LightningRods mid drive kit
- Thread starter spinningmagnets
- Start date
electron bom
1 W
Salutations Mike!
The pics in this thread are very exciting to say the least!
-Rick K.
The pics in this thread are very exciting to say the least!
-Rick K.
LightningRods
1 MW
Thanks Rick. This is where we are right now:
The new design for the 10 gauge upper sheets with new rear hanger and front bolt in brace are in production at the laser shop. They haven't given me a completion date yet. When they do I'll post it here.
Forum member Joe is printing our new upper pulley model that I will use to make a new mold. This pulley is the same design other than being a couple of millimeters wider to give the belt more 'walk' room. The finish from Joe's modeling printer is on another planet compared to the Objet that the first model was printed on. It makes the Objet look like Legos.
I'm putting two lower adjuster bolts on all new orders to help keep the lower sheets straight and secure.
Other than the new sheets that we're waiting on I have motors, jackshafts, crank sets, sprockets, pulleys, sprockets, everything to complete and ship 12 orders. The first order of the new sheets is for 30 sets, 20 small block and 10 big block. Once I see that everything is going well and that the new sheets stand up to the abuse that you E-S maniacs dish out I'll order a steady supply to keep steadily shipping kits.
On the one step forward, two step back page, I contacted the factory in China to try to plan ahead for another 100 motors. My previous contact who was so good to deal with is gone and the new person is "not speaking such good Engrish". I'm concerned that it's just a tactic because they seem unable to understand the previous price and terms that I had with the company. They alternate between quoting a price that is twice what I can get the motors for on TaoBao and quoting a price with freight not included. Dealing with China is incredibly frustrating if you just want to deal straight and get on with business. I would love to find a source for affordable US made motors.
I still have around 60 small blocks and 8 big blocks in the shop. Way more than I need to fill all current orders.
The new design for the 10 gauge upper sheets with new rear hanger and front bolt in brace are in production at the laser shop. They haven't given me a completion date yet. When they do I'll post it here.
Forum member Joe is printing our new upper pulley model that I will use to make a new mold. This pulley is the same design other than being a couple of millimeters wider to give the belt more 'walk' room. The finish from Joe's modeling printer is on another planet compared to the Objet that the first model was printed on. It makes the Objet look like Legos.
I'm putting two lower adjuster bolts on all new orders to help keep the lower sheets straight and secure.
Other than the new sheets that we're waiting on I have motors, jackshafts, crank sets, sprockets, pulleys, sprockets, everything to complete and ship 12 orders. The first order of the new sheets is for 30 sets, 20 small block and 10 big block. Once I see that everything is going well and that the new sheets stand up to the abuse that you E-S maniacs dish out I'll order a steady supply to keep steadily shipping kits.
On the one step forward, two step back page, I contacted the factory in China to try to plan ahead for another 100 motors. My previous contact who was so good to deal with is gone and the new person is "not speaking such good Engrish". I'm concerned that it's just a tactic because they seem unable to understand the previous price and terms that I had with the company. They alternate between quoting a price that is twice what I can get the motors for on TaoBao and quoting a price with freight not included. Dealing with China is incredibly frustrating if you just want to deal straight and get on with business. I would love to find a source for affordable US made motors.
I still have around 60 small blocks and 8 big blocks in the shop. Way more than I need to fill all current orders.
what's the difference between dealing with these guys and dealing with taobao?
a question about the new mudguard, i recall you said that with new pant guard it would require to make holes in the 219 driven sprocket, does this mean driven sprockets of all sizes?
a question about the new mudguard, i recall you said that with new pant guard it would require to make holes in the 219 driven sprocket, does this mean driven sprockets of all sizes?
I just upgraded my entire front drive train with a new 36 tooth race face thick thin sprocket, a new 64 tooth kart sprocket and a new MRP S4 chain guide (without guard). It took a little bit of modification but it all fit and it works great! I never realized how much noise my other crappy custom chain guide was making. The bike is quieter than ever!
I have been thinking about the pant guard as well. It is annoying that it has to stick so far out to get the chain guide to fit properly. It sticks out into the pedal area and I had to grind down the pedal to make it work. I was thinking that a hub cap design might be the ticket. Unfortunately it is somewhat expensive to manufacture such a piece and the at cost price for 20 units is about $80 each whether it is made from delrin plastic or 6060 aluminum, the price does not seem to change much. It would look pretty cool though. Now that I think about it, if Mike has molding facilities in his shop that would bring down the costs for a part like this. Hard plastic like the belt pully would be perfect for this part.
I have been thinking about the pant guard as well. It is annoying that it has to stick so far out to get the chain guide to fit properly. It sticks out into the pedal area and I had to grind down the pedal to make it work. I was thinking that a hub cap design might be the ticket. Unfortunately it is somewhat expensive to manufacture such a piece and the at cost price for 20 units is about $80 each whether it is made from delrin plastic or 6060 aluminum, the price does not seem to change much. It would look pretty cool though. Now that I think about it, if Mike has molding facilities in his shop that would bring down the costs for a part like this. Hard plastic like the belt pully would be perfect for this part.
LightningRods
1 MW
The new pants ring is shown in red. In addition to being thinner it'll be made of .100" aluminum to save more weight. It attaches to tapped holes in the 219 sprocket with bolts and spacers.
I'm going to sell 75T and 80T sprockets with the holes tapped for the pants ring. Sprockets are available from 64T to 93T but I don't provide guards for sizes other than 75T and 80T.
I'm going to sell 75T and 80T sprockets with the holes tapped for the pants ring. Sprockets are available from 64T to 93T but I don't provide guards for sizes other than 75T and 80T.
LightningRods
1 MW
Here's the final design for the rear hanger. I abandoned the bolt and two plate design because there wasn't really room for it on the small block kit. Going outside of the sheets with the bolts caused too much flex for the bolts to clamp as I had wanted and it also made it difficult for the mount to swing to catch different front downtube angles. Also every different bottom bracket width places the centerline on the upper bracket in a different place. A full width bracket is not adjustable side to side.
This mount is twice as tall as the GNG mount, has a formed back to make better contact with curved frame tubes, and uses two hose clamps instead of one for twice as much clamping power. I'm also going to look for some thick sheet rubber that I'll cut into strips the same width as the mount. The rubber will protect the bike's frame and help the hose clamps get a grip.
This mount is twice as tall as the GNG mount, has a formed back to make better contact with curved frame tubes, and uses two hose clamps instead of one for twice as much clamping power. I'm also going to look for some thick sheet rubber that I'll cut into strips the same width as the mount. The rubber will protect the bike's frame and help the hose clamps get a grip.
r3volved
100 kW
With a squared downtube on my VPS, would you (or anyone) think that filling the bracket's inner concavity with epoxy putty to form it exactly to my downtube would be a good idea?
I've never used a puddy before, but I'm under the impression it cures hard like steel...does this seem like a good idea?
Personally I was going to do this for fit regardless of how your bracket ends up. Seems like the easiest way for a 'universal' mount.
I've never used a puddy before, but I'm under the impression it cures hard like steel...does this seem like a good idea?
Personally I was going to do this for fit regardless of how your bracket ends up. Seems like the easiest way for a 'universal' mount.
LightningRods
1 MW
I thought about offering a two part epoxy putty that kit users can mix up themselves on the spot. I'm also playing with the idea of molding a urethane crescent to fit in that space. I'm not sure that there is really that much to be gained on a flat tube by filling in the void. The two high points on the sides probably do as much to stabilize the bracket on the frame as the full width plate. We need to grip the round tube to resist rotation but not the flat tube.
It would also be simple enough to offer two versions of this bracket. One formed for a round tube and the other flat. The flat bracket would just have one less break operation done to it.
Additional stress tests were planned but there were compatibility issues between my 3D programs and Nacent's Solidworks so I nixed that idea. We burned two days as it was. I can't hold up the process any longer. It's time to ship kits!
It would also be simple enough to offer two versions of this bracket. One formed for a round tube and the other flat. The flat bracket would just have one less break operation done to it.
Additional stress tests were planned but there were compatibility issues between my 3D programs and Nacent's Solidworks so I nixed that idea. We burned two days as it was. I can't hold up the process any longer. It's time to ship kits!
Cryptic
10 W
Hmm. Need to measure the width of the flat underside of my downtube - I have a feeling it may well be more than an inch wide...
If I need to fill in, I'm going to try polymorph.
If I need to fill in, I'm going to try polymorph.
LightningRods
1 MW
I just heard back from the forming shop. $500 to make the tool to form that bend into the back plate. Looks like the square tube guys win!
However, all of the talk about filling in the recess to make it flat has me thinking, as usual, backwards. I'm going to try to cast a hard rubber piece to put over the flat plate that will create the round shape that I originally wanted.
However, all of the talk about filling in the recess to make it flat has me thinking, as usual, backwards. I'm going to try to cast a hard rubber piece to put over the flat plate that will create the round shape that I originally wanted.
r3volved
100 kW
From what I've seen of the putty, one could easily mould a buffer between the flat brace and round tube. I will likely use it regardless. There's a huge weld straight down the middle of the frame so even a flat bracket needs a buffer piece.
Seems like a good solution as long as that putty is as good as it seems.
Seems like a good solution as long as that putty is as good as it seems.
--freeride--
100 W
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2011
- Messages
- 237
LightningRods
1 MW
Sugru is good stuff! It might work really well. As I remember you can buy it in small individual application packets. I'll have to get some and play with it.
Drum
100 W
r3volved: I support the idea of using Epoxy Putty to adapt the bracket to exactly fit the bike's downtube. I have used it in several similar situations and have always been happy with the result.
Obviously there are different brands / qualities of the putty. but it will be loaded in compression, which it is pretty good at resisting, so any of them should be ok.
Even car body filler would probably work ok, although the very short time between mixing and hardening may be a challenge, especially in warm weather.
You could use a release agent on the downtube so that the putty does not stick to it, or stretch a single layer of cling-wrap over the surface of the downtube then use release agent.. that makes it certain that the putty cannot stick to the bike.
Snug the bracket up while the putty sets, but don't overtighten it. Don't let the putty go past the widest part of the downtube or it won't pull off after the putty sets.
Using a few layers of cling-wrap would leave a small gap between the putty and frame.. the rubber tool handle compound could then be painted onto the surface of the solidified putty to give more cushioning and grip, if preferred.
That is the way I would do it, whatever the shape of the downtube, as I think it would offer far more support and stability than any generic flat, angled or curved bracket. It would also protect the frame from high point loading, which is important with alloy frames, especially the large-section thin wall tubes used on modern high performance bikes ( not to mention carbon fibre frames!!).
Mike: If you could find someone who is a native (or very competent) Chinese speaker, and is also good in English, and also understands what you are trying to achieve, it might make your dealings with Chinese manufacturers easier. I hope you get it sorted.. it would be so frustrating to get the kit optimized then have to change it again because you couldn't source motors that were identical to the first batch.
As a regular follower of this thread, I am really enjoying watching the kit develop, with the experiences of early adopters triggering ideas from Mike and many others. It's a bit like open source software, developing as the experience and expertise of users is applied to modify and extend the original concept.
I can absolutely understand that some customers were expecting/ hoping to receive a "fully developed" kit that would simply bolt on, but it seems that most understand the development situation and are getting enjoyment from being part of the "development team".
It is a challenging situation for Mike, but with his perseverance and determination to develop the kit properly, The resulting kit is becoming one of the best on the market for those wanting decent performance without losing pedaling efficiency.
Obviously there are different brands / qualities of the putty. but it will be loaded in compression, which it is pretty good at resisting, so any of them should be ok.
Even car body filler would probably work ok, although the very short time between mixing and hardening may be a challenge, especially in warm weather.
You could use a release agent on the downtube so that the putty does not stick to it, or stretch a single layer of cling-wrap over the surface of the downtube then use release agent.. that makes it certain that the putty cannot stick to the bike.
Snug the bracket up while the putty sets, but don't overtighten it. Don't let the putty go past the widest part of the downtube or it won't pull off after the putty sets.
Using a few layers of cling-wrap would leave a small gap between the putty and frame.. the rubber tool handle compound could then be painted onto the surface of the solidified putty to give more cushioning and grip, if preferred.
That is the way I would do it, whatever the shape of the downtube, as I think it would offer far more support and stability than any generic flat, angled or curved bracket. It would also protect the frame from high point loading, which is important with alloy frames, especially the large-section thin wall tubes used on modern high performance bikes ( not to mention carbon fibre frames!!).
Mike: If you could find someone who is a native (or very competent) Chinese speaker, and is also good in English, and also understands what you are trying to achieve, it might make your dealings with Chinese manufacturers easier. I hope you get it sorted.. it would be so frustrating to get the kit optimized then have to change it again because you couldn't source motors that were identical to the first batch.
As a regular follower of this thread, I am really enjoying watching the kit develop, with the experiences of early adopters triggering ideas from Mike and many others. It's a bit like open source software, developing as the experience and expertise of users is applied to modify and extend the original concept.
I can absolutely understand that some customers were expecting/ hoping to receive a "fully developed" kit that would simply bolt on, but it seems that most understand the development situation and are getting enjoyment from being part of the "development team".
It is a challenging situation for Mike, but with his perseverance and determination to develop the kit properly, The resulting kit is becoming one of the best on the market for those wanting decent performance without losing pedaling efficiency.
LightningRods
1 MW
My biggest beef with the Sugru is that the stuff is damned expensive. I was looking at options on Smooth-On's web site and I can get about 20x as much product from Smooth-On for the same money. Plastic wrap seems like a natural for helping the molded material separate from the frame tube after casting. I've added several holes to the flat plate to allow some plastic to seep in and help it get a grip on the plate.
I've heard back from another employee at the motor company. It sounds like they're trying to good cop/bad cop me now. All of these characters may be the same little old man laughing his ass off at my expense. The main point that we are going around on is price FOB Shanghai vs. price CIF Portland. I'm trying to find out what it will cost to get the motors TO Portland and they keep telling me what it will cost to ship FROM Shanghai. Last time around the ship docked in Los Angeles and they trucked the motors to Portland. Since it's about 1,000 miles I need to make sure that truck freight is included this time as well. I've found that it can be expensive to make assumptions.
I've heard back from another employee at the motor company. It sounds like they're trying to good cop/bad cop me now. All of these characters may be the same little old man laughing his ass off at my expense. The main point that we are going around on is price FOB Shanghai vs. price CIF Portland. I'm trying to find out what it will cost to get the motors TO Portland and they keep telling me what it will cost to ship FROM Shanghai. Last time around the ship docked in Los Angeles and they trucked the motors to Portland. Since it's about 1,000 miles I need to make sure that truck freight is included this time as well. I've found that it can be expensive to make assumptions.
It is kind of cool that you are becoming the sort of unofficial supplier in North America for these motors. It is nice that North America can have a source that sells them one at a time without the hassle of minimums, duties and taxes. You should consider starting a professional market place web site to sell these exclusive parts. There are several very easy options to make an online store website that I am sure would increase revenue and simplify your operations. Shopify.com is one example I can think of. It is just a template and you fill in the blanks for what you want to say and what you want to sell.
LightningRods
1 MW
You're totally correct about Shopify and other online marketing. I was looking through Azusa Engineering's catalogue last night and realizing that I have a lot to do in terms of organizing, presenting and promoting the parts that I have available. Just that is a full time job in itself. I spend too much time writing the same e-mail over and over again when I should be referring people to the information online.
I may have a bit of a breather once all of the drawings for new parts are in at various suppliers. The first thing I need to do is to produce some clear instructions for customers so that they don't feel lost and overwhelmed right away when their kit arrives. I've developed internal names for all of the various parts like "upper adjuster plate" and "lower motor bracket". I need to make exploded views of all of these parts with names and numbers. I made my living as a technical illustrator before getting into producing parts so there's no excuse for not providing good documentation.
I may have a bit of a breather once all of the drawings for new parts are in at various suppliers. The first thing I need to do is to produce some clear instructions for customers so that they don't feel lost and overwhelmed right away when their kit arrives. I've developed internal names for all of the various parts like "upper adjuster plate" and "lower motor bracket". I need to make exploded views of all of these parts with names and numbers. I made my living as a technical illustrator before getting into producing parts so there's no excuse for not providing good documentation.
r3volved
100 kW
Thanks Drum, that helps me a lot, I'll use that stuff for sure. Never thought about the rubberized coating but definitely sounds worth investing in.
notger
100 W
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2013
- Messages
- 279
LightningRods said:
Oh, yes, that would be a dream,
I would even be satisfied with a trustworthy and stabile chinese company like "golden motor"
Or for sure a European company in my case.
But i looked at all their motor and the smalles has round 180mm in diameter and no ideal mounting points on both sides.
http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-imgs/HPM3000B Drawing.pdf
this kind of motor we are using seems to be the ultimate chinese rikshaw motor standard "produced" by so many chinese motor manufacturerers, not just Honglida.
i also aked around 10 of them to send me technical drawings or measurement about their motors and most of them vary in rating of watts, width, with/out cooling fan,.........just their general frontside motor plate with their mountig points is always the same
And none of the manufacturers i could get good contact with produce the original gng with the 25mm magnet motors and just 70mm housing width, cause the one that you (Mike) use has 30mm Magnets and around 93mm housing width and the Big Block would have 50mm Magnets and 101 mm housing.
So This 5mm wider Magnet between the "original" GNG and the "LR-Motor" results a 23mm wider housing.
Compared to twice the Magnet width between "original" and "LR-BigBlock" results 31mm wider housing.
Does that mean there is a lot of unused space (but sure, it's cooling surface) for it's 5mm wider Magnets in the "LR-Small Block" Motor compared to the one that GNG is using?
Mike do you actually know where to get the "original" GNG 70mm width Motor ?
Oh my god Do you hear my trauma with talking to chinese dealers out of these lines ?
greets
Notgernot
LightningRods
1 MW
My small block motors are 78mm wide. The big blocks are 102mm wide. Yes the GNG motor has very little air space inside the case compared to all non-GNG motors of this type that I have seen. Most 500 watt motors that you will buy on TaoBao are 73mm wide. I have only seen the GNG motor available from GNG and Conhismotor. Both sellers want between $200 and $225 for those 70mm motors with the terrible built in 14T HTD pulley on the motor shaft. Shipping is on top of the sales price. They obviously don't want to sell just motors.
I'm making some progress with Honglida. I've been passed off to a supervisor who seems to speak decent English. I may buy 200 small blocks and 100 big blocks just so I don't have to go through this again any time soon. Every time I find motors in China I fear it may be my last time.
I'm making some progress with Honglida. I've been passed off to a supervisor who seems to speak decent English. I may buy 200 small blocks and 100 big blocks just so I don't have to go through this again any time soon. Every time I find motors in China I fear it may be my last time.
