LightningRods mid drive kit

[panurge]

Hello
Be Aware that Here In Italy, and in many other places, if you ride a cycle, in a road that has bike lanes, it's mandatory to drive on them, If you ride on the road where is a Bike lane, you'll loose all your bicycle rights and priorities and nobody will pay you nothing in case of an accident, even if you have full reason under the standard street rules....

 

[emaayan]

Hello
Be Aware that Here In Italy, and in many other places, if you ride a cycle, in a road that has bike lanes, it's mandatory to drive on them, If you ride on the road where is a Bike lane, you'll loose all your bicycle rights and priorities and nobody will pay you nothing in case of an accident, even if you have full reason under the standard street rules....

that only makes sense with human powered bicycles, but over here, ,many people are going crazy if any e-bike is riding the sidwalks. recently they passed a law the only legalizes pedalecs,under 25 kph, throttle can only be up to 6 kph, and motor can only be hub up to 250 watts. even on THOSE specs, some folks wanted to impose additional restrictions like having a licence, mandatory testing to check no one modded them, and insurance (thankfully THAT hasn't happen) there is NO mention of anything higher (not even mopeds), customs will block anything else, and even in these specs it must be sent to the DMV for approval. (that's why i'm so paranoid about shipment).
there mumbling on transferring enforcement on city inspectors , but honestly i have no idea how they are going to enforce it (as someone told me police can't maintain a police pursuit as it may endanger lives) i'm hoping they'll go after shops and ignore folks like me alone.
but i don't want to attract any attention, so i would rather be on the road as much as i can. and in order for that to happen, i need to reach around 60 kph in around 5 seconds in order to block traffic. my current systems can almost handle that (if i use a bmc controller with 2200 watts), but my usage is 34wh/km this is because the motor has VERY high kv (as in 126 may even 192 rpm/v) but low wattage (600).
so my primary assumption and hope for L-R kit ,is that although it has lower kv (less then half of L-R) , it ability for higher wattage (which i understand is twice the motor) will give me the same performance only with higher gears. and thus allowing me to use power more effectively.
one caveat to my assumption is that the use of MAC motor, which although has lower kv (around 90/RPM) and higher wattage (1000 watts, even though it's the same size the BMC) just gives lower speeds with less watt usage , at first gear i can reach only 30 kph (as opposed to the bmc 45kph ) but the usage is 600 (vs 1800 in bmc). MAC seems to be more fragile somehow, so if i extend this pattern to L-R i might just end getting 30 kph on gear 6 but that doesn't make much sense, the same performance can be achieved on bafang , and L-R has such a huge investment in arming and fortifying his kit it seems it would be an overkill. so that doesn't make much sense.

 

[ferret]

Can someone upload a photo of the best loacation to place the heat sensor in the motor?

The red dot shows where I'm planning to drill the hole to locate the thermistor. Spinningmagnets can you post the link to your tutorial on thermistors?

I welcome any advice from the more knowledgeable on this subject.

Instead of drilling a hole, I inserted the sensor in the tunnel/arch underneath to windings. I then filled the space with hi-temp epoxy.
Placing the sensor as close as possible the winding will make the reading faster and more accurate.
I would also consider choosing a winding close the phase wires because that is were a potential hot spot is located.

Avner.

 

[--freeride--]

my current systems can almost handle that (if i use a bmc controller with 2200 watts), but my usage is 34wh/km this is because the motor has VERY high kv (as in 126 may even 192 rpm/v) but low wattage (600).

No this is because you want to go 60kph. As I told you you need 1750W for 60kph.

Going 60kph for one hour is 1750wh what you need for 60km, thats 29.16wh/km

That again is the plain mechanical value, if you are realy traveling 60kph with only 34wh/km that is preaty good and you won't get any better no matter what system you use...

That is simple physiks, going fast, does need a lot of energy. If I go 40kph and pedal on top I only need 7.5wh/km...

 

[emaayan]

my current systems can almost handle that (if i use a bmc controller with 2200 watts), but my usage is 34wh/km this is because the motor has VERY high kv (as in 126 may even 192 rpm/v) but low wattage (600).

No this is because you want to go 60kph. As I told you you need 1750W for 60kph.

Going 60kph for one hour is 1750wh what you need for 60km, thats 29.16wh/km

That again is the plain mechanical value, if you are realy traveling 60kph with only 34wh/km that is preaty good and you won't get any better no matter what system you use...

That is simple physiks, going fast, does need a lot of energy. If I go 40kph and pedal on top I only need 7.5wh/km...

but if basically all i need is 1750 watts for 60 kph without any regards to voltage of 50v or 72v and the motor does handle this (considering other folks are running it at 3000 and 4000 watts) then doesn't that mean i CAN reach 60 kph? (only in higher gears, which basically even better from my POV)

does that mean that people are using higher voltage packs just to get higher RPM's while we can play around with the gears and reductions?

 

[speedmd]

Hi emaayan

You need to start a new thread or see one of many others on the topic of speed / power / gearing. IMO This really belongs outside this thread. With that said, if your looking for a 60 km/hr continuous setup, you need a more powerful setup as you will most likely fry it in head winds or small inclines if you put the juice to it for long periods trying to maintain the speed. The stock GNG motor was rated at 450 watts / 48v. You can play around all you want, but 4 times the power is still a bit more than can be expected regardless of the voltage / controller / gearing for a reliable long life. Mike can tell you more what his stock and big block is capable of, but in my experience with my original gng1 modded 450 watt motor and 50 and 75 volt lipo setups and a host of different controllers is that your near the limit of what can be expected with reasonable gearing at 60km/hr with 50v. This is way too fast for most all bicycles anyway. Ride safe. cheers

 

[emaayan]

Hi emaayan

You need to start a new thread or see one of many others on the topic of speed / power / gearing. IMO This really belongs outside this thread. With that said, if your looking for a 60 km/hr continuous setup, you need a more powerful setup as you will most likely fry it in head winds or small inclines if you put the juice to it for long periods trying to maintain the speed. The stock GNG motor was rated at 450 watts / 48v. You can play around all you want, but 4 times the power is still a bit more than can be expected regardless of the voltage / controller / gearing for a reliable long life. Mike can tell you more what his stock and big block is capable of, but in my experience with my original gng1 modded 450 watt motor and 50 and 75 volt lipo setups and a host of different controllers is that your near the limit of what can be expected with reasonable gearing at 60km/hr with 50v. This is way too fast for most all bicycles anyway. Ride safe. cheers

4 times?
try 6 times : http://www.lightningrodev.com/

and with all due respect this most certainly does belong to this thread, forget the speed setting, i ordered a kit which is labeled as 3000 watts, and unless there's a convention everyone knows but me, that means 3000 watts CONTINUOUS usage, as well reliable long life. this goes with all the improvements that L-R placed in the REGULAR kit (not the blg block) with placing D.I.D 219 kart chains, and better sprockets, better belt, better .. well everything , and now your'e saying (unless i mis-understood, which is very possible) "3000?, forget that, it can't even handle 2000 on the long run".

barring speeds , i expect to run this kit at 2000 watts for 45 minutes (although not continuously, cause i'm not FLYING it, still crap load of traffic lights mid-way) without fearing of blowing, burning ,braking stuff in the KIT (i'll worry about the rest of bicycle).

are you saying i can't do that?

 

[BRK]

Part of this week's production. Regular length 73mm wide kits are going to Vincent D. and Dawson J. and a stretch 73mm is going out to James D. Also shipping this week are Bryan K's 68mm and (if he's very good) Emaayan's custom wired 68mm with thermistor, extra sprockets, no BB, hold the onions and dressing on the side.



Lightning Rods Honor Roll- 8/11/2014

"X" denotes kit currently in production.

Completed- Ron R- US
Completed- Eric- US
Completed- Ken F- Canada
Completed- Dennis P- Canada
Completed- David B- UK
Completed- Leif D- US
Completed- Herman L- US
1- Elhanan M- Israel X
2- Dawson J- Canada X
3- James D- Canada X
4- Bryan K- US X
5- Vincent D- Canada X
6- Brian M- US X
7- Jeremy L- US X
8- Andrew F- UK X
9- Tom F- US X
10- Stephen F- Switz X
11- Paul D- US X
12- Richard K- US X
13- Zach J- US X
14- Dean M- US X
15- Derek M- Canada
16- Tom E- Australia
17- Nathan B- Canada
18- Fabrice V- France
19- John B- Florida, US
20- Steven H- CA, US
21- Nathan B- Canada
22- Jason S- TX, US
23- Sid A- Australia
24- Wayne S- UK

OOPS ! Bryan K's rig is supposed to be 73mm. Can you please check my order?

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

and with all due respect this most certainly does belong to this thread...

Maybe the first hundred times you brought it up. But by continually asking the same questions, and by your refusal or inability to learn anything from their replies you are beginning to reach the limits of some peoples patience.

 

[skyungjae]

Perhaps Mike can separate nominal power with peak power. I think other companies had the same issue with customer confusion. E'go used to advertise just their peak power at 24/2500W. I'm sure after a lot of questions and misunderstandings, they had to put 1200W nominal/2500W peak.

http://www.ego-kits.com/en/ego-kits/

Edit:

I just wanted to add that Mike's kit and his upgrades for GNG users really brings extreme trail performance at a much more reasonable price point. It's also likely the quietest mid-drive set up at its power rating.

The kit's like the one I linked above, you end up paying $1 per theoretical peak Wattage.

 

[izeman]

Hi,

and with all due respect this most certainly does belong to this thread...

Maybe the first hundred times you brought it up. But by continually asking the same questions, and by your refusal or inability to learn anything from their replies you are beginning to reach the limits of some peoples patience.

why? he's made just 17% of all posts in this thread that's more then i have sometimes in my own threads

 

[sparkz]

Signal to noise ratio...

 

[emaayan]

all my questions previously were related to speed output in various combinations of reductions (receiving multiple answers, from yes sure you can, to depends on your gears to , not sure, you'll have check)

no where did i ask "how long can i run this at 2000w", i seemed obvious to me that if the kit is advertised as 3000 watts, being SOMETIMES run as 4000w,and built like it would outlast zombie apocalypse , then i would perfectly in the "safe" zone running it at 2000w.

now you all can laugh at me as much as you want , but unless L-R kit is planned for only E-S veterans, i can GUARANTEE that this of confusion and misunderstanding would come a lot more, by even less experienced users then me, coming from the software industries i'm fully aware of the confusion some requirement specifications documents might generate (i even stated previously here that i may have miss-understood power limit, so i do NOT imply dis-honesty) however, if you specify a kit to run at 3000 watts, some people WILL expect to run at that level, unless you tell them otherwise, and they won't be as forgiving, once they discover it's not.

so i cannot stress this enough, you HAVE to publish clearly the power level this kit can operate safely for a long time. as an example ecospeed told me, that their motor can operate at 1500 watts, but they won't give you any warranty if you do that, only if you operate it at 1300. that's how i knew where i stood.

i'm switching to L-R because i got tired of being told "you can't run your ecospeed kit at 2000w , it's not built for that" , and i'd have to agree with them, because ecospeed kit was published as 1300 watts kit. i don't want a re-run of this thing to happening again with L-R, if you're telling me i can run it safely only at 1500 watts, then what would be the point of switching for only 200 watts difference between the 2 kits?

 

[KMB]

Starting F.A.Q (from memory and imagination, so anything could be wrong , i'm just providing a template)

Q: Give me a number! how fast will it go? how far? how strong?
A: while each setup is individual and dependent on the controller and battery (which we do not provide) , we have recorded cases of 80 kph and range of (fill in the blanks), the recommended rating for this motor is around 2200 watts, however it can go up to 3000w

Q: what type of warranty do you provide?
A: lifetime warrenty (just kidding, again TBD),however we will not provide warranty on the motor if you decide to source your own controller other then our own (matching phases and halls can be risky)

Q: i just broke part x, how long will i have to wait for a new one?
A: we stock of all major components so it's mostly shipping dependent.

Q: what bikes will it Fit?
A: the kit is designed to fit majority of standard bikes, without any special modifications to the kit or the bikes

Q: what's the lead time for the kit
A: currently it's a 3 weeks waiting period, but we're working on shortning that

Q: i ordered the kit and discovered it won't fit my current bike, what do i do?
A: good questions (TBD)

Q: do you make custom kits for special bikes
A: we definitely plan to! , but not in the near future.

Q: do you have any distributors
A: not at this time

Q: do you ship internationally.
A: yes

I guess it does appear you asked, before this post April 29th

 

[emaayan]

Starting F.A.Q (from memory and imagination, so anything could be wrong , i'm just providing a template)

Q: Give me a number! how fast will it go? how far? how strong?
A: while each setup is individual and dependent on the controller and battery (which we do not provide) , we have recorded cases of 80 kph and range of (fill in the blanks), the recommended rating for this motor is around 2200 watts, however it can go up to 3000w

Q: what type of warranty do you provide?
A: lifetime warrenty (just kidding, again TBD),however we will not provide warranty on the motor if you decide to source your own controller other then our own (matching phases and halls can be risky)

Q: i just broke part x, how long will i have to wait for a new one?
A: we stock of all major components so it's mostly shipping dependent.

Q: what bikes will it Fit?
A: the kit is designed to fit majority of standard bikes, without any special modifications to the kit or the bikes

Q: what's the lead time for the kit
A: currently it's a 3 weeks waiting period, but we're working on shortning that

Q: i ordered the kit and discovered it won't fit my current bike, what do i do?
A: good questions (TBD)

Q: do you make custom kits for special bikes
A: we definitely plan to! , but not in the near future.

Q: do you have any distributors
A: not at this time

Q: do you ship internationally.
A: yes

I guess it does appear you asked

NO! this was a template, i filled in answers as well with cursory knowledge, expecting to be corrected at every turn , and be replaced with the official word, i thought ludicrous answers made it clear, crap i hope no-one took those seriously, even though.. i specifically stated, ANYTHING COULD BE WRONG, and it's a template.

 

[LightningRods]

OOPS ! Bryan K's rig is supposed to be 73mm. Can you please check my order?

You are correct sir. So amended. I also caught the stretch 73mm bracket for Vincent. That's why I post these things.

Emaayan doesn't bother me. He's been around so long he's getting to be like my college roommate- I hardly know he's there. Pretty soon I'll be able to bring girls into the room with him snoring six feet away. :wink:

Don't think the pithy chatter will end once he has his kit. If anything I expect his OCD to kick into overdrive. I may start posting a blog on my web site.

 

[emaayan]

OOPS ! Bryan K's rig is supposed to be 73mm. Can you please check my order?

You are correct sir. So amended. I also caught the stretch 73mm bracket for Vincent. That's why I post these things.

Emaayan doesn't bother me. He's been around so long he's getting to be like my college roommate- I hardly know he's there. Pretty soon I'll be able to bring girls into the room with him snoring six feet away. :wink:

Don't think the pithy chatter will end once he has his kit. If anything I expect his OCD to kick into overdrive. I may start posting a blog on my web site.

dude, you haven't heard me snoring did you..

hey, if you start posting a blog, does that mean i'm exempt from doing a build a thread? just saying..

 

[LightningRods]

You're free to create a build thread and post whatever you please. The purpose of the blog on my web site is to provide only useful information without a lot of extraneous chatter. I constantly get PMs saying "I've been reading your thread. Lot's of good information in there but it's hard to find with all of the off topic banter."

The moderators at E-S have chosen to respect freedom of speech and let everyone have their say, however pointless or self-indulgent it may be. I can't completely disagree with that because it is annoying to have net nazis tidying up constantly. I guess you have to pick your poison. The poison here on E-S is lots of skimming to get past the faffing and find the information we're looking for.

 

[sparkz]

Quit guessing. If you have a Cycle Analyst, V2.3 and up, I believe, you can log the output data to a laptop and directly evaluate your riding style (power-wise.) The Cycle Analyst TRS communications cable transmits a serial data stream with the current status of the vehicle. The format is tab-deliminated ASCII text at a 9600 baud rate. After power-up, the CA outputs a header line, and then at a rate of once a second or 5 times a second it transmits the amp-hours, voltage, amperage, speed, and distance. Go on a sampling of your usual rides, capture the data on a laptop, and import the files into a spreadsheet. It can draw pretty graphs of your power demand during your rides. Then you'll know if your really need 3000W continuous power output.

 

[emaayan]

Quit guessing. If you have a Cycle Analyst, V2.3 and up, I believe, you can log the output data to a laptop and directly evaluate your riding style (power-wise.) The Cycle Analyst TRS communications cable transmits a serial data stream with the current status of the vehicle. The format is tab-deliminated ASCII text at a 9600 baud rate. After power-up, the CA outputs a header line, and then at a rate of once a second or 5 times a second it transmits the amp-hours, voltage, amperage, speed, and distance. Go on a sampling of your usual rides, capture the data on a laptop, and import the files into a spreadsheet. It can draw pretty graphs of your power demand during your rides. Then you'll know if your really need 3000W continuous power output.

i guess you missed my message where i'll promised i'll log the trip with analogger using his kit.

i already did all that with my current kit , months ago when i first got the data logger, except the last part about the graphs, i posted the data file here, in the hopes for anyone helping me out to analyze it and see if it's efficient.
still waiting though..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57679

 

[emaayan]

You're free to create a build thread and post whatever you please. The purpose of the blog on my web site is to provide only useful information without a lot of extraneous chatter. I constantly get PMs saying "I've been reading your thread. Lot's of good information in there but it's hard to find with all of the off topic banter."

The moderators at E-S have chosen to respect freedom of speech and let everyone have their say, however pointless or self-indulgent it may be. I can't completely disagree with that because it is annoying to have net nazis tidying up constantly. I guess you have to pick your poison. The poison here on E-S is lots of skimming to get past the faffing and find the information we're looking for.

regardless of banter or poison, a blog from you is always a good idea, is provides an official word from "the man", regarding announcements, events, progress,etc.. that's was my initial attempt at an F.A.Q
i was hoping to provide a starting point for concentrated focused information (yea, i know that's me talking) for new users, you can't rely on a forum thread to give you that, especially one without a tree structure, even if you filter out my own banter, you still have topics regarding old parts, previous kits, connectors, controllers, topics that may skim the seam line between the kit and general questions, and off course velovadar.
you can't order them, you can't group them, it's thread, that's it.

you don't have to invest in a blog platform on your site, you can start with you facebook page, right now, it's tailored for blog entries, and if everyone here subscribe ,like and share with their friends each of your news entries, it's viral nature will definitely expose your content faster then this thread.

 

[speedmd]

Emaayan doesn't bother me. He's been around so long he's getting to be like my college roommate- I hardly know he's there. Pretty soon I'll be able to bring girls into the room with him snoring six feet away. :wink:

Don't think the pithy chatter will end once he has his kit. If anything I expect his OCD to kick into overdrive. I may start posting a blog on my web site.

"Expectations ruin relationships". Expecting guarantees and unrealistic power levels that your not claiming at least to my knowledge. Not understanding peak vs continuous power levels. No idea what happens when putting the juice to it in stop and go situations or if in too tall a gear when doing it. Not understanding what efficiency vs RPM vs speed does to heating cycles. Your more confident than I that it will end well. Lots of history in the GNG1 thread that should answer most of the repeated questions on speed. Looks to me he will be the kind of roommate that helps himself to your girl friend just because you fell asleep.

You may want to give a clear peak power rating vs continuous rating with typical battery / voltage/ controller setups on the motor to avoid the misunderstandings but IMO the basic questions mostly belongs in a separate build /help thread. You have much more patience than I. Cheers!

 

[emaayan]

Emaayan doesn't bother me. He's been around so long he's getting to be like my college roommate- I hardly know he's there. Pretty soon I'll be able to bring girls into the room with him snoring six feet away. :wink:

Don't think the pithy chatter will end once he has his kit. If anything I expect his OCD to kick into overdrive. I may start posting a blog on my web site.

"Expectations ruin relationships". Expecting guarantees and unrealistic power levels that your not claiming at least to my knowledge. Not understanding peak vs continuous power levels. No idea what happens when putting the juice to it in stop and go situations or if in too tall a gear when doing it. Not understanding what efficiency vs RPM vs speed does to heating cycles. Your more confident than I that it will end well. Lots of history in the GNG1 thread that should answer most of the repeated questions on speed. Looks to me he will be the kind of roommate that helps himself to your girl friend just because you fell asleep.

You may want to give a clear peak power rating vs continuous rating with typical battery / voltage/ controller setups on the motor to avoid the misunderstandings but IMO the basic questions mostly belongs in a separate build /help thread. You have much more patience than I. Cheers!

he's gonna need it , because in the end, there'll be a lot more users with even less amount of knowledge, less experience,won't even know what's a GNG, they'll just go (switch to homer voice ) "3000 watts..grrrr" unless you're planning l-r kit as sort connoisseur only kit, (imagine french wine taster twiddling his mustache), i'm giving a small taste of what's to come. the questions i'm asking WILL be asked again. and again.. (only by different folks, usually once, but still)

but i agree with you on all counts, definitely state clear peak power rating vs continuous in a typical (emphasizing it's TYPICAL, for what it's worth ) and separate help thread, only not a thread, but on his page. better control.

 

[LightningRods]

The motor factory rates these motors at 500 watts so that's what I guarantee that they will withstand continuously. It's been well documented that the GNG motor is happy as a clam at high tide at 1,500 watts. Extreme users have run this motor to 4 kW and beyond and the gossip I hear is that this motor tolerates those power levels very well. I don't guarantee that you can't burn this motor up despite all of it's good qualities. If someone runs enough current through it or lugs it around at low rpm/high loads enough they will probably succeed in killing it. I gave up long ago on the idea that anything is idiot proof.

Spinningmagnets calls my kit a "1,500 watt" kit and he's smart to do so. 50V 30 amps is a very reasonable daily limit for the small block if you want it to live. Many, many people run it much harder but they do so under their own supervision. I personally will be running a 50V 40a limit for starters on my own bike.

 

[LightningRods]

he's gonna need it , because in the end, there'll be a lot more users with even less amount of knowledge, less experience,

Alright smart guy. Your motor is on my work bench with it's guts hanging out. Do you want me to stay on here playing high school debate team with you or get that sucker finished and put together? You can't have both.

And I think you're flattering yourself. :wink: