LightningRods mid drive kit

[spinningmagnets]

I suspect it will climb exceptionally well, due to the 20-inch wheel playing a part in the gearing. My full-diameter tire ebike climbs really well at 1500W, since the mid drive motor can use the bikes gears. This drive system can also shed heat much better than my set-up, so it won't have to downshift as deeply on a longer uphill, compared to mine.

 

[LightningRods]

This is for a mom in Texas to haul her young child around. She's not a crazed speed freak like SOME people I know.

I have the power rolled back to 1000 watts for PAS mode. I think she'll be happy with that amount of power.

Believe it or not I have an older customer here in town who is bringing his small block kit in so that I can fit it with a 3 way switch to roll the power back to 20A and 750W.

 

[Marin]

Believe it or not I have an older customer here in town who is bringing his small block kit in so that I can fit it with a 3 way switch to roll the power back to 20A and 750W.

Sounds like a sensible client,

 

[LightningRods]

I take 'em as they come.

 

[ElectricGod]

Believe it or not I have an older customer here in town who is bringing his small block kit in so that I can fit it with a 3 way switch to roll the power back to 20A and 750W.

Sounds like a sensible client,

LOL!

MORE POWER!!!!

 

[izeman]

i also think that 2000w is more than appropriate for a city cruiser. 2000w will bring you up to 50km/h easily and will climb any hilly street. it will be really realiable and have a decent range. if you max out power it will be at drive train's cost. your bike will eat tires and chains/sprockets much much quicker.
from a seller's point LESS power is more desirable as it will create happy users with a durable bike = high quality.

 

[LightningRods]

from a seller's point LESS power is more desirable as it will create happy users with a durable bike = high quality.

I agree. I intentionally underrate my motors. The "1500 watt" Small Block is good for twice that power level, the "3000 watt" Big Block is good for at least 5kW. The users who run these power levels are typically more experienced and expect to break things when pushing the limits.

The Cyclone "3000 watt" motor is about the same size as my Small Block. It looks larger than it is because of it's planetary reduction box.

 

[r3volved]

The small block at 5kW was amazing for a weekend warrior, but its suicide for a commuter. At 3kW it's still over-powered for a "reliable commuter" - makes it a fun AF commute though and also really helps pull cargo (kid/trailer/etc).

1.5-2kW on the small block is a really good power-point for the average commuter to maintain reliability.

I always recommend a 3-position switch and a CA to provide all three modes to suit your needs.

 

[John Bozi]

I suspect it will climb exceptionally well, due to the 20-inch wheel playing a part in the gearing.

The old argument would go: larger wheels are better for anything with bumps, however, I for one would love to see even a big block run through 20" wheel. On road would be magic and off road (so many people's off road definition is so similar to on road too) which can include even steeper sections could be even better.

Yes we have gears and we don't need to do what hub motors need to do to gear down or save themselves from heat issues. Furthermore, larger hubs often need to go to radial lacing yuck, which is stiff and ready to snap easily.

My concept still is that you can dump that extra power or keep the same power and alleviate that much more stress on drive train, motor, battery, controller, tyres and anything else in between, and shed a bit of weight even.

Apart from a few geo problems like shorter cranks possibly if you even still think you need to peddle lol, on road in particular where ground clearance is of little significance it could be a winning situation especially on a sprung bike.

It's an entertaining idea for a light onroad 100v peddle less race bike in particular.

I digress. Yes 2kw on road is plenty for most my riding too.

Just for a spanner in the works, hauling children around behind a bicycle is not sensible IMO. Not on anywhere near traffic including footpaths crossing driveways.

 

[LightningRods]

I just got into playing with the 3 way switch this last summer. It's great the way that you can have three separate sets of parameters programmed into the CA3. I used it to turn PAS and torque sensing off and on as well as varying the power output and top speed. For people having trouble with throttle control the 3 way switch is a $15 fix. Even without the CA it does a simple throttle signal rollback and makes low speed control easier.

 

[ElectricGod]

from a seller's point LESS power is more desirable as it will create happy users with a durable bike = high quality.

I agree. I intentionally underrate my motors. The "1500 watt" Small Block is good for twice that power level, the "3000 watt" Big Block is good for at least 5kW. The users who run these power levels are typically more experienced and expect to break things when pushing the limits.

The Cyclone "3000 watt" motor is about the same size as my Small Block. It looks larger than it is because of it's planetary reduction box.

When you say 5000 watts, do you mean momentary? My motor gets pretty warm running at 3500-4000 watts...not dangerously so...just 160F if I ride it hard all the time. Staying under 3500 watts keeps it in the 140F range.

 

[LightningRods]

I wouldn't expect to be able to run 5000 watts indefinitely with a stock, sealed case motor. I've been running at 3500 watts myself. I'm looking forward to doing some higher wattage experiments. What type is your big controller?

 

[John Bozi]

My motor gets pretty warm running at 3500-4000 watts...not dangerously so...just 160F if I ride it hard all the time. Staying under 3500 watts keeps it in the 140F range.

That's a bit warmer than I get at the same sort of power. maybe your motor is more shielded, running more amp to volt ratio? or just geared to a higher top speed?

I climbed some serious stuff yesterday as usual https://youtu.be/ZRZwjwb5fSk?list=PLhmNPJvDkKg7jlbtXLrGyAYE8YuBJc19A
and even with quite a lot of bogging bits to the point of stalling, mine was still under 50c.

Anyways lots of variables. 5kw might actually change nothing at all since it would mean avoiding the bog down and get through it quicker.

 

[LightningRods]

The swingarm mount for the Qulbix R76 and R140 is basically completed:

The most challenging aspect of this mount was that the square swingarm center brace was about 2/3 the length of the motor. I didn't like the leverage that this gave the torque of the motor over the mount so I designed a cantilever made from 5/8" thick wall square tubing. The all-thread creates a solid connection between the 10 gauge formed sheet metal brackets and the square tube. The front of the motor wants to twist upward under high torque.

The square center brace is slightly smaller than the side arms. I made a narrower second bracket of 10 gauge steel to add stiffness to the formed mount and to act as a spacer to get the mount off of the triangular "teeter totter" of the side arms.

Bottom view:

Top view:

I'll drop the motor in tomorrow. That will take all of five minutes. There isn't much left to do. I'll need to get the chain tensioner set up and then this one is completed. The bottom bracket drive is also close to completion.

 

[ElectricGod]

I wouldn't expect to be able to run 5000 watts indefinitely with a stock, sealed case motor. I've been running at 3500 watts myself. I'm looking forward to doing some higher wattage experiments. What type is your big controller?

First things first...that motor mount is going to be tough to break! It looks really great. when you start making the motor brackets for real, I'll want a couple of them.

I think the big block with opened up ends and forced air flow could handle 5000 watts continuous. Closed up...not for very long before it got too hot. That's my experience. My Kelly KBS72211E can deliver 130 phase amps continuous at 82 volts or 10,000 watts. The big block running there got hot fast and the torque gain wasn't that much better. As a result, I have my phase amps turned down considerably in the controller to where motor torque is still very good, but the motor never gets above 160F. I think I am running the motor fairly close to it maximum torque capability right now. There's a point where you can't push on the magnets any harder to get more torque. I'm running at probably 80% of that limit. I can climb right up 30 degree hills if I'm moving a little before I start climbing and leaning over the handle bars. 6-8% hills might as well be level ground for me. I accelerate right up them and if I'm not careful on the throttle, I'll pick up the front wheel. Of course current usage spikes when I do those kinds of things. Level ground acceleration is of course really good and I always lean forward when cranking the throttle so I keep the front wheel on the ground. I want to buy a second big block and open it up for active cooling, run it at 100 volts and keep my phase amps the same. That will get me pretty close to 5000+ watts continuous and my top speed on level ground will probably be 60mph. At 82 volts, I top out at 50mph. Already, most cars can't get out of an intersection faster than me...and they try sometimes. I smoked an Audi A4 a couple of weeks ago. That was awesome!

BTW...I did a speed test...exactly once to see if I could do 60 on my kick scooter. I got pretty close...58mph before I shut it down because control of the scooter was getting dodgy. I'm sure I could do 60 reliably now that I have much better wheels on it. I've never tried again...that was ridiculously fast on a stand-up scooter! The big block got pretty warm cranking all that power.

At 3500 watts what is your motor temperature? I'm curious since we both run similar wattage.

 

[John Bozi]

At 3500 watts what is your motor temperature? I'm curious since we both run similar wattage.

if you are referring to me, I did post it already.

Your gearing is for top speeds and mine for climbing... so that would explain the extra heat.

 

[LightningRods]

The Big Block comes from the factory equipped with a cooling fan driven by an extension of the motor shaft on the non-drive side. It's a flat bladed type, just meant to move air from the center of the motor out to the edges. I'd prefer something like a muffin fan that will force air through the motor. The magnets will still saturate at some point but at least we can avoid the death spiral of heat, increased resistance and more heat a bit longer.

When I was running around in the hills with the Big Block and a Rohloff I never saw the temp above 140. I have some pretty gnarly hills in my area. The only way I saw 3500 watts on the CA was pushing up steep hills in a higher gear.

 

[ElectricGod]

The Big Block comes from the factory equipped with a cooling fan driven by an extension of the motor shaft on the non-drive side. It's a flat bladed type, just meant to move air from the center of the motor out to the edges. I'd prefer something like a muffin fan that will force air through the motor. The magnets will still saturate at some point but at least we can avoid the death spiral of heat, increased resistance and more heat a bit longer.

When I was running around in the hills with the Big Block and a Rohloff I never saw the temp above 140. I have some pretty gnarly hills in my area. The only way I saw 3500 watts on the CA was pushing up steep hills in a higher gear.

I'm with you on the fan type. I'm thinking a single hole in the non-driven side to push air into the motor, but keeps dirt and water out would be sufficient and then open up 6 or 8 holes around the edges of the driven side end plate for hot air exit ought to do the trick.

This is the crappy BOMA 2000 watt I used to run at 3500 watts until I burned it out. It worked fine until those screens got clogged up with dirt and cotton wood seeds. The blower on the non-driven side couldn't push sufficient air once the screens got blocked. Something like this on the big block ought to work quite well for 5000 watts.

 

[Abneycat]

Hello! I've been working on a Big Block project with an Adaptto Mini controller, and am getting something weird.

[strike]After some tweaking of settings, the autodetect process seems to work correctly. Everything spins up and runs well during that process, and the motor is going really fast once it's in the final calibration stage, which seems right.. Once I'm back on the riding screen though, the speed and power output is very low. It tops out at around 100W and may be spinning at 20-25% of maximum speed. The motor still seems to be working properly, but something is really restricting power output.

I know these two things aren't great together, but for people who have tried to make them work, is this the issue you've been having?[/strike]

Edit: I think I resolved this. Need to test ride, but the system seems to be working fully when tested in my work stand.

Edit bonus: Spins very well now in both autodetect and in ride mode, but it won't increase in output as needed. As soon as I apply some resistive force to the motor, it just starts to slow down. It has no guts :S

Final edit: I performed a system reset and then reapplied all of the settings that got things working initially. Something must have been misconfigured on the first run, it's working perfectly now.

The process I used was:

1. Firmware update (I used the locked version)
2. System restart through advanced settings immediately
3. Change reversehall and rotation to get over autodetect not starting. Autodetect took a few seconds after starting before the motor began to move properly.
4. Fine tune timing
5. Adjust assist levels to optimum levels for LR Big Block

I'm going to perform some additional tuning and cusotmization, but this got the Adaptto Mini to a fully working state with the Big Block.

 

[ElectricGod]

I'm going to be working with LR to figure out the issues with these motors and Adapto products. There's some kind of compatibility issue with the halls or motor windings...don't know yet. You aren't the first to have issues. Adaptos can be particular at times.

 

[LightningRods]

These two components should be great together. We'll give it a go. If it's as simple as swapping out the hall sensors for a different type I am definitely up for building an Adaptto spec motor. Worst case scenario there will be a very slightly used Adaptto Midi-E for sale. Watch this space.

 

[recumpence]

FWIW, radial fans are much better than standard pitched blade fans. That is why vacuum cleaners used them. It is also better to pull air through a motor than push it through.

That being said, any air flow is better than none.

Matt

 

[LightningRods]

Matt- I'll post a photo of the factory fan when I get another shipment of motors in. The blades are flat like a radial. I wouldn't think it would be better than a muffin fan type blade for moving air sideways to it's rotation but I'm no fan expert.
E-G and I were having the conversation that just opening the can to let ambient air in and heat out is going to help quite a bit.

 

[ElectricGod]

FWIW, radial fans are much better than standard pitched blade fans. That is why vacuum cleaners used them. It is also better to pull air through a motor than push it through.

That being said, any air flow is better than none.

Matt

Do you mean a fan like this?

This is on an AstroFlight 3220 I got from you. I've added halls to this motor and spun it up several times. I've created a thread for adding halls to a 3220 if you are interested. I can feel some air movement at the fan end of the motor, but nothing at the driven side. I don't think this fan is going to work very well for pushing or pulling air through the motor. It basically just whips the air around and gets very little movement into the motor. I'm thinking of pulling it off and modifying the fins so they are twisted a little.

 

[recumpence]

Take a vacuum cleaner apart. there is a reason the blade is radial.

The centrifugal force of the air is far higher than the pressure exerted by a pitched forward pushing blade.

The reason you do not feel much air puking into the front of the can is two fold;

#1 If is drawing air into the front. That is harder to feel than air blowing.
#2 The aire is pulled through the magnet gap in the motor. That gap is tiny. Not much air is pulled through.

Trust me on this, a radial fan pulling through the windings is the best method. that is why nearly all motor manufacturers do it that way, and why all vacuum cleaners use radial fans to pull air.

Oh, let me add this; a radial fan relies on high rpm top function. Assuming the rpm is high (typically over 6,000) a radial fan is best.

Matt