mount a torque brace.

Current production kits are shipping with 15mm diameter 4140 chrome moly jackshaft axles. White Industries HD and UHD freewheels are now available as an optional upgrade.

 

[LightningRods]

Nice. So you adapted a 219 sprocket to a white industries freewheel.

Great scooter build! Direct drive is definitely less trouble when there is room for it.

I make the 40T 219 sprocket that fits 5 bolt freewheels. I will offer other tooth counts if there's demand for it. 24T is the lowest count that will fit on the flange.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I knew you stayed busy, but....Daaaayum. Do you ever sleep?

 

[LightningRods]

I take cat naps. :wink:

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Over the last six months I've completely caught up on my regular production kit orders. I now ship new mid drives in one to four weeks. The new driveline parts shown above will be incorporated into the new Qulbix 76R and 140R mid drive kits. I'll post photos soon.

 

[LightningRods]

This is the chainwheel assembly for the soon to be released Qulbix Big Block mid drive. I'm using less motor reduction, 15:1 compared to the current 31:1, and less overdrive to the rear wheel, around 1.8:1 compared to the current 3.5:1. The overall gearing is the same but stress at the bottom bracket is reduced by 75%. Pedaling along isn't possible above 15 mph or so, but that's not the intention of this bike. The pedals are there to qualify as a bicycle and to provide emergency transport if the rider runs out of battery.

The back of the assembly. Despite reducing torque stress by 3/4 the Qulbix mid drives will have White Industries freewheels, grade 10.9 M8 countersunk bolts retaining the sprocket, and a .135" stainless steel sprocket for 1/8" BMX chain. #219 final drive will also be available.

Having less motor reduction has the added benefit of larger driver sprockets which are stronger, quieter and more durable. Less overdrive to the rear wheel has the same benefit- a larger rear wheel cog with more teeth engaged in the chain, more leverage, and better chain angles. Lots of reduction with lots of overdrive are for "power assist" mid drives, 1500 watts and under.

The reason for all of this driveline work is to take the hobbles off of the big block and see what it is capable of. Up until now the performance has been limited by the driveline. Let's see if we can get past that.

 

[Mammalian04]

Yeehaw!!! Now I'm getting excited!

 

[John Bozi]

Amazing upgrades. No questions that Mike has been lurking and listening.

Mind boggling huge advancements. Well done and can't wait to see people running these with their big blocks.

My only questions are will there be pics of the chainline with double 219 side to side clearing the motor / brackets. Real estate on my 150mm dropouts is still impossible even with a single speed bicycle chain. Rear sprocket wants to be where the dropout is, or inside chainring wants to be where the motor is. And has the 15mm got a higher grade steel adapter and longer shaft?