LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

the Setup in the moment it broke the ratchets was 12T to 92T on the 219, and 40T to 15T on the Bike-chain... i think this extreme (big reduction to highspeed-gear on the rear hub) is what you should avoid, is that right?

Does it make sense that the freewheel on the rear hub and bike-chain gets more "Hate" when Bike-chain is pulling with lower speed and bigger torque, than with higher speed and lower torque (but bigger Sproket on the rearwheel)?

Yes this makes absolute sense. The more motor reduction that you use up to the chainwheel, the more torque available at the chainwheel. 12T to 92T is 7.6:1. Multiplied by the 18T to 90T primary belt reduction is 38:1. Not only is the sprocket turning at 1/38th the speed of the motor, the torque has been multiplied 38 times. 2000 watts has become 76,000 watts! When this very powerful torque meets a high gear ratio, you have a version of the irresistible-force-meets-immovable-object. Less reduction will reduce the torque at the chainwheel, and less overdrive will reduce the resistance.

It seems that the hardest thing possible is a slow pedaling cadence with high power and high speed. This is high reduction and high power meeting high resistance. If an IGH were going to have power handling problems I would expect it to be in the overdrive high speed gears where loads are the highest.

On a derailleur bike if all you are concerned with is the most reliable driveline possible and don't care about pedaling at full power, use less reduction and less overdrive. 16:1 motor reduction and 2:1 overdrive give the same final drive of 8:1 as 32:1 motor reduction and 4:1 overdrive. The strain on the drivetrain would be cut at least in half.

 

[Föppel]

okay, thanks for the description, its what i tought, but was not sure about the math.
Yes totally agree, singlespeed with the smallblock makes not that much sense, you have way more fun with multiple gearings.

John Bozi, thanks for the video, cool trick!
i meant i use the cheapest cassette and chain, not the hub + freewheel-mechanism.
for the hub + freewheel-mechanism i would pay a bit extra to get something heavy duty and reliable... but what i found on the internet was to expensive for me.
I have a VISION freehub on my DH-bike, that one is still working fine after "hard" abuse on 2500 watt. Opened it a week ago, no signs of wear (inside).

 

[LightningRods]

Here is a photo of how my mid drives are currently shipping. The entire drive is assembled, the pulleys, belt and guard are installed, the 219 driver, chain, guard and tensioner are installed, and the 219 chain run is pre-aligned. I remove the bottom bracket and chainwheel for shipping because those components have to be removed to install the drive anyway.

 

[r3volved]

That should help ease some weary minds
Nice job. Looks great too

 

[John Bozi]

Can I say I love you?

Thanks for doing a lot of the work for me.

I was wondering if I would need to buy a specific chain link tool before, do I still need it?

Can't wait!!!!!!!!

 

[LightningRods]

I wish I'd known that final assembly was such a big deal for people. I actually enjoy doing the assembly and fine tuning. The reason that I didn't do it in the past was not because of the time it takes, but because the drive is a lot easier to damage during shipping when it's assembled. I now pad the hell out of them and double box them so the freight monkeys won't destroy them.

The drives for the Luna Cycle and cargo bikes like the Big Dummy that don't involve the bottom bracket in the kit will come even more assembled. I'll let the new owner take it partially back apart to put it on their bike.

I will also ship kits with the controller, throttle and even the CA3 connected. I want people to have a good experience and get out and have some fun. I love tinkering with mechanical things so it's hard for me to understand how much some folks hate it. Let me know what you need help with and I'll do the best I can to be accommodating.

 

[LightningRods]

I was pursuing an avenue for torque sensing that it appears that Grin Technologies in Vancouver, BC is also working on. The BeamTS is a very nifty strain gauge that uses a hall sensor to read the amount of torque running through your drive chain. Grin is working to integrate this strain gauge into the function of the CA3 along with a cadence sensor. The end result should be a full torque sensing system that works at least as well as the torque sensing bottom brackets and does it at a lower cost. Your stock bottom bracket remains unmolested. Since the torque sensing bottom brackets are 68mm only and also 128mm axles only, they were pretty limiting and excluded a lot of bikes. This new system should make full torque sensing available to a much wider range of bikes.

In the case of my Luna Cycle mid drives and Big Dummy/cargo bike drives, there is a human power only chain run from the BB to the lower jackshaft. This is a perfect place to take a chain stress reading and should create a clean signal to give nice throttle control. All of the normal CA3 functions such as throttle ramping and power limits can also be applied.

Here is the BeamTS with it's own filter box (redundant and unnecessary with a CA3) installed on my Big Dummy kit on Dean's bike.

 

[Marin]

Mike you've really made my day with this update, the way the motors are coming and the torque sensing possibilities. I can see my Luna project is going to be something special. Todd

 

[scorpionice]

Here is a photo of how my mid drives are currently shipping. The entire drive is assembled, the pulleys, belt and guard are installed, the 219 driver, chain, guard and tensioner are installed, and the 219 chain run is pre-aligned. I remove the bottom bracket and chainwheel for shipping because those components have to be removed to install the drive anyway.

I wish I could have those upgraded parts so I can get back to riding again...look so rad...cheers

 

[LightningRods]

Mike you've really made my day with this update, the way the motors are coming and the torque sensing possibilities. I can see my Luna project is going to be something special. Todd

Eric at Luna Cycle really did it right when he designed the Luna frame. If possible the motor should always be after the bottom bracket. There is no advantage to running the motor power through the BB and there are a lot of disadvantages. It's just a necessity on most bikes because of available space.

Right now Eric and I are talking about trying out a Nexus 3 three speed IGH to see if we can provide a $100 transmission solution. With it's standard 19T sprocket it provides overall ratios of 14:1, 19:1 and 25:1. A lot easier on the driveline than just running a 16T fixed and obviously allows for a lot more top speed. It will almost certainly work with his Bafang version of the Luna but it's hard to say if the Nexus 3 will handle my big block motor without puking. I feel like I need to try it before going to the Rohloff. $1200 for a hub transmission is going to stop a lot of buyers.

Leif, I'm looking forward to providing upgrade parts to existing customers. Improvements will be constant. One of the advantages of being a small builder is that I can turn on a dime and implement new designs and revisions constantly. Big companies have model years. I have model months.

 

[stonezone]

I wish I'd known that final assembly was such a big deal for people. I actually enjoy doing the assembly and fine tuning. The reason that I didn't do it in the past was not because of the time it takes, but because the drive is a lot easier to damage during shipping when it's assembled. I now pad the hell out of them and double box them so the freight monkeys won't destroy them.

The drives for the Luna Cycle and cargo bikes like the Big Dummy that don't involve the bottom bracket in the kit will come even more assembled. I'll let the new owner take it partially back apart to put it on their bike.

I will also ship kits with the controller, throttle and even the CA3 connected. I want people to have a good experience and get out and have some fun. I love tinkering with mechanical things so it's hard for me to understand how much some folks hate it. Let me know what you need help with and I'll do the best I can to be accommodating.

The pains of my assembly was a ton of fun, but I like that type of thing... and I even had mine before you made those youtube videos.

 

[r3volved]

Ya same deal. I'm a tinkerer and enjoyed it

 

[LightningRods]

I'm a tinkerer and so are most of my close friends. I get really excited when I see people doing creative things with my mid drives. But I don't want people who just want to bolt a kit onto their bike and go riding to feel like they have to settle for a Bafang. I'll make it as easy for people as I possibly can.

Volvo conducted a study recently on the new features that women motorists would most like to see implemented on new of car models. One 'feature' that was asked for most frequently was an engine compartment that was sealed shut, with no user serviceable parts inside. I was floored. I can't think of anything more horrible. I don't really fully trust vehicles that I didn't build myself. I love knowing how things work, what's apt to go wrong, where all of the bits are. To me that's what makes the bike or car mine.

 

[sparkz]

Preaching to the choir, LR. I think everyone on this thread likes to tinker. Our first desire on seeing something new is wanting to take it apart.

 

[TriPhase]

Guilty...

 

[LightningRods]

Andrew in the UK sent me this photo of his L-R big block equipped Quest velomobile loaded onto his BMW i3. The i3 may be more comfortable for long trips, but I have to wonder if the Quest with my big block kit isn't faster.

 

[Archer]

Mike,

Did Andrew get the LR installed and running? I want to follow this one.

Thanks Tim.

 

[KONAKID]

Michael' Im verry frustrated here. i know you think its something i did wrong - but so far everything you asked me to check - checks out fine! and still no go...
im starting to think it must be the controler limiting the motor.. sent mail to lyen several days ago but still no answer - can you let him know i need his help please?
thanks
Tim

 

[eMTBHunter]

Volvo conducted a study recently on the new features that women motorists would most like to see implemented on new of car models. One 'feature' that was asked for most frequently was an engine compartment that was sealed shut, with no user serviceable parts inside. I was floored. I can't think of anything more horrible. I don't really fully trust vehicles that I didn't build myself. I love knowing how things work, what's apt to go wrong, where all of the bits are. To me that's what makes the bike or car mine.

Those study results make perfect sense if you assume those women know men like us. My wife knows that if I can tinker with something I will, and if I tinker there are reasonable odds of it turning into a money pit. She recently encouraged me to lease a new truck just so I wouldn't mess with it. I bought a 2005 F150 with issues instead and had it torn down the heads the next weekend.

 

[LightningRods]

.. sent mail to lyen several days ago but still no answer - can you let him know i need his help please?

PM sent to Konakid.

 

[LightningRods]

Those study results make perfect sense if you assume those women know men like us. My wife knows that if I can tinker with something I will, and if I tinker there are reasonable odds of it turning into a money pit. She recently encouraged me to lease a new truck just so I wouldn't mess with it. I bought a 2005 F150 with issues instead and had it torn down the heads the next weekend.

I've saved my family a small fortune on cars and car repairs. I drove the same Mustang convertible for 16 years and sold it for a profit, even allowing for inflation and all of my parts and materials. I suppose that there are men that don't know what they're doing and make a mess of things. Somehow I don't know any personally. The men I know work hard, know what they're doing and do good work. We're not all Tim Taylor.

Have the heads back on that F150 yet?

 

[eMTBHunter]

Same deal here. It's amazing how much any variety of service providers will charge unknowledgeable customers for tasks well within the reach of the average DIYer.

F150 is back together and running perfectly. Sent you an email earlier this evening following up on a small block kit inquiry. Getting excited about my future hunting bike project. Hauled a doe out this weekend under my own power and thought about this kit the entire way out.

 

[Archer]

Mike you've really made my day with this update, the way the motors are coming and the torque sensing possibilities. I can see my Luna project is going to be something special. Todd

Hi Marin,

Hey would you be able to make some decent videos of your Luna when its all finished and to your liking?

There isnt enough videos out there of the different applications for LR's kit.

Thanks Mon.

Tim.

 

[nubrian]

Is it possible to buy a tensioner that's compatible with the stretch kit?

 

[LightningRods]

Yes. If anything the stretch needs the tensioner more than the regular mid drive. I haven't had a stretch come through the build queue since I've been installing tensioners. I think it will just be a matter of moving the mounting point on the upper sheets.

Once I get through the last of the summer orders (1 to 2 weeks of cleaning up) I'll be glad to offer retrofit tensioners.