LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

I received the 50T from Rocket that I was going to use to make a freewheel adapter from. It was also 2 piece. I thought that I had screwed up somehow. I also saw nothing to warn me that I was getting a 2 part sprocket.

How about this- what if I make a 50T stainless steel sprocket with a 5 bolt freewheel center in it? My 40T are working really well. I may as well expand the tooth count options. I promise they'll be one piece.

I'm building a bike right now with a big block and a brand new Rohloff. I'll let you know how it works. Everything I've heard from others has been positive. Other than the price.

 

[ElectricGod]

I like the idea of gears and I'm going to keep working to see if I can't make them work better for high powered mid drives. Single speed is not as attractive, but look at how many people have hub motors. A single speed mid drive has much better balance, the rear suspension (if there is any) works much better, rear wheels don't get beaten to death and you have the advantage of reduction with high power. So even without multiple gears mid drives are worth the effort.

I forget who posted it, but there was a comparison between bike sprockets and 219 sprockets. The teeth are much deeper on 219 and the chain itself has minimal lateral play so probably making some kind of derailleur based gearing wont be doable. Anyway...thanks for posting that info. Maybe a Rohlhoff or Pinion can handle the 3000 watt motor so that gear changes are still possible.

 

[ElectricGod]

I received the 50T from Rocket that I was going to use to make a freewheel adapter from. It was also 2 piece. I thought that I had screwed up somehow. I also saw nothing to warn me that I was getting a 2 part sprocket.

How about this- what if I make a 50T stainless steel sprocket with a 5 bolt freewheel center in it? My 40T are working really well. I may as well expand the tooth count options. I promise they'll be one piece.

I'm building a bike right now with a big block and a brand new Rohloff. I'll let you know how it works. Everything I've heard from others has been positive. Other than the price.

OH cool! I'm seriously considering putting aside $$$ for a Rohlhoff for this very reason. And yes to the 50 tooth single piece sprocket...even if it costs a little more $$ than Rocket sprocket is charging.

 

[LightningRods]

I'll make the 50T a regular production part. It will be $20 just like the 40T.

 

[pkirkll]

Soon....soon...

 

[DanGT86]

Sorry to hear it didnt work out. I tried to warn you guys about specifying non-split sprockets from rocket. I should have put it in bold or red. Glad lightningrods didn't stock up. Anyway mine were the same price unsplit but I did have to tell them not to split them when I ordered. I don't know why they would try to say $200 for custom. They probably don't want to deal with anything but kart customers. Anyway, buy from lightningRods if he is willing to make what you need. Better to deal with someone who wants to make ebike parts rather than Rocket if they are going to be rude with a $200 upcharge.

 

[ElectricGod]

Sorry to hear it didnt work out. I tried to warn you guys about specifying non-split sprockets from rocket. I should have put it in bold or red. Glad lightningrods didn't stock up. Anyway mine were the same price unsplit but I did have to tell them not to split them when I ordered. I don't know why they would try to say $200 for custom. They probably don't want to deal with anything but kart customers. Anyway, buy from lightningRods if he is willing to make what you need. Better to deal with someone who wants to make ebike parts rather than Rocket if they are going to be rude with a $200 upcharge.

Yeah...went back and read what you wrote previously. I basicly snagged the URL after skimming what you wrote and purchased sprockets. Apparently I should have carefully read what you wrote since you are his customer support engineer. Ummm...yeah right! Steve Sands (Who I assume I was talking to on the phone) said that you mentioned it twice...like somehow that excuses his website. LOL! I wonder how you got them for the same price and yet he said they were "custom made" when I called. I'm thinking I made him mad for questioning his web site which I did mention in an e-mail to him. IE: What I posted here earlier.


BTW...Mike (AKA LR) bought a 50 tooth from them too and got the split version. Apparently several smart people are actually really dumb. LOL!

 

[DanGT86]

I work on gokart parts for a buddy sometimes so I have come to expect "standard" to mean split in that world. I cant say that I saw it on the site either.

If LR is willing to make them and use stainless then that will be a better product for ebikes anyway. Especially on the rear wheel. Karts make 20hp but with tiny wheels and way higher rpm. Even then the kart guys go through aluminum sprockets pretty quickly. The same hp at 1/10th the rpm turning 2x the wheel dia is probably far outside of the ideal stress range for those aluminum sprockets.

That being said, when that was my only option for a 50t .219, it didnt really matter what it was made of.

 

[ElectricGod]

I work on gokart parts for a buddy sometimes so I have come to expect "standard" to mean split in that world. I cant say that I saw it on the site either.

If LR is willing to make them and use stainless then that will be a better product for ebikes anyway. Especially on the rear wheel. Karts make 20hp but with tiny wheels and way higher rpm. Even then the kart guys go through aluminum sprockets pretty quickly. The same hp at 1/10th the rpm turning 2x the wheel dia is probably far outside of the ideal stress range for those aluminum sprockets.

That being said, when that was my only option for a 50t .219, it didnt really matter what it was made of.

I'm thinking in the KART world that longevity isn't the priority so aluminum saves weight and lasts long enough to make a race or 2. In the EV world where we want our parts to last as long as possible stainless is a far better solution.

I guess I'll be sending the sprockets I bought back to RocketSprockets for a refund (GRRRR!). The lesson learned here is don't assume anything is what you think it is. AND...don't assume the seller is going to ask you the questions you don't know to ask (Like...do you want 2 piece sprockets?) Or... make it obvious what you are buying. Ask and then confirm that you are getting what you think you are getting and then order the parts.

Ginormous props to LR!!!
For a nominal fee, LR will make anything you want. I'm having him make me a 50 tooth stainless sprocket that will fit a 3 bolt pattern. It will cost more than the 5 bolt pattern sprocket since it's "custom made", but still waaaaaaaay less than $200! The 3 bolt sprocket will go on a moped wheel. And also mad props for the 50 tooth 5 bolt sprockets that he will soon deliver.

 

[LightningRods]

Here is the big block with Rohloff that I'm finishing up.

The motor is reduced 8:1 in two stages. Human power joins with motor power at the lower jackshaft. Human power is overdriven 52T/16T or 3.25:1. The combined power is sent to the Rohloff 16T/16T for a 1:1 transfer. I haven't installed the chain from chainwheel to lower jackshaft yet.

Here is the #219 transfer chain from the upper jackshaft to the lower. 8:1 reduction is difficult to get in one stage but easy to get in two. The drivers can be larger and the driven smaller. The lower jackshaft has a White Industries HD freewheel so that the bike can be pedaled without turning the motor. There is an ACS freewheel cog on the other end of this jackshaft so that the motor can run without turning the pedals. The pedal freewheel is under very low stress.

Pedaling cadence can be adjusted separately of motor speed with this setup. Overall gearing can also be changed dramatically with either a larger front cog or a larger sprocket on the Rohloff. Combined with the Rohlof's wide spread of 14 speeds there is huge flexibility in gearing. The Schlumpf two speed front gearbox would also work with this system.

I'm making drives of this type for the Surly Big Dummy, Extracycle cargo bike, Madsen cargo bike and various Ruff cruiser frames.

 

[pkirkll]

It's beautiful!!!!!!!!

 

[pkirkll]

How much trouble was the chain line and the disc brakes?

 

[LightningRods]

It's beautiful!!!!!!!!

Thanks so much! People saying nice things to me! Who knew it was possible?

The chainline was very difficult to work out in the design phase but the install was easy. I used a 178mm wide ISIS BB and spaced the bearing cups so that the chain lines up perfect. The final drive chain tensions with horizontal dropouts on the frame. The pedal chain will have a DH roller spring loaded on the return side.

The biggest problem with the disc brake is that the horizontal dropout moves the contact point of the rotor. You can't move the axle too far forward or the caliper pad will start to go off the edge of the rotor. Otherwise it wasn't hard. The brakes are Avid 7s.

 

[spinningmagnets]

A work of art! It's so "military" looking. I love that the pedals are completely separate from the "high watt" portion of the drive. Now...customers can just use the BB crankset that came with their particular bike...

Customer installation just got 50% easier, and with the final drive chain passing between the stays, it's easy to remove and replace a worn chain without needing a chain-breaker tool...

 

[ElectricGod]

Will you make a 219 sprocket set for the final stage going to the Rohlhoff? That would "finish" this project.

What's the tooth count on the driver under the transfer chain? 18 tooth? It looks like you have the 40 tooth 219 sprocket on the WI free wheel. Is that true?

Why did you do belt drive off of the motor to the top jack shaft rather than 219 and sprockets? Maybe that was the best way to clear the frame?

How will you mount a sprocket to the end of the lower jackshaft for the chainring/pedals. That shaft coming out looks awfully short to add anything onto.

Overall...WOW...just WOW!!! Will this become a kit we can buy?

 

[pkirkll]

I think I am really excited about this machine art.

I can tell you have put a lot of thought into the Build.

It will be handy in places like where I am prospecting now...BLM ground near Redding, that is loaded with bike trails!

I wore myself out in the heat yesterday and today walking the bike trails to get to the gold areas!!!
I actually had to go to the hospital last night because of muscle craps and dehydration....

I could have made it in 20 minutes with this bike.. And that means
more time to prospect..

Thanks Mike..

A kit ?.... I love the idea..

 

[LightningRods]

Will you make a 219 sprocket set for the final stage going to the Rohlhoff? That would "finish" this project.

I'll do it if it's necessary. The strain on a multiple speed is really low compared to single speed. A quality single run bicycle chain should do the job.

What's the tooth count on the driver under the transfer chain? 18 tooth? It looks like you have the 40 tooth 219 sprocket on the WI free wheel. Is that true?

The secondary side is an 18T driver to the 40T stainless sprocket.

Why did you do belt drive off of the motor to the top jack shaft rather than 219 and sprockets? Maybe that was the best way to clear the frame?

Belt drive is quieter for the high speed primary. Because I'm only doing 8:1 reduction in two stages the drive is a big 25T. It doesn't skip under power.

How will you mount a sprocket to the end of the lower jackshaft for the chainring/pedals. That shaft coming out looks awfully short to add anything onto.

The final driver is already under the guard.

Overall...WOW...just WOW!!! Will this become a kit we can buy?

I've built over a dozen of this type of drive so far. They are available now. Thanks so much for the kind comments. I have worked very hard on all of this.

 

[LightningRods]

I think I am really excited about this machine art.
A kit ?.... I love the idea..

Thanks for your comments. These drives are available as kits. They need to fit a specific bike though. They're not as "universal" as the bottom bracket drives.

 

[pkirkll]

I thought he meant the kit was the whole bike.

 

[LightningRods]

I'm hoping to make a few custom fit kits that will be really well worked out for specific bikes. Customers can then purchase that bike and install my parts with a minimum of hassle. The complete bike business is super competitive. If I did spend three years and every cent I have developing a new e-bike there would be Chinese knock offs within a year.

I have kits for the Surly Big Dummy, the Xtracycle, the Utah Trikes Fat Tad and coming up soon the Qulbix 76 Raptor and 140 Raptor. I'll keep adding specific bike kits as I see good opportunities.

 

[Mammalian04]

Hi Mike! Looks fantastic! Can't wait to get it installed. Is my Luna Drive almost ready?

For others interested, I have a Nuvinci N171 on the back of my Luna and will try that first. If the big block blows it up, I will switch to Mikes new Beefy new rear hub or a Rohloff.

 

[LightningRods]

Your Luna is on my workbench and is nearly done. I'm also working on your two Qulbix big block drives and that's slowing me down a bit.

 

[Mammalian04]

Your Luna is on my workbench and is nearly done. I'm also working on your two Qulbix big block drives and that's slowing me down a bit.

I'm like a kid in the candy store. I don't deserve all this LightningRods decadence.

 

[ElectricGod]

Hi Mike! Looks fantastic! Can't wait to get it installed. Is my Luna Drive almost ready?

For others interested, I have a Nuvinci N171 on the back of my Luna and will try that first. If the big block blows it up, I will switch to Mikes new Beefy new rear hub or a Rohloff.

I haven't heard a lot of good things about the Nuvincis under lots of torque. It would be cool if there was a heavy duty version of these hubs that can stand toe to to with a Rohlhoff.

 

[Samer]

Santa cruz v10