LightningRods mid drive kit

[teslanv]

Do a search for "DC circuit breaker" 30A or 50A as appropriate for you controller.

 

[windtrader]

I'm going to make this my last post on this topic so we don't pollute LR thread. The key thing is the trip has to be set on temp not current draw. And I think most trips are set for voltage or current overage. Something like a temp trip is probably more specialized.

Point well beaten. On to the next one.

 

[LightningRods]

The temp sensor is mostly a nice to have, not a must have. You will not overheat this motor. It is not a hub motor. You will melt wires before the actual motor over heats. You need to pump in some massive AMPs to really heat it up. Much more than most people run on this setup.
Wishes

I agree. Only mad overvolters have any use for a temp sensor on this motor. If you're running it at 48V 30 amps it's not going to get hot. If you're running it at 100V 50 amps you have so much money in controller and batteries that you can bloody well afford to get a temp sensor and a CA 3.

 

[turbo1889]

. . . If you're running it at 100V 50 amps you have so much money in controller and batteries that you can bloody well afford to get a temp sensor and a CA 3.

Good Point!

 

[windtrader]

I agree. Only mad overvolters have any use for a temp sensor on this motor. If you're running it at 48V 30 amps it's not going to get hot. If you're running it at 100V 50 amps you have so much money in controller and batteries that you can bloody well afford to get a temp sensor and a CA 3.

I believe we agreed 30 amps was good guide for max continuous right?
Just want clarify for those following along the 100v @50 amps is brief periods of WOT under careful monitoring a CA3 and not to mean it runs at that rate continuous. I wish we had a code to indicate peak or continue when ppl post X volts @ Y amps. The distinction helps a lot being stated rather than left open.

Example above I'm sure means 100v @ 50 amps is for brief WOT while under careful ca3 monitoring.new ppl may not draw the same conclusion.

Continuous and peak rating spec sure would be great for the motor and efficieny of system, (from motor output to the drive chain sprocket,)

 

[nukezero]

LightningRod - I just sent Lyen my money for the controller! I'm fully committed now to this kit. I guess I will be one of your first testers! The kit will go on my new Electra Townie 21speed (although it'll become a 7 speed)

 

[gknowes]

LR you might won't to look into an A/C compressor external overload . they pop out when the motor gets to hot & pop in when the motor cools

 

[LightningRods]

I just received the first of the controllers from Lyen. All of the connections are clearly labeled and he changed the color coding on the phase and hall wires on the controller so that it matches Y-Y, G-G, B-B with the wires on the motor. As delivered from their respective factories the phase wire colors don't correspond and require some frustrating trial and error. Lyen has this controller set up to be plug and play with my kit. http://www.lyen.com

 

[scorpionice]

How would I know if mine is fix? I bought mine last month and told him it's for your kit.

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

How much for the Lyen controller that mates with this kit?

 

[LightningRods]

I'm not sure what Lyen was doing last month. My controllers arrived with the wires properly color coded as will all future controllers for my kit. If you are concerned that yours was sent before he made this change, contact him. If you connect the phase wires and they're not in correct sequence it won't harm the motor or controller. It just won't run.

The controller that Lyen recommends for my kit is $139 + $4 for the much recommended Cycle Analyst connector. If your name is Wishes or Bee and you need more power than the 84v 40 amps that this controller provides Lyen has even larger controllers that he can also set up to plug and play with my kit.

 

[spinningmagnets]

If your name is Wishes or Bee and you need more power than the 84V 40 amps that this controller provides Lyen has even larger controllers

84V X 40A = 3360W

Christerljung made quite a splash when he successfully ran a GNG at 100V, but even with some of the upgrades he added, the drive and the bicycle components took quite a beating. He then built up a second bike for when he was in a 100V mood, and he bypassed the pedals, using only footpegs. Most of the ES builders that love 4,000W-8,000W use a hub because that much power will wear-out/break bicycle stuff...and a hub means that the pedals and chain are then only for foot power (so they will last a long time).

Of course if you use a powerful hub...it puts a lot of weight out back, and it also doesn't allow the motor to use the available gears for slow steep techincal rides. For a nimble build that has a fairly light motor/drive that's centrally located, and also gives the motor the use of the bicycles' gears...nothing else on the market comes close to these performance specs, and this 12-FET 48V-84V controller is a perfect fit...

 

[Wishes]

If your name is Wishes or Bee and you need more power than the 84V 40 amps that this controller provides Lyen has even larger controllers

84V X 40A = 3360W

Christerljung made quite a splash when he successfully ran a GNG at 100V, but even with some of the upgrades he added, the drive and the bicycle components took quite a beating. He then built up a second bike for when he was in a 100V mood, and he bypassed the pedals, using only footpegs. Most of the ES builders that love 4,000W-8,000W use a hub because that much power will wear-out/break bicycle stuff...and a hub means that the pedals and chain are then only for foot power (so they will last a long time).

Of course if you use a powerful hub...it puts a lot of weight out back, and it also doesn't allow the motor to use the available gears for slow steep techincal rides. For a build that has a fairly light motor/drive thats centrally located, and gives the motor the use of the bicycle gears...nothing else on the market comes close to these performance specs, and this 12-FET 48V-84V controller is a perfect fit...

3360W is a good limit for your drive train. You can make it last at those power levels if you are somewhat careful. Don't shift under load, when coasting spin the motor up gradually and not WOT to catchup to the wheel spin ect.... With a few simple cautions, your drive train will last. Once you take it past this 3360 level, then be prepared to replace a lot of your bicycle parts.

And most importantly, I do not think you can over heat this motor at these power levels. No matter what you do to it.

Wishes

 

[Wishes]

I'm not sure what Lyen was doing last month. My controllers arrived with the wires properly color coded as will all future controllers for my kit. If you are concerned that yours was sent before he made this change, contact him. If you connect the phase wires and they're not in correct sequence it won't harm the motor or controller. It just won't run.

The controller that Lyen recommends for my kit is $139 + $4 for the much recommended Cycle Analyst connector. If your name is Wishes or Bee and you need more power than the 84v 40 amps that this controller provides Lyen has even larger controllers that he can also set up to plug and play with my kit.

For those of your interested, I am using this controller from Lyen "12 FET 84-132V Mark II High Voltage Racing LYEN Edition Controller" and I think it is also the same one Bee uses.

If you have a controller from Lyen that was not modified specifically for the GNG motor, from memory, i think we had to reverse the green and blue phase and hal sensor wires. But I will open up my wiring on my ebike later and post the exact color matching codes, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Wishes

 

[jk1]

3360W is a good limit for your drive train. You can make it last at those power levels if you are somewhat careful. Don't shift under load, when coasting spin the motor up gradually and not WOT to catchup to the wheel spin ect.... With a few simple cautions, your drive train will last. Once you take it past this 3360 level, then be prepared to replace a lot of your bicycle parts.

i think this power level is way too much for long term reliability when used as a mid drive with bike chain and deraileurs, for direct to the rear wheel it would be ok.

What you describe is precautions to stop a chain break or deraileur failure but this power will still mean rapid chain wear out and replacement every few hundred Km's-i.e a bad design. What i think people will be more interested in is the maximum power level a normal bike chain and chainwheels can last say 3000kms I.e their is no useing haveing 3kw of power when you need a new chain/chainwheels every 500 kms. From reading other people posts about chain wear, i think the max power should be under 2kw and then normal bike chain may last up to 3000 kms.

Any more then this power is overkill on a mid drive bike chain and expect it costly to change the bike chain, deraileur and chainwheels very often.

 

[Lenk42602]

off topic battery discussion cleaned up.

stay on topic.

please read the forum posting rules if you have any questions.

 

[Wishes]

For those of you that already have a lyen controller that was not modified specifically for the GNG motor, here is the wiring matchup:

Hall sensor wires:
Controller : GNG Motor
Red : Red
Black : Black
yellow : yellow
Blue : Green
Green : Blue

Phase Wires:

Yellow : Yellow
Blue : Green
Green : Blue


Hope that helps.

Wishes

 

[LightningRods]

i think this power level is way too much for long term reliability when used as a mid drive with bike chain and deraileurs, for direct to the rear wheel it would be ok.

What you describe is precautions to stop a chain break or deraileur failure but this power will still mean rapid chain wear out and replacement every few hundred Km's-i.e a bad design. What i think people will be more interested in is the maximum power level a normal bike chain and chainwheels can last say 3000kms I.e their is no useing haveing 3kw of power when you need a new chain/chainwheels every 500 kms. From reading other people posts about chain wear, i think the max power should be under 2kw and then normal bike chain may last up to 3000 kms.

Any more then this power is overkill on a mid drive bike chain and expect it costly to change the bike chain, deraileur and chainwheels very often.

I can agree with what both Wishes and jk1 are saying. Understand that bicycles are designed to be lightweight and to run on the very limited power that a cyclist can produce. Being able to tolerate 2kw is way over-engineered for a human powered bike. Since this kit can easily produce 4 kw we have to show some restraint or be prepared to replace final drive parts constantly. Which you do is up to you. Just be aware of what you are doing.

 

[Skippic]

Are you considering supplying extra durable parts for the final drive or at least making research what would be suitable? I mean something like a BMX chain, with a robust single wheel at the back.

 

[Wishes]

Are you considering supplying extra durable parts for the final drive or at least making research what would be suitable? I mean something like a BMX chain, with a robust single wheel at the back.

Those that have gone to the single speed, do in fact use a 1/8 BMX chain. They are much more solid. Combine it with a good rear sprocket, like a Surly and it will handle tons of torque and last. The issue mostly is the deraileur, once you remove that from the equation and are able to use a 1/8 chain, a bicycle drive train can handle much more. But there are other threads on the subject on the forum, and getting deep into it on this subject would be taking this thread off topic.

Wishes

 

[LightningRods]

I am planning a couple of approaches to making a much stronger final drive. My least favorite approach is the "one speed" direct drive solution. I want at least two speeds: "Will climb a tree" and "Hauling Ass".

 

[windtrader]

To help LR better define guidelines for those evaluating this kit, these recent discussion are starting to be bring sufficient input from the other components integrated to a running a ebike, such as bike drive chains, controllers, wheels, etc.

Here are my principles to put up expecting we can collectively refine them into so form of buyers guide. We want LR to have happy customers with happy experiences.
Starting simply, add more as requested.

OVERALL
- We are motorizing a bicycle whos engineers have spent a lot of resource to get the strongest lightest and cheapest components for people to PEDAL the bike. Power band output for a person is around 250watts to maybe 600 watts.
These kits do 750 watts all day long on regular bike gear as this output is pushing the limits but surely in the performance band for bikes to include the jolting and excessive shocks a bike takes from time to time.

Between 750 watts - 1500 watts, (continuous), e-bikes are now flowing two horsepower through the bike gear drive and the rest of the bike. This amount of power gets you flying down the road at speeds bikes rarely achieve unless on a decent downhill. Except with an e-bike the hill just got flattened and now able to do 30mph all day long. Wear on tires, brakes, wheels,rims, spokes, all start suffering from the higher speeds. There is a simple physics equation stating doubling power increase force squarered. What this means the entire bike starts taking an increasing beating when ridden faster and with greater forces (WOT off the line :)

Once you reach 2000 watts continuous, you are entering a zone where a buyer of the LR kit really should consider these other factor to ensure your ride is SAFE RELIABLE and DURABLE.

Is make any sense guys or are these keyboard clicks just heading off to Pluto??

 

[LightningRods]

Windtrader, all of the points that you raise are interesting and valid but you go into such obsessive detail that almost every discussion wanders off topic. For people wanting an overview of this mid drive it's a significant detour to go into too much detail on sidebars. More appropriate for a thread of this type is, "I found a great thread on batteries. Here's the link: ________ ." I'm not the one moderating you but I have to agree that you should start new threads for in depth discussions on driveline chains and batteries. Important, relevant topics but deserving of their own threads. The biggest problem with the internet is that there's so much information that you can't find anything.
Thanks, Mike

 

[windtrader]

Mike,
point well taken. you are a kind soul

 

[emaayan]

hi all...

i'm happy to join the party, (although late ) and while i admit i failed to understand 80% of terms here (jackshafts,blocks,all the graphs waaay over my head,anneal, etc..) nor do i understand why he can't request the manufacturer to modify the motors as he wants, if he bulk orders them. i do have some say :

background:
i have been using ecospeed mid-drive, and skilfully managed destroy many parts (mostly because of a chain reaction i caused while frying to controller) including motor hall sensors,planetary gears, chains, sprockets, and while the mounting kit itself has proven extremely sturdy and stable (unlike the previous Chinese kits which had to hammered back into place from time to time) , i wasn't able to go beyond 40 kph with the original setting, i commute to work around 10 miles a day, and i'm mostly worried about not blocking traffic, ecospeed on 2k watts was able to do that for the most part, but i wore the reduction gear which i guess caused the magnets to fractured. so all in all, a good direction, but "i need more power, scotty" , i mean michael. and so came LR kit.

i ordered my kit, but with the exception of ISIS crank and BB, i want to preserve the functionality of THUN BB torque sensor i got from justin (it seems to work rather well with current kit) so i may be able to actually do workout with it doing ingress runs. it took me a while to understand, but all i needed is a BCD 104 chainring, I.S.O square taper arms (which seems rather hard to find) and i think i'm set.
as for the controller, i got the 12 FET 3770 from em3ev, and i already saw the wire mappings here, so i'm guess i'm fine, i'l also be using his traingle 51 v battery.

a word about the china vs U.S:
ecospeed recently moved from MAC to BMC motors ,but i had the MAC motor, when i fried it , i ordered it directly from MAC (cause BMC is harder to find, but i got that as well eventually) , the supplier was very nice, and while we talked, he politely asked if i have a SPARE ECOSPEED BRACKETS , as he may want to do the entire kit himself, he didn't feel comfortable asking them directly for some reason, nice guy, did exactly what i wanted, on time, but still, the folks who make this motor,can probably make the entire kit (not sure same quality though )

personally i'm against mid drive being inside a triangle, so much wasted space, that could be used for other things like ... batteries,controllers. bags. more bags.

documentation,
if ya'll really wanna help michael, why not make a PDF similar to the "unoffcial" ca guide which is probably more official the the offical one. have LR post it to his site, same for the FAQ, instead of asking for one, it would wiser to create one based on your own experience, submit it to LR for approval and post on his site. crowd sourcing...

and one could think of an ACTUAL kickstarter for this project , right?