Marin
1 kW
Always interesting, thanks Mike
LightningRods mid drive kit
- Thread starter spinningmagnets
- Start date
Their is a few new 3000w planetary mid drive kits coming out now :
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&hilit=cyclone+3000w+mid+drive&start=25
Would it be similar design to this one do you have any pics ? :
" AFT High Power 48v 1800w-3000w kit...
Latest Gen II kit features low noise plastic gearing and a lightweight, high torque motor.
Picture
AFT provides improvements over the standard kit, such as:
Stronger mounting Brackets
Stronger Gears from Engineered Plastic
Ceramic Bearings and Oil Bath Lubrication
Optional Sinewave Controller "
LightningRods
1 MW
The new Cyclone 1800-3000W is the big news for planetary drive mid drives. Paco contacted me several months ago when it first became available. I ordered a complete kit to check it out. The motor looks great, the stock controller is good for 72V 40A, the stock mounting brackets are terrible. The upper mount is literally a big hose clamp that goes around the motor and then a zip tie to go around the frame. I didn't even want to run it with the stock brackets. So I designed these:
I used .190" and .125" aluminum to keep the weight as low as possible. Weight without the bottom bracket is about 10.5 lbs. I added an additional outer bracket on the left side to make sure that the motor doesn't twist under load. The finished brackets will be black anodized. By using different length standoffs and spacers this design will fit 68mm, 73mm, 83mm and 100mm bottom brackets.
Now that the kit is usable I'm going to put it on a Specialized hard tail and run it around to evaluate power and noise. Paco says that this motor is quiet, runs cool, is waterproof and that the gears hold up well. If I do sell these I'll stock lots of gear sets.
I used .190" and .125" aluminum to keep the weight as low as possible. Weight without the bottom bracket is about 10.5 lbs. I added an additional outer bracket on the left side to make sure that the motor doesn't twist under load. The finished brackets will be black anodized. By using different length standoffs and spacers this design will fit 68mm, 73mm, 83mm and 100mm bottom brackets.
Now that the kit is usable I'm going to put it on a Specialized hard tail and run it around to evaluate power and noise. Paco says that this motor is quiet, runs cool, is waterproof and that the gears hold up well. If I do sell these I'll stock lots of gear sets.
Dogboy1200
100 W
Love it! That looks sweet!
LightningRods
1 MW
Thanks! I really hope that this motor checks out as Paco promised.
John Bozi
100 kW
LightningRods said:
What are your thoughts on this concept? Issues might be you can't see the tension / lack of. Adding Lube. Extra clearance.
LightningRods
1 MW
I thought about completely enclosing the belt drive a long time ago. According to the Gates service manual the belt builds up heat and should not be completely enclosed. It would be a good idea to at least have some ventilation opening on the side.
For chain drive it should work fine. A plastic or ABS enclosure should absorb some of the high frequency hiss coming off of the chain and quiet things down some. When I was thinking about doing this I was going to cast the perimeter in urethane and have the cover laser cut from sheet ABS.
If you look at the back side of the drive there are so many dimensional levels and so little clearance that it would be really difficult to completely enclose the back side of the primary drive.
I'm not crazy about how full covers look but they are practical for a lot of applications.
For chain drive it should work fine. A plastic or ABS enclosure should absorb some of the high frequency hiss coming off of the chain and quiet things down some. When I was thinking about doing this I was going to cast the perimeter in urethane and have the cover laser cut from sheet ABS.
If you look at the back side of the drive there are so many dimensional levels and so little clearance that it would be really difficult to completely enclose the back side of the primary drive.
I'm not crazy about how full covers look but they are practical for a lot of applications.
Mammalian04
100 kW
LightningRods said:
Hi Mike, I like that you're expanding your variety. You are going to need to take a week to design a cloning machine and then the both of you can get back to designing!
I have 3 questions for you when you get a chance:
1) I am sure you have some goals in mind with Paco's planetary system. When ready, what do you anticipate the advantages/disadvantages to be vs. your current small/big block kits? Better Noise Level, Maintenance, Installation, etc?
2) On a separate note, what is the smallest width mid-drive option? I have a Qulbix Q76 (76mm wide frame) that will ship in January. Weight doesn't matter but I'd like to keep the width as skinny as possible. If there is a mid-drive option that would keep it skinny, I'd like to try one as I don't have a full suspension mid-drive bike. I can drop ship it to you for prototyping if there is a good option.
3) When do you expect the Qulbix Q140 kit to be ready? If the Qulbix Q76 doesn't work out to be a good mid-drive candidate, I'll move my Q140 gear over to the Q76 and install a mid-drive on the Q140.
The more I ride with the big hub motors, the more apparent that 20lb. motor is out back.
Dogboy1200
100 W
I really like the cover. For me stealth is paramount. I think the cover makes the drive much less obvious. The planetary system with the chain and cover inboard of the of the crank sprocket would be about as inobvious as a BBS02.
Streamway
10 µW
Mike,
I use your sheets on the planetary GNG which work fine but it looks like the Paco planetary would be more to my liking so count me in when if and when you market. This for my Catrike tadpole trike. I feel your belt reduction small block will be too tall if not too heavy. Weight is always a consideration on a tadpole to keep from doing a sudden stop nose over. The planetary will be plenty strong enough for street riding. Looking forward to see this being marketed.
I use your sheets on the planetary GNG which work fine but it looks like the Paco planetary would be more to my liking so count me in when if and when you market. This for my Catrike tadpole trike. I feel your belt reduction small block will be too tall if not too heavy. Weight is always a consideration on a tadpole to keep from doing a sudden stop nose over. The planetary will be plenty strong enough for street riding. Looking forward to see this being marketed.
sparkz
10 W
LR -
Would the planetary be sufficient for mountain biking? Not too extreme, but lots of long pulls. I'm guessing not, because the reduction seems a bit light. I have a friend who wants to get back into mountain biking with his wife, and this kit might be appropriate for them.
Would the planetary be sufficient for mountain biking? Not too extreme, but lots of long pulls. I'm guessing not, because the reduction seems a bit light. I have a friend who wants to get back into mountain biking with his wife, and this kit might be appropriate for them.
LightningRods
1 MW
Mammalian04 said:
I'm torn between working on my cloning machine and my time travel machine. I suppose that the clones could help with the time machine so that may be the answer.
1) I don't KNOW much about Paco's planetary drive yet but what I anticipate is similar noise level, less constant short term maintenance (tensioning), but more hassle/expense to change worn out gears as compared to a belt. I doubt that the nylon gears will be ruinously expensive. It's mostly a hassle. Power should be similar to the small block. Paco claims that it runs cool. To be determined. Install is not much different. Pulling the bottom bracket is the major job on both. Weight of the new Cyclone with my aluminum brackets is about 10.5 lbs compared to the small block with steel brackets at 14.5 lbs. The big block is about 18.5 lbs. The Cyclone is wide. Because of the planetary gears it's as wide as the big block.
2) The small block is the narrowest option that I have. It's normal case width is 78mm. I'm going to buy a vertical mill with a rotary table to be able to mill the center case down for a 68mm overall width. I'm working with Grin Technologies on two different torque sensing systems. One of them is a 136mm axle width bottom bracket that will need a slightly narrower case than my current small block case.
3) I could produce a Qulbix 140 kit right now. I have all of the parts. It's a big block only kit with a 83mm/148mm bottom bracket.
LightningRods
1 MW
I'm getting ready to have a bunch of them made. 100 of the drives are due in the US the first week of December. I can have that many brackets ready by then. You don't want the stock stuff.
LightningRods
1 MW
I haven't had any road/trail time with this new drive because I'm hammered with other work. I think that my new brackets are super solid, the motor looks like a beefy mofo, what I don't know about is the nylon gear planetary system. Steel planetaries howl like a dentist's drill, so unless you like riding around with a siren on your bike the nylon/plastic gears are the only choice.
I don't know how this will stack up to my existing small block. It will cost less and be easier for most users to deal with. Pretty much the same qualities that made the Bafag popular. Take a Bafang HD and double it's motor. That's pretty much the new Cyclone.
I don't know how this will stack up to my existing small block. It will cost less and be easier for most users to deal with. Pretty much the same qualities that made the Bafag popular. Take a Bafang HD and double it's motor. That's pretty much the new Cyclone.
John Bozi
100 kW
LightningRods said:
I agree Bafag as a stand alone solution as in adequate for anything other than on road or flat single track. Not sure if you got that abbreviation from me?
[youtube]XK6tTT-qyDc[/youtube]
However as a part of a dual motor approach it actually can outshine even the big block in the wrong gearing.
The beauty of low power and perfect gearing is that you can maintain fluid control through complex and extremely steep inclines.
I am still in teething stage to find my do it all single speed gearing with the big block. The big block is excellent at moderate or less complex trail where you can run up and blast through, but at extreme overloading from hill start the drive train either skips or skids with bicycle components. In time with some customisation I do believe it will out shine my previous double motor approach though.
John Bozi
100 kW
So we don't derail Mike's thread let's go to PM if stuff is just about bafang... my reply was directly comparing the perceived weakness of the bafa*g expressed, suggesting that it does actually have its merits compared to the LR...broke said:I heard some guys had some bb bending problems off road with the bbso2 did you? Can't do the small wheel
The LR BBlock has its "weakness" in its extremely powerful motor or "strength" so a bit of play with words here sorry.
If comparing materials used to keep a kit spinning, in a nutshell, no bending in my bafang as I don't do extreme jumps, but I have bent the bar that holds the nuts for tensioning the chains on the LR in under 20 minutes of riding after a grub screw loosened up and fell into my secondary chain.
[youtube]-5S9LAJRAMU[/youtube]
John Bozi
100 kW
Dogboy1200 said:
I have to say thank you to Dogboy and spinningmagnets, this info was priceless again.
I wish I knew this before the heads got mangled. It took a lot of heat and quick action as it would re-seize. I used the nut wrench just to get it slightly turned so that there would be enough space to grip with some pliers.
The bolts have been saved, but the nuts have had their day...
DingusMcGee
100 kW
Hi Mike [of backusstudio.com],
Could you help me?
Could you help me?
FluxShifter
10 mW
@ Dingus
Your gonna have to wait in line bro. Like Mike said before he is only one man. This kit is definitely worth the wait. Give him some more time and be patient. Mike is a stand up guy and will take care of you to the best of his ability. No need for a paypal dispute.
Your gonna have to wait in line bro. Like Mike said before he is only one man. This kit is definitely worth the wait. Give him some more time and be patient. Mike is a stand up guy and will take care of you to the best of his ability. No need for a paypal dispute.
LightningRods
1 MW
Well 'Dingus', it took me a while to find your order because your name is actually Dennis Horning. I'm sorry that I missed responding to that one email.
I never have and never will engage in a 'bait and switch'. A bait and switch is a scam where you promise one product in an ad to lure customers in and then when they arrive at your store you are currently "out of that item" but conveniently have a more expensive item available for immediate sale. A Toyota dealer tried that on me once. It didn't work.
Other than your name and the nature of your complaint the rest of your post is fairly accurate. Yes I fell behind schedule on custom made items. I am beginning to learn why 90% of the people in the ebike business just want to resell boxes of product from China and take a quick profit. Making things is hard. There are a million things trying to knock you off schedule.
Your order is nearly complete. I have some questions about things like whether your 100mm BB bike is a fat bike. If it is you need a different bottom bracket and the 93T 219 driven sprocket you wanted will almost certainly not fit. But we can take care of that in email because none of this is very interesting for readers.
P.S. Thanks FluxShifter.
I never have and never will engage in a 'bait and switch'. A bait and switch is a scam where you promise one product in an ad to lure customers in and then when they arrive at your store you are currently "out of that item" but conveniently have a more expensive item available for immediate sale. A Toyota dealer tried that on me once. It didn't work.
Other than your name and the nature of your complaint the rest of your post is fairly accurate. Yes I fell behind schedule on custom made items. I am beginning to learn why 90% of the people in the ebike business just want to resell boxes of product from China and take a quick profit. Making things is hard. There are a million things trying to knock you off schedule.
Your order is nearly complete. I have some questions about things like whether your 100mm BB bike is a fat bike. If it is you need a different bottom bracket and the 93T 219 driven sprocket you wanted will almost certainly not fit. But we can take care of that in email because none of this is very interesting for readers.
P.S. Thanks FluxShifter.
r3volved
100 kW
Mike or whomever may know - is the freewheel in the belt pully the same as the crankset? Are they standard size or something specific? I'm looking to replace (upgrade) both...
LightningRods
1 MW
Yes they are identical. The only available upgrade is the $80 White Industries. Freewheels and one way bearings are an area that really needs more product available. The ACS freewheels that I use are the best of the affordable freewheels.
r3volved
100 kW
Thanks
So far they've withstood my stress testing at around ~1000km @5kw and my now 3kw limits for another 4000km. I've experienced the wobbly free wheels but they've never been an issue. They're starting to wear on me now pretty quick with the winter cold rolling in.
The kit has just over 5000km now in total with one jack shaft axle replacement and some (IMO) minor mods. It's time though for a bunch of all around bike maintenance so I might as well go all-out while I can afford it *grin*
Are you selling the secondary side chain tensioner as an upgrade accessory?
So far they've withstood my stress testing at around ~1000km @5kw and my now 3kw limits for another 4000km. I've experienced the wobbly free wheels but they've never been an issue. They're starting to wear on me now pretty quick with the winter cold rolling in.
The kit has just over 5000km now in total with one jack shaft axle replacement and some (IMO) minor mods. It's time though for a bunch of all around bike maintenance so I might as well go all-out while I can afford it *grin*
Are you selling the secondary side chain tensioner as an upgrade accessory?
