Lightweight/discrete Q128c commuter build on a road bike

I think that EM3EV puts much better workmanship into their batteries, and you can't go wrong there.

One thing worth considering is the ease of battery removal. The bottle batteries slide out of the mounting bracket easily, whereas the triangle battery must be unzipped from the bag and disconnected from the leads. This is accomplished more easily if the connectors from battery to controller are inside the bag so you don't have to feed it through. Of course, you could leave the battery in the bag and charge it on the bike if this works for you. You may want to remove the battery from the bag to prevent theft unless you have secure storage at work. Removing the battery will take a bit longer and pose a slightly higher risk of accidentally dropping the battery when removing it. I've dropped my bottle battery twice over the years (and also done a couple laydowns) and now there's stuff rattling around inside - still works though.

Given that you are a strong cyclist with a flat quiet commute and plan for a larger battery, my vote would be for the faster 328RPM@48V. if you want the higher top speed, you'll certainly achieve it with this setup - and you have to ask yourself if you really want the higher top speed. In addition to topography and traffic patterns, this also depends on road quality/smoothness as well as your comfort zone. The only caveat with this setup is that you have to keep your motor RPM above 50% of unloaded on long ascents or you will overheat and burn out the motor. With a faster motor, 50% of top speed is higher and you have less torque on hills, which can compound the problem. If you can't sustain 50% of unloaded speed at full power, it's better to feed minimal power, gear down and grind. Short but steep shouldn't be a problem, as the motor takes time to accumulate heat.

As you are a strong cyclist and your setup will be very light and nimble, you'd only need ~600W motor power to push the 328@48V motor well over the unloaded speed of the slower 201RPM@36V version and you'd likely see 5+ kph gains over that of the slower motor. In theory, the battery you link at 862 Wh would be about 80% depleted should you max out your motor at 600W over your entire commute, but should you limit to 600W on uphill sections and use less on gentle descents,your usage would be likely be considerably less. The lower speed setup will always be much more efficient in terms of power required.

According to the sims with a 328RPM@48V motor with ~600W motor power using 52V battery, I think you'd likely get:
42 kph with 100W human power added sitting upright
44 kph with 200W human power sitting upright
47 kph with 200W human power tucked position

Even with 500W motor power, you'd still go faster with the faster wind motor. I'm guessing that the break even point for slower vs faster motor (assuming 100W human power, and I'm guessing) would be around 400W motor power. My initial concerns were that you wouldn't have enough battery power with the smaller 11.5Ah bottle to take advantage of a faster motor, but if you go with the EM3EV 862 Wh battery, you should be fine.

Here's some thoughts on the battery: Your battery will last longer if you limit discharge to 30% of empty. Longest life (possibly double in terms of discharge cycles) can be achieved by charging to 90% and limiting discharge to 30% of empty. Of note, most EM3EV chargers have three charge settings; 100% charge, 90% charge for longevity and 50% for storage charge.
 
FWIW I measured the unloaded RPM of my Q100C in the 328 RPM fast wind this morning:

  • Battery voltage (resting)- 49.2v
  • Unloaded RPM- 458

That lines up pretty well with the simulator prediction:
Q100C-unloaded 458 RPM.jpg

I echo molybendum's recommendation for the faster wind motor. I have a hunch you would be disappointed with the slower winds "revving out" at too slow of a speed. You will definitely have more margin on power with the Q128C versus the Q100.

Good call on the em3ev battery, Paul @ em3ev puts together some quality stuff. Moly's suggestions on the charge/discharge cushions are spot on. There is a very strong correlation between limiting depth of discharge and total cycle life of lithium packs of all chemistries.

Good on you for giving all this some thought and research! This is way more fun and satisfying that just buying a turnkey ebike, right? :lol:
 
I figured I'd toss my build into the simulator also for comparison. I did two sets: one with no pedal assist, and one with what I'm guessing is my max pedal assist. I found the speeds shown in the simulator to be very close to what I've observed in the real world.
no-pedaling.jpg
full-pedaling.jpg

I used custom battery and controller settings to closely match what I actually have.
 
II would note that the motors simulated by MonkeyWrench and zro-1 are the 328RPM@36V, and will spin close to 455RPM when provided 52V. I previously advised against this in 700c wheel earlier as the 50% unloaded speed of 23 kph would make it apt to overheat during normal use - It does seem this setup could work quite well for a strong cyclist with long flat stretches and no brutal hills. I would be interested to hear more about how and in what road conditions these very high speed motors are actually being used.

For completeness, I've included a sim of the Eeze 250RPM, which some say is a close approximation of the Q128c 260RPM@36V, which would be expected to spin 328RPM when provided 48V. Note the unloaded speed of 53 kph, but more importantly, note the speed where the motor ceases to provide maximum wattage (where the red line starts to descend) at around 46 kph (when fed 52V). At greater speeds, the motor would sharply reduce amp draw as it approaches the unloaded speed, where it would be zero. In my situation, I frequently pedal the bike on gentle descents to speeds where my LCD3 indicates 0W under WOT, and I have exceeded the unloaded speed of the motor.

Eeze 250 at 52V, 14A (600W) + 100W human power:
Edit: I just realized I didn't include the specs in the image :oops: The amps are set to 14, as I would likely do if I were aiming for around 600W. I use 35c tires in a 700c wheel. This has nearly identical diameter as a 2" MTB tire in a 26 inch wheel; hence, I chose 26 inch for the sim.
Eeze 250.jpg
 
The 23 kph (about 14 mph) you mentioned is an easy cruise speed for a moderately fit cyclist riding a skinny tired road bike riding unassisted on the hoods. So I assume it is pretty easy for moderately fit riders to stay above this speed unless they happen to be on an extended uphill section or against a moderately strong headwind. I can see how a fast wind motor would be very complementary for someone who is more than moderately fit and likes riding a road bike quickly. That said, and given that I have some moderately steep hills to deal with, I might go with a slower wind if I ever put one of these on my road bike.
 
molybdenum said:
I would be interested to hear more about how and in what road conditions these very high speed motors are actually being used.

Hi molybdenum-

I use the bike on moderately flat to slightly hilly conditions in and around Seattle. There are a few pretty steep hills on my normal route but they are short and I'm out of the saddle pedaling hard for those. I pedal 100% of the time and usually at or just under my personal sustainable output. That is typically 150-200W of leg power.

Regarding motor usage I predominantly give the thumb throttle just a tickle over and above my normal cruise speed to boost the speed higher than I can sustain on my own. This means for most of the pack probably 75-85% (?). As the pack winds down on voltage and I want to hit 30ish mph it needs 100% throttle. Going home I have 5 miles of open street riding where the car speeds are 35+ mph. I usually flog it at 100% throttle and pedal hard to keep my speed in the high 20s- low 30s mph. I also use 85%-100% throttle on acceleration from a stop (with pedaling). I have at least 15 stops or pauses on my 16 mile route.

The routes are either city/suburban streets with or without bike lane, or shared use cycle/pedestrian paths. For the shared use stuff I always slow down to "normal" cyclist speeds when encountering pedestrians, but otherwise cruise around 24-27 mph. For the open street routes I try and keep the speeds up to the higher end of the range to minimize interactions with passing cars. For the tighter city streets I have to slow down to watch for cross traffic at intersections and have lots of stops for stop signs, lights, crossing major arterials, etc. In those cases I give the motor a good burst of power to get me back up to speed quicker than an unassisted bike.

Here is one of my favorite routes to work. The long segment next to the lake and continuing all the way to the destination is a shared use path, the Burke-Gilman trail for those familiar with Seattle area. It was an old rail line that was converted under the "rails to trails" program. Very nice path that avoids major vehicle traffic interaction (for the most part). The segment north of the lake is open street riding, some of which has a bike lane.

Long ride in.jpg

Here is a comparison of speeds on my more normal route home. I overlayed a ride I did unassisted with a powered ride. The elevation over the route is in the background. The GPS speeds didn't sync up perfectly but you can see how the assisted speed trace bumps my cruising speeds, particularly at the end of the ride (right side of plot) where I get the advantage of the e-boost. At the start of the ride I'm in dense city streets and the ebike doesn't really get to stretch it's legs (but still noticeably quicker off the line and up the minor hills!).

Ride Home Speed Comparison.jpg
 
Compared to MonkeyWrench's commute, I guess where I live I should call it Flatlanta. I really only have one truly steep climb that hits 19.5% grade, but other than that, it's pretty flat.

commute.jpg
 
MonkeyWrench said:
Hi molybdenum-

I use the bike on moderately flat to slightly hilly conditions in and around Seattle. There are a few pretty steep hills on my normal route but they are short and I'm out of the saddle pedaling hard for those. I pedal 100% of the time and usually at or just under my personal sustainable output. That is typically 150-200W of leg power. <snip>

Thanks for the overview. That gives me food for though. My elevation difference is about 800 ft over the same distance as compared to your elevation difference of about 400 ft. A lower RPM motor is probably more sensible for the road bike build I'm considering.
 
MonkeyWrench said:
I use the bike on moderately flat to slightly hilly conditions in and around Seattle. There are a few pretty steep hills on my normal route but they are short and I'm out of the saddle pedaling hard for those. I pedal 100% of the time and usually at or just under my personal sustainable output. That is typically 150-200W of leg power.

Regarding motor usage I predominantly give the thumb throttle just a tickle over and above my normal cruise speed to boost the speed higher than I can sustain on my own. This means for most of the pack probably 75-85% (?). As the pack winds down on voltage and I want to hit 30ish mph it needs 100% throttle. Going home I have 5 miles of open street riding where the car speeds are 35+ mph. I usually flog it at 100% throttle and pedal hard to keep my speed in the high 20s- low 30s mph. I also use 85%-100% throttle on acceleration from a stop (with pedaling). I have at least 15 stops or pauses on my 16 mile route.

Thanks for the info; this will be of tremendous help for those struggling to decide which motor to choose. It's amazing how much a fit cyclist can get from these motors on an efficient bike with skinny tires. The area between 6 and 8 miles has an elevation change of 400 ft, which would have an average grade of 3.8% - not exactly fun on the way up!

I can see that our ideas and goals for these builds are quite similar, and looking at my work route and aside for the 40+ stops, I can't see any major dealbreakers that would rule out a faster motor. I plan on ordering the Q128 328RPM@48V in the near future and try it out. I'll definitely map the two motors and compare.


For the cost, I may get in a 328RPM Q100c and put it in a road bike to play around with. With small lipo backpack batt or mighty mini, no one would know it's electric.

zro-1 said:
Compared to MonkeyWrench's commute, I guess where I live I should call it Flatlanta. I really only have one truly steep climb that hits 19.5% grade, but other than that, it's pretty flat.

Looking at your route, I'm guessing that most of the stops are in the first third of your journey? Amazingly flat except for the 19.5%s -
that's steep, so I hope its not for too long!
 
molybdenum said:
II would note that the motors simulated by MonkeyWrench and zro-1 are the 328RPM@36V, and will spin close to 455RPM when provided 52V. I previously advised against this in 700c wheel earlier as the 50% unloaded speed of 23 kph would make it apt to overheat during normal use - It does seem this setup could work quite well for a strong cyclist with long flat stretches and no brutal hills. I would be interested to hear more about how and in what road conditions these very high speed motors are actually being used.

Thanks again for all the input, it is all appreciated.

I'm now settling on the 328RPM@36V q100c paired with a 48v battery or a 52v battery (unloaded rpm of 455 with 50% unloaded speed of 23kph) from em3ev. Looking back over my ride data I'm confident I can keep the bike over 23kph for 90+% of the ride, so it shouldn't overheat.

Just in case though I'm also going to buy a 328RPM@48V q128c just in case I do burn the motor out and I need a plan B!

Battery wise I'm probably going to get a 52v 721Wh em3ev battery in a hard waterproof rectangular case, mounted in a triangle bag (work is pretty secure so will take a chance and leave the battery on the bike - several other people already doing this). This is $400USD with the bag. https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s5p-rectangle-battery-pack/?currency=USD
 
For the cost, I may get in a 328RPM Q100c and put it in a road bike to play around with. With small lipo backpack batt or mighty mini, no one would know it's electric.
I have one in the For Sale section;
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84796&p=1250004&hilit=q100c#p1250004
 
So bits and pieces have been arriving in the mail, specifically the q100c 328rpm 36v motor, s12 controller etc. I'd read that ordering the motor built into a wheel from bmsbattery could be hit and miss so instead I got a local place to build a wheel, and since I wanted to avoid flats I've also gone tubeless.

So right now I have a $100 motor in a $400 wheel (inc labor) with a $100 tyre ready to go, just waiting on the battery. Hopefully spending a bit extra on quality saves hassle down the road, but I'd be lying if I said the price of the whole endeavour isn't stinging a bit. But the whole conversion will pay for itself after 11 months of commuting (or 5000kms), so when you think about it in those terms it isn't an outrageous waste of money!

Next post will hopefully have some pics of the final build :)
 
Here's hoping the shop you're dealing with is worth the shekels. At my shop, the labor for a wheel build is $50. Good rims start at about $35.

Tubeless tires mean messing with them as much as if you had lots of punctures, but having to do it whether or not you get any punctures. Also, tube swaps are tidy while tubeless crud cleanouts are a cottage-cheese-plus-Elmer's-glue horror show. Enjoy. Don't be that guy who pays somebody else to change your diaper for you. Own it.
 
Everything is more expensive in Australia for various reasons. I probably could have saved $150 with a cheaper rim and thinner spokes, but I went with the advice of the shop. I think next time I'll have a go of building it myself, but this time I paid the premium for a professionals work and a guarantee.

Thanks for the thoughts on tubeless, I hadn't fully appreciated the maintenance and care tubeless tyres require. I think I'll just trial my non-tubeless setup before setting it all up as tubeless.
 
I went DIY tubeless on my 2 WD a couple of years ago and so far, all is good. Admittingly, it took several tries to get them just right.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71203&p=1076342&hilit=tubeless#p1076342
My most recent set-up is Crazy Bobs run tubeless and these days, I've got the mounting procedure down to about 1/2 hour.
I'm not sure what the "extra maintenance" reference is to, because once installed, there is little difference than a tubed type tire. I do have to add some Stans twice a year, but the tire doesn't lose any more pressure that a tubed tire.
I think the key to making it work is a sm. bicycle dedicated plug kit like this one;
https://www.amazon.com/Dynaplug-CARBON-ULTRALITE-Bicycle-Puncture/dp/B017BYKGTC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1524577222&sr=8-7&keywords=bicycle+tire+plug+kit
W/ a Co2 cartridge, roadside repairs are quite doable.
 
The manufacturers of the sealant recommend checking it every week, and some say it should be replaced as often as every three months in hot climates. Since I haven't had a flat for months with a tube setup and the tyres I can get locally are cheaper I'll stick with tubes for now.
 
The tubeless sealant stuff curdles and needs to be replaced more often than I ever get flats. And it's really gross.

The colloquialism for tubeless curds is "Stanimals".
https://www.google.com/search?q=stanimals&tbm=isch
 
So I have started putting it all together.

First hitch: do I file out the (aluminium) dropouts to get the axle to sit all the way down? At present there is a ~1mm gap at the top/arch/crescent of each dropout with the axle. Pics attached.

My hunch is the off side is sitting deep enough that it will be ok. The derailleur side doesn't look so good, and even with torque arms on both sides I am worried it may work its way up and out.

Just to be clear, I will be using two torque arms.



Any thoughts appreciated!
 
Looks to me like you only need to contour the bottom (Top) of the drop-out to conform to the axle.
 
Yes that did the trick!

Unfortunately my battery/controller mounting plan and my backup plan haven't panned out satisfactorily. I think I will be buying a rear rack now.
 
Ok so everything is now installed and working based on a test ride.

Now though I can hear a faint clicking sound or 'tic' sound when the wheel rotates. It is happening only once a rotation, and independently of whether I'm coasting, peddling, running the motor, and with or without weight on the wheel. That makes me think it is something to do with the hub. Lastly it didn't manifest itself immediately, only after a short test ride.

I don't want to ride it until I'm sure it's not a problem, but I'm unsure how to diagnose and fix it. Once again any suggestions would be appreciated!
 
ModeratelyFastF said:
I don't want to ride it until I'm sure it's not a problem, but I'm unsure how to diagnose and fix it. Once again any suggestions would be appreciated!

Try removing the freewheel and running it without that. Also, look around the bike for anything that could be hitting the tire or spokes etc. I don't really believe that is the problem, but it always pays to double check everything else before the next step which is to open the motor. One more thing to try before opening but after removing the chain and freewheel is to rotate the wheel by hand in both directions and see if you can feel the click.

Unfortunately, it does sound like something internal. My Bafang SWXU makes a noise similar to that but several times per rotation when it cracks a planet gear. In your case seems to happen once per rotation under drive or not, so maybe it's the ring gear or the clutch or a bearing, but probably not the electrical part of the motor. Might be something simple like a bit of zip tie or insulation that fell in during assembly. I don't think you should ride it before figuring it out.
 
Thanks heaps for the reply. It's nothing external contacting the wheel, but it could be a piece of debris somewhere around the cassette (best case scenario!). I suppose there's a fair chance the fault is inside the motor case, so I suppose I better do some research on disassembling it..

It's so frustrating! Just when I'd packed away my tools to!

I'll start pulling it all apart next week I guess.
 
So pulling the wheel out and taking the cassette off led to the noise disappearing when I spun it, so I put it back all together. When I only did the axle nuts up loosely there was no click. When I tightened them right up however the click came back! Loosening off one nut (hand tight still) led to the click disappearing.

Also, listening carefully it seems as if the click is being generated in the frame rather than the motor. So now I'm wondering if perhaps the axle is ever so slightly bent, and that when I tighten the nuts right up a slight wobble/flex/oscillation or something is leading to a creak/click in the frame.

Another theory: perhaps when I tighten the nuts up really tight it's pulling the axle outwards and out of alignment?

Once again, any theories appreciated!
 
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