LightningRods mid drive kit

[born2drv]

I think that a big block with a one speed could be a lot of fun. Like Matt Shumaker's kits once you have a certain level of electric power you don't need gears any longer. The same gear that has too much power at takeoff will do 50 mph. If you want to go faster than 50 on a bicycle you are crazier than I am and I can't help you. You should contact NASA. They have a rocket sled you might enjoy.

The small block motor will handle 72V 40 amps. If that's your target save 5 lbs and $200 on the big motor. We don't know the limits of the big motor yet but my guesstimate is at least 60 amps. I recommend single speed for the big motor and multiple gears for the small motor. There are several people wanting a fat bike for trail packing use and are going to run the big block at 50V and 40-50 amps. In that case the gears will work if you don't hammer the shifts.

Square frame tubes are easier to secure the motor mount on. The way that I designed my mount bracket if there is a round frame tube it will settle into a vee that will give better contact with it. If there's a big flat tube there is flat area outside of the vee to catch that profile. My life would be easier if it would just be one way or the other.

OK so just to confirm (because I didn't see the info on your website about the big block), the regular kit is $800 and the big block kit is $1000?

Are both kits ready to go? Can I place an order soon and when could I expect to get it?

Can you please recommend a controller and throttle?

I think I'm leaning more towards the single speed + big block and running 82-100V battery at lower amperage (20-30amps @ 1500-2500 watts) so I could turn it up to 40-60 amps if I wanted to when I drive through sand or just need extra torque. What do you think of that setup?

 

[LightningRods]

Out of respect for E-S and their desire to keep blatant sales out of these discussion threads I don't discuss pricing or sales details here. Please PM me for that kind of information.

Both kits are going through extensive upgrades right now. I expect around two weeks to get the improved parts. There is a long line ahead of you however. It will take me at least three months to get caught up on back orders. If you are in a hurry this is the wrong line to get in.

At 1500-2500 watts you don't need the big motor. You'd be better off with the small motor running through the gears. 1500-2500 is right in the small motor's sweet spot.

I like Edward Lyen's controllers. He's set one up specifically for my kits. He also has a decent throttle. The Magura is even better but is $50 compared to $15 for Lyen's throttle.

 

[scorpionice]

Heads up for bikes with ISCG05 BB type like mine, you need to file a bit of your BB lip to fit the lower sheet to BB attachement. (I thought you may want to know this Mike for future updates). Maybe for future lower sheet make the bend a bit far like 1/8-1/4 so it won't hit. But excited to see the kit is lining well on my frame.

 

[scorpionice]

Quick solution rather than filing the ISCG05. I might lose the strength of the brace across but I don't want to ruin my bike just in case I want to go back and pedal a light bike. Is it OK if I force to tighten the isis bb? I hand tight it until I reach that position in the picture and stop. Any suggestion?

 

[jdevo2004]

You could potentially dremel out the bottom sheet holes to better fit around your BB. Problem is that once that is done, you will not be able to use those bottom sheets for any other bike because of the play it will cause for other bikes. For your bike it should work since the ISCG will be butted up against the bottom sheets for stability.

 

[scorpionice]

I just trim out the bottom support of the lower sheet as you can see on the picture. One question though, can I just tighten out the isis even if it feels tight? The reason I'm just worried is because the Shimano saint BB that I'm using before is not this tight but the saint got less thread than the ISIS. Did you encounter this on your build? I'm using 73mm BB. Thanks

 

[LightningRods]

If you had the luxury of building a steel box around that frame member to restore the strength of the lower sheet that would be good. You've cut away most of the cross brace. Once the kit is in place you could also see if you could bolt through one of the ISCG05 holes into the BB side bracket.

Be careful that the ISIS cups are not bottoming out at the end of the threads in your BB shell. Someone else had this problem recently and ended up having to get the threads turned down on the ends of the cups. Not all frames are threaded to the same depth.

 

[scorpionice]

So do I need to cut the BB shell and not force it? I've got 1/4" on both side to turn.

 

[jdevo2004]

Hes telling you to make sure the threads are deep enough in the bottom bracket. If need be you can get them threaded deeper at a bike shop. Dont force anything.

 

[emaayan]

it might feel tight due to the loctite threads (red threads) in the bb, if they feel tight as as soon as these threads are starting to enter the shell.

 

[emaayan]

Will placing the order for lower sheets now,places me in a queue or it doesnt matter ?

 

[LightningRods]

Nacent is currently running computer stress simulations to see how the modifications have affected the upper sheets. If there are no obvious shortcomings I'm going straight into production with them.

Lower sheets will get modified two bolt adjusters and the best hardware that I'm able to fit to them. As my stock of lower sheets runs out I'll make modifications to enhance their rigidity and to fit larger hardware.

The process of making parts better with every batch at the laser cutter won't stop until there seems to be no benefit from making changes.

The first people to receive the new sheets will be beta testers that I trust.

 

[emaayan]

yay for beta testers!

so the stronger lower sheet will come into production once your current stock runs out?

 

[izeman]

The first people to receive the new sheets will be beta testers that I trust.

maybe some guys should REREAD that statement?!

 

[emaayan]

The first people to receive the new sheets will be beta testers that I trust.

maybe some guys should REREAD that statement?!

i don't recall intentionally signing for beta testing, i mean it's great that i had lead time to know the problems and understand most or at least some of what's been talked here, but i don't have luxury or the knowledge to test ,diagnose problems and suggest solutions, so he SHOULDN'T trust me for that. for me it just means that i'll get a more mature and stable product when it comes of the format beta testing period ..so .. again.. YAY FOR BETA (btw who IS mr green?)

 

[LightningRods]

maybe some guys should REREAD that statement?!

It's important that beta testers (early users) have mechanical skills, a basic knowledge of what the designer was trying to accomplish, sensitivity to how mechanical systems are reacting to real world stresses, and above all a desire to help the project succeed.

Luckily E-S is full of exactly that type of person. I have made the mistake in the past of assuming that EVERYONE on E-S fit this role. The truth is that there are a lot of different types reading these threads. I've learned a lot about that over the past two years.

At the point where the people who should have an early production part in their hands get back to me with glowing reports is when I'll release the parts to the rest of the world.

 

[emaayan]

maybe some guys should REREAD that statement?!

It's important that beta testers (early users) have mechanical skills, a basic knowledge of what the designer was trying to accomplish, sensitivity to how mechanical systems are reacting to real world stresses, and above all a desire to help the project succeed.

Luckily E-S is full of exactly that type of person. I have made the mistake in the past of assuming that EVERYONE on E-S fit this role. The truth is that there are a lot of different types reading these threads. I've learned a lot about that over the past two years.

At the point where the people who should have an early production part in their hands get back to me with glowing reports is when I'll release the parts to the rest of the world.[/quote]

what he said with bells on, as i only have the "desire to help the project succeed" that's insufficient. do not make the mistake from my posts that i think this kit is not good. from the brief time periods i had it on i believe it's about 25% more efficient then i have right now, and still be able to reach the same speeds i currently get. i've re-assembled it again now , with the hopes that the extended plastic would be able to cut it , but i think the bolt is just crushing it, so i'll try it to make that part from metal.
the only thing i'm afraid of right now is that it might be loose enough that the chain will fall of and leave me stranded. i'm not sure if that's possible.

 

[emaayan]

what he said with bells on, as i only have the "desire to help the project succeed" that's insufficient. do not make the mistake from my posts that i think this kit is not good. from the brief time periods i had it on i believe it's about 25% more efficient then i have right now, and still be able to reach the same speeds i currently get. i've re-assembled it again now , with the hopes that the extended plastic would be able to cut it , but i think the bolt is just crushing it, so i'll try it to make that part from metal.
the only thing i'm afraid of right now is that it might be loose enough that the chain will fall of and leave me stranded. i'm not sure if that's possible.

 

[ATWWheels]

Pardon my ignorance, but if I recall correctly, I thought this kit was compatible with THUN sensor for the 68mm BB.

I've been eyeing this kit for a very long time, and I'm wondering if the L-R kit is compatible with any of the "true" torque sensors (TDCM/ISIS/THUN), and the min spindle length you'd need.

 

[LightningRods]

I'm starting to think about making a torque sensing version of the GNG Gen 2 that I made an adjustable bracket for about a year and a half ago. It's power level is more appropriate for pedal assist and it will probably work with the Thun BB width.

Commuters always like to play at being racers, but race vehicles make miserable commuter vehicles. And vice versa.

 

[emaayan]

Pardon my ignorance, but if I recall correctly, I thought this kit was compatible with THUN sensor for the 68mm BB.

I've been eyeing this kit for a very long time, and I'm wondering if the L-R kit is compatible with any of the "true" torque sensors (TDCM/ISIS/THUN), and the min spindle length you'd need.

for mid-drives in general only the thun can be used as torque sensor, this is because it's works on the left side, has it worked on the right, you would have gotten a feedback from the motor, i although i'm not sure about the ISIS version, but the TDCM doesn't work on the left side.

second once again because you require a large spindle i the first place, only the thun has an extra long one (135 mm), and that's not only on special order.

and finally THIS kit will only work with a minimum of a 148 mm spindle, (and a 68~73mm version of that can only be found on cyclone kit, so there can be only one bb that can be used with this kit). this is because if you try to use anything shorter the arms will be bang against belt's mudguard, (or at least it's against it's button bolt).
the only possible way make this kit work with thun is to design a new crank arm (like ecospeed did with theirs,i think they did it for the same reason L-R's arms tend to graze against the bolts of the pant guard) i thought about doing so, but i was told it's way to expansive ,and i have no idea on even where to turn to .

further more you can't fit P.A.S sensor on to it, (at least not the ones from ebike.ca) the left side sensor can't fit onto the large thick spindle. and the right one needs either a 64 mm 4 bolt bcd or a 5 bolt 78 bcd chain ring for it's adapter to fit, although justin says you might be able to fit that in if you play around with it. i was planning to buy a right version, and send it directly to mike, but i'll wait for him to first complete the more critical issues.

 

[NordicNorm]

+1 for strong interest in a torque sensing version for my Big Dummy. Thanks for all your hard work and continuing refinements Mike!

I'm starting to think about making a torque sensing version of the GNG Gen 2 that I made an adjustable bracket for about a year and a half ago. It's power level is more appropriate for pedal assist and it will probably work with the Thun BB width.

Commuters always like to play at being racers, but race vehicles make miserable commuter vehicles. And vice versa.

 

[notger]

for mid-drives in general only the thun can be used as torque sensor, this is because it's works on the left side, has it worked on the right, you would have gotten a feedback from the motor, i although i'm not sure about the ISIS version, but the TDCM doesn't work on the left side.

I'm not torque sensor experienced, but..

if yout chainring freewheel is working properly it should not matter wich side or if even both are measured?

sure, if you do not put your feet on the pedals they will get turned a little, but that's nothing that should get measured as torque, an if it wil not be worth sending a signal to the controller.

 

[emaayan]

for mid-drives in general only the thun can be used as torque sensor, this is because it's works on the left side, has it worked on the right, you would have gotten a feedback from the motor, i although i'm not sure about the ISIS version, but the TDCM doesn't work on the left side.

I'm not torque sensor experienced, but..

if yout chainring freewheel is working properly it should not matter wich side or if even both are measured?

sure, if you do not put your feet on the pedals they will get turned a little, but that's nothing that should get measured as torque, an if it wil not be worth sending a signal to the controller.

and yet i had several instances where even when the pedals were turning around freely that registered as signal and the bike jumped, there were a number of discussions on the subject and i even quoted justin himself for the need of a left side measurement. anyway since even thun's longest spindle is not enough for this kit, i would it rather theoretical.

 

[notger]

and yet i had several instances where even when the pedals were turning around freely that registered as signal and the bike jumped, there were a number of discussions on the subject and i even quoted justin himself for the need of a left side measurement. anyway since even thun's longest spindle is not enough for this kit, i would it rather theoretical.

i'd like to understand that.
When could you end up in the situation, that the cranks turn freely, just with feet in the air, while a superman or other no footer stunts i belief that the bike "jumps" then.