LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

It's really true. One of the aspects of this field that I love is that there is so much that's new. There is a lot to learn and a lot left to create.

It does get frustrating at times though. Mistakes are part of learning but they cost time and money.

 

[John Bozi]

With my limited time on road with this I can only for now see more than one speed possible for less power than this motor was designed for.

With my 9 speed that I trialed there are 3 aspects I can identify for now. The first is the chain line and then the other two tooth count and closely related tensioner which would maximise tooth count.

Even though the granny sprocket has more teeth the derailleur / tensioner seems to lack the ability to get much chain wrap. Hence more teeth is not really more teeth engaged...

I am not sure if a modified MC tensioner is possible with the DH amount of travel and small (20t max) off the shelf sprockets I can find.

It worked relatively well on all mountain frame with 48t at back.

I will convert to single speed today and see how it holds up with the bicycle single speed tensioner... I predict the lack of chain wrap will be the main problem to overcome.... easy on a hartail, hard on extreme travel rear ends.

anyway, sun is coming up, coffee has been drunk... man shed calling.

 

[LightningRods]

Both of the motors that I use have plenty of torque for single speed. The real issue is driveline strain. If you want to have a top speed over 30 km/hr the strain on the driveline starting out is pretty intense. It's really hard on bicycle components.

Even if there were no more teeth engaged, with a larger sprocket you have a longer lever to turn the wheel with. The same number of teeth would be less likely to skip.

Anyway, you're having fun. I'll leave you to it.

 

[John Bozi]

grubber fell off the shaft bounced into the secondary chain and went half a turn jammed in the 219 sprocket chain which then warped the bar at the top where the tensioning nuts are.... I pulled off chainwheel reinstalled. the grubber screw has very little engagement to hold onto something. Not sure how bad the bend will be for being able to tension this but the bike has not even had 2 ah on road through it.

I hadn't fiddled with any parts of the brackets but now thinking I need to check them all and this grubber will need some thing to catch it from doing this again. I hope no rocks flying up will do something similar.





After getting it running again I went for another test ride

I think I'm up to 5 aspects, chain line, tooth count, chain wrap,

3. splines to body

4. pawls

I went 20t single speed which was looking promising until I took it to my steeper off road testing area. Every metre I get a loud slip of some sort. I can't work out what the loud clack is, if the chain were skipping I imagine it might fall off or it would be like it was stuck in the tensioner, but every time I look down there's nothing.

Is it possible for the interface to body or the pawls to make such a loud clack if they continue to function?

 

[LightningRods]

The loud clack was some part of the chain drive jumping because it's overloaded.

Is the "grubber" one of the two grub screws in the 219 driver?

 

[r3volved]

I've had a similar clack on steep incline and I was under the impression it may have been the belt skipping, but that can't account for yours. May have to rethink my clack. One of the free wheels seeing too much torque perhaps? I don't know enough to know if they would slip or fail completely if over torqued.

 

[John Bozi]

The loud clack was some part of the chain drive jumping because it's overloaded.

Is the "grubber" one of the two grub screws in the 219 driver?

The sound is coming from behind me which I am pretty sure is the hub body or chain on the sprocket at the rear wheel.

Yes sorry for my Aussie slang or limited vocab in this area. After removing the grub screw from the chain sprocket jam I put it back where it came from. I will melt a bit of polymorph plastic over the two and run a ring of plastic around so they can be rescrewed in but if loosen don't go flying... kind of lucky it did get jammed because I wouldn't have found it on the road being so small nor knew it was gone till something maybe worse happened.

I am hoping the thread is not damaged too. The chain and sprocket look undamaged and stronger than the bar the tensioning nuts go onto that has warped downwards from the extra tension. Now I am wondering if this side should be rater loose...?

EDIT I should add that yes I am using a lot of power through this. I have hit just under 5kw a few times on it. Which I believe is a comfortable burst for all the components in the kit, my controller and batteries. That's why its a test ride. I was hoping I can climb the mountain at the back of my house at 3kw continuous twice to 3 times the speed my bafang could do at 1-1.5kw.

EDIT 2

Video is a thousand words.

[youtube]Git1_-ppQTQ[/youtube]

 

[Archer]

I really enjoy reading this thread even though its well above my level.

Just curious about a couple of things,

1.It seems like some bike brands/frames take to the LR kit much better and easier than others.True or False?

2.Would a gear sensor like the one Lectric Cycle uses with their e-Rad mid drives work for the LR set up? I'm talking about where the motor is cut off for a short period while one shifts gears.It seems to be proven that the gear sensors do in fact reduce wear and mashing of the bicycle gear parts.

I know gearsensor.com also makes their sensors for a variety of e-bike brands.

What say you?

Thanks,Tim.

 

[LightningRods]

Hi Tim,

The most important aspect of the bike is the bottom bracket. It's best to find a bike with a conventional threaded bottom bracket rather than one of the press fits. The press fits are unfortunately becoming more common, especially on the downhill bikes that make the best off road ebikes. The other consideration is the front downtube of the frame. It's better if it's straight rather than having a curving 'dog leg' at the bottom. Again, unfortunately the curving front frame tubes are all the fashion right now, especially for full suspension bikes. I do make an extended bracket for the curving frames. The press fit bottom bracket is a more serious issue.

The shift cutoffs are most important on bikes that have torque sensing or PAS cadence sensing. On bikes controlled by a hand throttle you simply roll back the throttle when you shift, just as you would with a gas motorcycle. I am going to be working with Grin Technologies to offer a couple of varieties of torque sensing so this would probably be worth looking into.

Mike

 

[broke]

Hay Mike check out what I just got in the mail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXMJjDdiAw&feature=youtu.be

 

[Mammalian04]

What the heck happened to that thing?!? Looks like some of the damage happened before shipping. Maybe the seller can shed some light on its history.

Looks like it needs to go to Mike to be completely revamped with what can be salvaged.

 

[r3volved]

You bought from nubrain.com? I thought they're closed (dark web?). Looks like you bought it from emayaan

 

[broke]

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=73317&p=1120328#p1120328. Fuuuuuuuuuuk

 

[LightningRods]

How did you pay this person? If you paid with a credit card, dispute the charge with your CC company based on poor packing resulting in serious damage, missing parts, and undisclosed previous wear/damage. If you paid through PayPal, file a dispute through them.
I'm so sorry that you had this horrible experience with someone reselling my product. Get your finances straightened out with nubrian and then I'll take care of you personally.

 

[broke]

I asked him to pack it very good but dam pile of junk it's 11 am I took the day off work now I'm just drinking a 12 pack listing to pantera

 

[Mammalian04]

Sometimes the day calls for young angry man music.

 

[spinningmagnets]

This kind of crap pissed me off. Parts dumped into a box without proper support. Bounced around and dented into being useless. As bad as that was, it looks like the 219 chain was not adjusted properly, and it chewed the drive sprocket all to hell. Buyer was told it had about 100 miles on it, but the 219 drive pulley is worn completely down.

ES member nubrian, what's your side of the story?

 

[broke]

I payed with PayPal. Nubrian texted back and told me to contact usps about insurance. I didn't send it how can I ask for insurance. Then he asked if I paid by cc If I did i could get money back. How is this my problem I called Paypal and have a claim. Wish me luck guys. Ps nubrian does regret this happend so i hope I get my money back

 

[LightningRods]

I've had customers file the insurance claim after I paid for the shipping and insurance. If you give the USPS the tracking number they will process a claim for either shipper or recipient. This is only going to work if nubrian paid extra for insurance. All you get automatically with USPS is $50 worth. The contact number for insurance claims is on the USPS web site.

When I ship mid drives I heavily bubble wrap the drive and loose parts and then float them in styro peanuts. I then float that 12"x12"x12" box inside of a 14"x14"x14" box with more styro in between. I spend over $10 on packing supplies on each drive.

This mid drive is so badly damaged and abused that you are either going to have to scrap it or send it back to me to be rebuilt.

 

[stonezone]

One of the great aspects about the time that we live in is the availability of technology to make things. I needed a #219 sprocket that didn't exist. 219 driver sprockets range from 11T to 18T. 219 driven sprockets range from 64T to 93T. To get my reduction where I want it on my mid bike drives I need a 40T 219 driven. I'd also like the center to fit a five bolt freewheel. Doesn't exist.

Here is my new 40T sprocket in the gap of what was previously available:

It's laser cut from .135" stainless steel, fits the freewheel down to .001" and the finish on the teeth is better than it needs to be. This is going to be a great part:

But as always seems to be the case with me, the first pass had to have a problem. I've designed pulleys in the past and have gotten used to that. This is my first sprocket. When I looked up the sprocket diameter for a 40T 219 sprocket I assumed that "sprocket diameter" meant the outside of the sprocket. No. It means the diameter of the center line of the chain. The 219 chain doesn't fit this pretty part. So I carefully measured the roller diameter and pin to pin distance of a 219 chain and went back to my sprocket drawing.

Luckily the tooth profile was correct so all I had to do was plot the chain roller diameters and pin spacing on the correct diameter. I resized the 40T tooth profile and everything fits like a glove.

So back to the laser cutter on Monday. I know that sometimes it's difficult to understand why projects take as long as they do. If I knew everything going into them they would go a lot faster.

I plan to use the lessons learned from making this secondary reduction sprocket to make freehub final drive sprockets. My plan is to design and laser cut cogs from 16T to at least 34T and then fit them on a steel freehub with spacers to create six speed spacing. Six speeds is more than we need but the derailleur will shift better with more steps from 16T to 34T and with any luck at all it will be possible to use a six speed indexed shifter instead of a friction shifter. We shall see.

You are killing it Mike!

Please put me in for a 16t 3/16" 'slides-over-my-dtswiss-freehub" rear sprocket please (and while you're at it, iow about a 104bcd 3/16" 44t front). If you can cut them out of unobtanium, that would be optimal Oh yeah, and I'll need them both before the Dec13th Enduro that there will be another eBike class in (I just ordered a chainring nut tool in preparation).

thanks in advance!

Z

 

[stonezone]

With my limited time on road with this I can only for now see more than one speed possible for less power than this motor was designed for.

With my 9 speed that I trialed there are 3 aspects I can identify for now. The first is the chain line and then the other two tooth count and closely related tensioner which would maximise tooth count.

Even though the granny sprocket has more teeth the derailleur / tensioner seems to lack the ability to get much chain wrap. Hence more teeth is not really more teeth engaged...

I am not sure if a modified MC tensioner is possible with the DH amount of travel and small (20t max) off the shelf sprockets I can find.

It worked relatively well on all mountain frame with 48t at back.

I will convert to single speed today and see how it holds up with the bicycle single speed tensioner... I predict the lack of chain wrap will be the main problem to overcome.... easy on a hartail, hard on extreme travel rear ends.

anyway, sun is coming up, coffee has been drunk... man shed calling.

I'm not sure about your frame, but with my Giant Glory the chain growth is too much for a single speed tensioner (or upward pulling motorcycle tensioner type) to compensate for. The double pivot of bicycle derailleurs does allow for enough slack though. My chain is super heavy (kmc 3/16) so i had to add another tensioner to my chainstay to keep it from bouncing off on harder landings. The only thing I would consider doing (although I dont think I need to) is to add an external spring to make it even stiffer. The other thing that the bicycle tensioner does that's critical (and is adjustable) is to hold the chain to the cog, giving you max engagement.

it's all a bit hacked together, but is working better than anything i've tried in the past (and i've gone through a bunch of final drive modification). I still have some tweaking to do but i'm riding a bunch and finally not having any slippage. I have to say, I'm still mentally incapable of giving it much more than half throttle on some really steep/rooty sections. I just cant get over the feeling that something will break there's so much power (and so mcuh weight it's pulling). so much power....

Z

 

[John Bozi]

When I ship mid drives I heavily bubble wrap the drive and loose parts and then float them in styro peanuts. I then float that 12"x12"x12" box inside of a 14"x14"x14" box with more styro in between. I spend over $10 on packing supplies on each drive.

[youtube]mLAhjK4Vnxk[/youtube]

[youtube]RFYT0eoMsVQ[/youtube]

I'd probably add something directly onto the extremities too. there was no damage on my kit happy to say.

Is there a manual or could you mention how much slack to leave in the primary and secondary chains?

I still haven't pushed this bike to its limits, but I have done enough riding to know that the motor is absolutely amazing. I hit 32 degrees celcius on my testing trails that I know very well to push my hub motor over 90 degrees celcius. The 18 fet controller was getting quite hot.... The handling of the bike weight is priceless.

To me it sounds awesome but very loud and people can here coming from far away, but on video it sounds like nothing when not opening up the throttle too much.

I do love it Mike. Can't wait for next weekend to get the torque brace on and then hammer the mountains properly.

This is just fooling around.

[youtube]Ay-ahZfGLUg[/youtube]

 

[LightningRods]

I had some damage on the first kits that I shipped until I realized how hard packages get slammed around. I kept adding padding and more packing material until I finally decided to pay for an oversize package and put the 12"x box inside of a 14"x. Knock on wood I haven't had any damaged kits since. Two stolen, but none damaged.

The remarkable thing about these motors is the way that they shed heat. Ask anyone who has hot rodded electric motors what their main problem is, and they'll tell you- heat buildup. A motor that runs cool is a motor that can make more power. I'm really excited to learn how much power the big block can put out. The 3000 watt rating I give it is very conservative. I'm sure that it's over 5000 watts. The small motor has been run at 4000.

219 chain (or any chain) primary is not for users wanting to be stealthy. It's good for 25 horsepower, but it does make chain noise. My Swiss friends run the small blocks very hard through a 25 tooth driver pulley and have a quiet, reliable primary drive.

The chain tension should be firm without being rock hard. You want just a bit of wiggle but no slop. If the chain is able to start whipping around on the return side you'll have skipping and derailments. Too tight and the drive will be even noisier and it will wear prematurely.

I'm glad that you're happy overall John. It's hugely rewarding to create something like this, but when you care about your work you're putting a part of yourself out in the world for people to make commentary on. It's not always easy.

 

[Marin]

I love watching this thread, always informative and interesting and the lineup keeps getting shorter as kits go to they're new home, lol.

The recent comments about chain noise has got me thinking that I'd like my Luna build to be as quiet as possible, can I have a belt instead of the 219 chain? is that an option or good idea at all. I do want to climb some hills but it's not a trail/mountain build I'm doing with a luna frame. Also I have an IGH rear wheel coming, a Nuvinci 171b in a 26" wheel, I'm going to take it easy so I don't blow that up right away also.

Mike are you able to get out on the Luna test bike? I'm like 500 miles north of you and it's raining pretty hard here lately no real riding for me.

Awesome job on the sprockets, that tech is almost as fun as ebikes.

 

[LightningRods]

All of the Luna drives will have a Gates GT2 Powergrip belt primary. Because my mid bike drives only need the motor to be reduced in rpm 8x as compared to a bottom bracket mid drive which needs around 30x motor reduction I'm able to use a big 25 tooth GT driver pulley. This engages more teeth in the belt for higher power capacity, longer life and quieter operation. My mid bike drives have a 219 chain secondary, but it's running at 1/5 the speed of the primary. The primary drive is where the high pitched 'Formula One' sound comes from.

Right now I'm trying to get the laser cutting company to cut one 40T sprocket, let me test fit it to the 219 chain, and then if it checks out go ahead and make enough sprockets for all of my current orders. I haven't ridden the Luna since I had the new solid core 4140 chrome moly jackshaft and double keyway width freewheel hub made. I don't want to risk blowing up $250 worth of prototype parts because I'm still running 50% too much reduction. I'll get the bike out for testing as soon as I have the sprocket and there's a pause in the rain.

The queue does keep getting shorter. Right now we're shipping orders plus or minus 60 days. By month's end we'll be caught up to 30 days.

Sitting in the shop I have a Utah Trikes fat tire trike, an Extracycle cargo bike, a Sondors, a Qulbix Raptor 140 and of course the Luna Cycle. I'm also finishing up a new 10 lb, planetary reduction, 3000 watt mid drive. It will sell complete with controller and throttle for less than my current small block kit. No it's not Bafang based. 3000 watts.