Lithium Battery Reports & Tests' 9/08

[BMI]

Will BMI be consulting with A123-Systems anytime soon?

Seems the best they can do for internal impedance is 8 milliohms (1kHz) for their 26550 cells when new and about 15mΩ when cycled (acording to Argonne Labs).

I think that is a typo Andy and you actually mean 26650 and not 26550?

For people who may have missed the photos earlier if you scroll back to the bottom of page 8 of this thread you will see some photos I took of the cells and their relative impedance measurements.
I measured 8.91 milliohms for the new A123 cell which is pretty close to the published spec of 8 millioms typical by A123 Systems.
As the photo shows the BMI cell measured out at a mere 2.75 milliohms (1kHz). All of the cells in this tray were very close to this reading with none over 3 milliohms.

 

[AndyH]

Will BMI be consulting with A123-Systems anytime soon?

Seems the best they can do for internal impedance is 8 milliohms (1kHz) for their 26550 cells when new and about 15mΩ when cycled (acording to Argonne Labs).

I think that is a typo Andy and you actually mean 26650 and not 26550?

Roj - thanks. Typo on the cell size.

Bottom line - how can you explain that you've been able to achieve such a low number when the recognized leader in LiFePo4 cells - with significantly higher C rates and very low voltage drops - is shipping cells that have an AC impedance of 8-15mΩ?

 

[AndyH]

...He says his old products are inferior but he will not sell you the new ones. ..

Does LiFeBatt not sell HPS packs?

 

[BMI]

...He says his old products are inferior but he will not sell you the new ones. ..

Does LiFeBatt not sell HPS packs?

Bob is talking about the loose cells. Don Harmon (Lifebatt) states that they do not sell loose cells. Of course they supply HPS packs. That is what their cells are made for- to be manufactured into HPS packs.

BMI supply HPS packs AND loose cells in any qty.

 

[BMI]

Will BMI be consulting with A123-Systems anytime soon?

Seems the best they can do for internal impedance is 8 milliohms (1kHz) for their 26550 cells when new and about 15mΩ when cycled (acording to Argonne Labs).

I think that is a typo Andy and you actually mean 26650 and not 26550?

Roj - thanks. Typo on the cell size.

Bottom line - how can you explain that you've been able to achieve such a low number when the recognized leader in LiFePo4 cells - with significantly higher C rates and very low voltage drops - is shipping cells that have an AC impedance of 8-15mΩ?

I have my reasons. I dispute your claim when you say "the recognised leader in LiFePO4 cells". It depends on what exactly you mean when you use the term "leader".
I understand you are a very analytical person Andy (which is good) and don't believe what other people say/testimonials etc. The bottom line is there is no need to believe anything I say. Feel free to purchase a few cells and perform your own tests and then you can decide for yourself where the truth lies. In fact I am sure your "neighbour" mcstar probably still has some BMI cells in stock and I understand Bob Mcree may decide to order in a shipment for the USA in the near future for building into his own e-bike packs since he is looking to build some very high quality battery packs for his e-bike customers.

Very recently I had a customer from Japan who was much like yourself and very sceptical of the performance claims of the cells. I believe this customer is a member of this forum. He decided to purchase a loose cell to perform his own tests. He got back to me a short time later saying he was very pleased with his test results. As a result he has purchased a very large 48V pack for his electric scooter. It is the largest 48V battery BMI make (48V30Ah). He also purchased the top of the line fully automatic charger. The battery/charger is on its way now and sceduled to arrive in Japan on Monday. I have asked the customer if he wouldn't mind providing some feedback as to the performance of the battery in his scooter when he has had some time to test the actual on road performance.
He also told me he was happy to pay the higher price since a major priority was to buy a top quality product with great performance and is very pleased with the service and support I have provided in answering all his questions along the way.
He may decide to post some pictures, results or other comments on this forum but this is a decision for him and has nothing to do with me.
I have only asked this customer if he would do two things-
1) if he is happy with the product and service/support provided to "tell the world", and
2) if he is not happy with the product and service to "tell the world"

Time will tell and we will see if he comes back with either 1) or 2) :|

 

[liveforphysics]

...He says his old products are inferior but he will not sell you the new ones. ..

Does LiFeBatt not sell HPS packs?

AndyH- I can answer this simple question for you. Ri is meaningless to compare with out making it specific to capacity. To compare cells, you need to compare specific capacity, otherwise you are compareing meaningless numbers.

For example, a 2.3Ah A123 cell with 8mOhm of Ri has a specific Ri of 18.4mOhm/Ah.

A 10Ah cell with an Ri of 3mOhm has a specific Ri of 30mOhm/Ah. (well off from A123 M1 cells).
A 10Ah cell with an Ri of 2mOhm has a specific Ri of 20mOhm/Ah. (very close to A123 performance, and impressive for a large format cell).

The specific Ri number gives you a value you can use to predict and compare the performance of a given capacity pack.

I'm not sure what you are looking for, but if you are seeking a battery with better performance (very high power appliction perhaps?), may I recomend LiCo Li-Polymer. They are available with 2.8mOhm/ 5Ah cell, yeilding a specific Ri of 14mOhm/Ah. About double the energy density as well, but of course saftey issues that may or may not apply to your appliction.

 

[BMI]

...He says his old products are inferior but he will not sell you the new ones. ..

Does LiFeBatt not sell HPS packs?

AndyH- I can answer this simple question for you. Ri is meaningless to compare with out making it specific to capacity. To compare cells, you need to compare specific capacity, otherwise you are compareing meaningless numbers.

For example, a 2.3Ah A123 cell with 8mOhm of Ri has a specific Ri of 18.4mOhm/Ah.

A 10Ah cell with an Ri of 3mOhm has a specific Ri of 30mOhm/Ah. (well off from A123 M1 cells).
A 10Ah cell with an Ri of 2mOhm has a specific Ri of 20mOhm/Ah. (very close to A123 performance, and impressive for a large format cell).

The specific Ri number gives you a value you can use to predict and compare the performance of a given capacity pack.

I'm not sure what you are looking for, but if you are seeking a battery with better performance (very high power appliction perhaps?), may I recomend LiCo Li-Polymer. They are available with 2.8mOhm/ 5Ah cell, yeilding a specific Ri of 14mOhm/Ah. About double the energy density as well, but of course saftey issues that may or may not apply to your appliction.

All good points. It comes down to if you choose to use Li-Co/Po and you are willing to take the risk of.........



.....Something which absolutely cannot happen with safe LiFePO4.

 

[liveforphysics]

That isn't a LiPo fire. Unless LiPo can make bikes combine into a pile with a motorcycle and be lit on fire. Looks like the street the morning after an asian riot.

I've seen A123 burn an RC helicopter to the ground, and I've seen the pics of an E-car conversion that was LiFePO4 and burned to the ground from a fire.

Any battery can burn up.

But, LiCo is of course much more likely as it's chemical process has more exothermic chemical potential than endothermic energy potential, so it's capable of a non-electricly assisted thermal run-away.

LiCoMn and LiFePO4 both have greater endothermic potential than exothermic potential, so they are free from the risk of non-electrically assisted thermal run-away.

No batery is safe from electricly assisted thermal run-away, but LiCo definately has the additional chemical risk that makes it a poor choice for most applications, but perfect for certian high performance applications.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

 

[RoughRider]

thats what i mean...

i have nothing against BMI...

but, by posting pictures like that, you are just trying to fool people...and thats NOT OK at all...

i understand your buisnessmodel...better service higher price...its all good and i wish you good buisness...

but please stop fooling people by posting pictures like that one...

just be honest...you have a good product...but there are other good or better products out there...

 

[BMI]

thats what i mean...

i have nothing against BMI...

but, by posting pictures like that, you are just trying to fool people...and thats NOT OK at all...

i understand your buisnessmodel...better service higher price...its all good and i wish you good buisness...

but please stop fooling people by posting pictures like that one...

just be honest...you have a good product...but there are other good or better products out there...

RoughRider, I am not trying to fool anyone and to get the facts straight I didn't post the photo on the forum. Someone else posted it on another thread and I just copied it across. The photo originally had the words "Li-Po fire" at the bottom but I have no idea of the origins of the picture. In fact I tend to go along with liveforphysics and think it is more likely this is a Li-Co fire rather than Li-Po. Li-Po tends to make alot more smoke and for others who haven't seen this already this is more of what a typical Li-Po fire looks like-
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-1086364983225733633&ei=HSauSY2NCIKywgOP8_CnDg&q=mon+v%C3%A9lo+part&hl=fr

As for the A123 fires I am almost certain these were "electrical" fires" rather than "chemical fires" (attributed to the chemical composition of the battery) so the A123 cells didn't burn because the LiFePo4 caught on fire but rather because of excessive discharge current (or short circuit) causing severe overheating of wires/insulation and surrounding flammable materials. A couple of the EV fires have started due to poor spot welds on the A123 cells which have fatigued over time resulting in less/smaller contact area where the battery tab is in contact with the cell which has caused excessive heating at the joints and ending up in a fire.
If you are going to be dragging more than 100amp peaks from such a small cell you want to make sure you have really good spot welds and preferably lots of them!

 

[TestPilot]

This is how BMI treat potential customers?

Followed top search link for "Battery Manufacturers International Corporation", used Contact Us page, and my email is not good enough for you company?

What a waste of time :x

 

[BMI]

This is how BMI treat potential customers?

Followed top search link for "Battery Manufacturers International Corporation", used Contact Us page, and my email is not good enough for you company?

What a waste of time :x

Dear TestPilot, I am very sorry for this problem but please understand it is not my fault and I was not aware you have tried (unsucessfully) to send me an email. (If I can't receive an email from a potential customer I can't respond and if I don't know that an email was sent to me then it is hardly my fault).

I have had a few problems recently with a couple of ISP's in the US. For some reason I did not receive your email and recently when I have sent emails to a few customers in the US (who use Comcast in particular) my emails have been rejected by Comcast and thus the customer thinks I have been ignoring them and not replying. The email doesn't even make it to the spam folder. It gets completely rejected. Please let it be known that I reply as promptly as I can to ALL emails I receive but if I do not receive an email due to circumstances beyond my control it is hardly my fault. I have complained to Comcast about this situation but there seems to be a problem with your ISP also. Please try to email me again and if the message gets rejected let me know so I can chase up the cause and get the fault rectified.

Once again I apologise for this situation.

 

[liveforphysics]

The photo originally had the words "Li-Po fire" at the bottom but I have no idea of the origins of the picture. In fact I tend to go along with liveforphysics and think it is more likely this is a Li-Co fire rather than Li-Po. Li-Po tends to make alot more smoke and for others who haven't seen this already this is more of what a typical Li-Po fire looks like-
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-1086364983225733633&ei=HSauSY2NCIKywgOP8_CnDg&q=mon+v%C3%A9lo+part&hl=fr

I've burned LiCo Batteries, both 18650 cells and prismatic polymer cells. Absolutely none of them make the distinct dark carbon soot that is created by burning some hydrocarbon. No battery chemistry, no matter how dangerous, is able to pile up bikes onto a motorcycle and light the the motorcycle's gas tank. If you take a look at the street, nearly empty, with debris, over turned bikes, broken sign posts, broken pieces of things, you can see it's intentional damage you are looking at. That guy seems to be throwing another bicycle onto his bicycle bon-fire he has going there. The dark soot on the ground is more signs of burning tires and other hydrocarbons, as Lithium packs off gas a white smoke, and sometimes leave white Lithium Oxide salty powder around them.

The video you linked looks exactly like when a prismatic LiFePO4 LiPo pouch cell type pack, like a ping battery is electrically shorted. If it were LiCo, it would either pop the cell tabs like fuses (happens most often in a short situation) or it would burst into flames.

 

[liveforphysics]

As for the A123 fires I am almost certain these were "electrical" fires" rather than "chemical fires" (attributed to the chemical composition of the battery) so the A123 cells didn't burn because the LiFePo4 caught on fire but rather because of excessive discharge current (or short circuit) causing severe overheating of wires/insulation and surrounding flammable materials. A couple of the EV fires have started due to poor spot welds on the A123 cells which have fatigued over time resulting in less/smaller contact area where the battery tab is in contact with the cell which has caused excessive heating at the joints and ending up in a fire.
If you are going to be dragging more than 100amp peaks from such a small cell you want to make sure you have really good spot welds and preferably lots of them!

LiFePO4 can fail and burn like anything else. It was extensively proven during the Chev Volt torture testing with A123 cells, both 10Ah cylinder types (yes those exist) and 40Ah pouch type. The most safe chemistry tested was LiMnCo, which has a hard time doing much more than hiss and smoke a bit, no matter what sorts of cruel things you do like crush or stab metal rods through them or overcharge to 20v/cell. The A123 cells would burst into flames when you stabed into them, or when over charged to extreme levels.

You can read about some LiFePO4 battery fires that happened during charging.

Here is a LiFePO4 powered car:
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1825

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=772399

Here is a little 15s2p A123 LiFePO4 pack in an RC helicopter that was set to charge at 4.5amps with a 3.6v cut-off.

There are many more references, but I don't want to side track this topic, so I will drop it Any battery can burn, and not just during high current discharge or from electrical connection failure. Just takes the right conditions.

 

[voicecoils]

This is how BMI treat potential customers?

That's a bit over the top. I'm more interested in Headway cells than PSI/BMI/LiFeBATT since that's what I'm using in my EV projects, however Armin aka E-S member BMI has shown a lot of patience on this forum.

You could hardly ask for more transparency in the contact info, just see the 'contact us' page on his website. A landline phone number, mobile number, Australian Business Number (ABN) and electrician number are all listed on the page. Email sometimes stuffs up but it's hardly a reason to have a hissy fit until you've tried all the other contact options! The contact info on the lithbattoz website give the impression that the business is a one man operation, which is even more reason to cut Armin @ lithbattoz some slack.

@BMI/lithbattoz/Armin
Grab yourself a Gmail account and save yourself a lot of headaches! All your current email addresses can easily route to it and you won't find mail bouncing anymore.

I'd also like to know what "Battery Manufacturer's International" and the 'BMI Group' actually are? Is there a website for the actual cell producer in Taiwan if that's where they are currently made?

 

[BMI]

This is how BMI treat potential customers?

That's a bit over the top. I'm more interested in Headway cells than PSI/BMI/LiFeBATT since that's what I'm using in my EV projects, however Armin aka E-S member BMI has shown a lot of patience on this forum.

You could hardly ask for more transparency in the contact info, just see the 'contact us' page on his website. A landline phone number, mobile number, Australian Business Number (ABN) and electrician number are all listed on the page. Email sometimes stuffs up but it's hardly a reason to have a hissy fit until you've tried all the other contact options! The contact info on the lithbattoz website give the impression that the business is a one man operation, which is even more reason to cut Armin @ lithbattoz some slack.

@BMI/lithbattoz/Armin
Grab yourself a Gmail account and save yourself a lot of headaches! All your current email addresses can easily route to it and you won't find mail bouncing anymore.

I'd also like to know what "Battery Manufacturer's International" and the 'BMI Group' actually are? Is there a website for the actual cell producer in Taiwan if that's where they are currently made?

Thanks for your "voice of reason" voicecoils. Lack of communication (and that includes emails) can be such as large problem leading to conflict and often one party is left feeling frustrated while the other party has no idea there is a problem. I have been on both sides myself. I just do the best I can and am as honest as I can with everyone but I realise you can please some of the people all of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. That is just the way of the world.

If email fails I do have contact numbers so people can always call me and if one email address fails do as voicecoils suggests and get a gmail account. The customer in the US who I had great communications difficulties with (thanks Comcast) I finally was able to email via the customers wife's hotmail account. So there are ways and means around a situation if you fail the first time.

Yes, all the technical enquiries and sales quotes I look after myself since I am the one who has all the information and knows the answers (most of the time). Luckily I have backup for installations and commissioning of projects from a group of contractors (electricians/solar power installers, etc) who I have known and trust through my time working in the battery industry. I have tried to appoint a couple of lead acid battery suppliers as distributors but they don't want to learn the technical aspects of the batteries and just want a product like a "dumb" block of lead which can sit on a shelf in a warehouse and they ship it out to a customer and never hear back from the customer again. I have found from experience it is better to do things myself and get it right. The old saying is so true "if you want it done right the first time then do it yourself"- so that is exactly what I do.
I try to keep all overheads as low as possible so as to keep the price of the batteries as low as possible also. People often whinge and complain about the price of BMI batteries with out understanding there is a very small margin in the sale of these batteries from the cost of manufacture. It is certainly nothing like the good old days when I was in the lead acid battery industry with often 100% profit margin on SLA batteries. If only it could be like that with LiFePO4 batteries (I wish) but unless you see the factory where they are made and how they are made and the massive multi-million dollar investment in equipment to set up a manufacturing plant it is easy to criticise the cost of the batteries. There is no benefit is keeping the prices high if they are able to be reduced. If we could reduce the price of the batteries we would sell far more product but there is no point in selling at prices under the cost of manufacture or else we soon go out of business.

BMI is made up of a group of Hong Kong investors who have put much of the money into building the factory. As mentioned previously it is a jointly operated factory with Lifebatt but we are not related and operate separate businesses.
The factory supplies the product to its master distributors who sell the product and these distributors have their own websites to serve the market where they operate eg, my BMI website and Don Harmon's website for Lifebatt USA, and his other distributors and their websites for their own countries.

 

[AndyH]

...He says his old products are inferior but he will not sell you the new ones. ..

Does LiFeBatt not sell HPS packs?

Bob is talking about the loose cells. Don Harmon (Lifebatt) states that they do not sell loose cells. Of course they supply HPS packs. That is what their cells are made for- to be manufactured into HPS packs.

BMI supply HPS packs AND loose cells in any qty.

Take a break from the hard-core selling for a moment, ok?

Of COURSE they sell HPS packs! And because the HPS pack is filled with their loose cells, one can acquire LiFeBatt loose cells from LiFeBatt USA.

 

[BMI]

As for the A123 fires I am almost certain these were "electrical" fires" rather than "chemical fires" (attributed to the chemical composition of the battery) so the A123 cells didn't burn because the LiFePo4 caught on fire but rather because of excessive discharge current (or short circuit) causing severe overheating of wires/insulation and surrounding flammable materials. A couple of the EV fires have started due to poor spot welds on the A123 cells which have fatigued over time resulting in less/smaller contact area where the battery tab is in contact with the cell which has caused excessive heating at the joints and ending up in a fire.
If you are going to be dragging more than 100amp peaks from such a small cell you want to make sure you have really good spot welds and preferably lots of them!

LiFePO4 can fail and burn like anything else. It was extensively proven during the Chev Volt torture testing with A123 cells, both 10Ah cylinder types (yes those exist) and 40Ah pouch type. The most safe chemistry tested was LiMnCo, which has a hard time doing much more than hiss and smoke a bit, no matter what sorts of cruel things you do like crush or stab metal rods through them or overcharge to 20v/cell. The A123 cells would burst into flames when you stabed into them, or when over charged to extreme levels.

You can read about some LiFePO4 battery fires that happened during charging.

Here is a LiFePO4 powered car:
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1825

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=772399

Here is a little 15s2p A123 LiFePO4 pack in an RC helicopter that was set to charge at 4.5amps with a 3.6v cut-off.

There are many more references, but I don't want to side track this topic, so I will drop it Any battery can burn, and not just during high current discharge or from electrical connection failure. Just takes the right conditions.

I don't want to side track this topic either but I totally disagree.
These fires were caused by an electrical problem being the source/cause of the problem and not the LiFePO4 itself catching on fire.
In the UK car fire (you have pointed out above)the owner even says-
"When I tipped the car on its side the contents of the left rear box fell out, the rest remained intact. Sifting through the remains I realized that the BMS circuit boards, one mounted on each cell, had been disintegrated at this battery box. The BMS boards at the rest of the boxes, while destroyed, were still intact. So it seems that the fire started here and burned the hottest at this box"

My belief is that the BMS or charger was the cause of the fire.
I am aware of a very similar situation of an EV here in Australia in Melbourne which caught on fire in a similar way. The professionally converted vehicle containing Thundersky batteries caught on fire while the battery was on charge overnight in the owners garage resulting in the car and garage going up in flames. The lady who owned the car had said the batteries were being charged at the time the fire occured. My belief is that it was either a BMS fault or charger fault which caused the fire and not the actual LiFePO4 batteries themselves which were the ignition source.

I could provide much more evidence and examples also why the LiFePO4 batteries are safe and are not the cause of such fires but I don't want to tie this thread up. Perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss this further if people want to go into this in more detail.

 

[liveforphysics]

If you wish to see an LiFePO4 cell catch fire and burn, it's quite simple. There are a few ways to do it. Increase cell voltage continually until the electrolyte insulation voltage is exceeded. This often results in an exciting burst of flames right from the cell. You can also cleave into them with a good conductor, like a scrap of aluminum, and they will either make a ton of heat and smoke, or burst into flames. In these cases where the batteries failed during charging, I agree that something went wrong during the charge process, and a cell got over volted until it burst into flames. This is also the #1 way the LiCo cells have an exciting failure. Even lead acid can burn up and catch fire and make an awful and dangerous mess if you keep increasing cell voltage.

No battery is safe. Some are just more safe than others. LiMnCo is the most safe.

But, enough of this talk, let's get back on subject.

 

[miro13car]

I am also in Canada, Alberta like you/Toronto/ and I never had problem with sending e-mails to Armin.
Tens of e-mails. Close to 50 of them.
I couldn`t agree more with above post, how much more contact do you need.
Yes, it first might appear he ignored it, but he did NOT.
He did NOT receved your e-mail.

Problem is with your ISP and with or e-mail account.
Yes, like he wrote above, get yourself Gmail account .
I say get yourself Yahoo.ca e-mail account and you will not have problems.
Yes Yahoo rejects but for obvious reasons like misspelling address not for "bad reputation.."
MC

 

[John in CR]

LiMnCo is the most safe.

Isn't that what my little green Sony Konions are? Safest and cheapest (after dismissing lead due to the weight) says it all in my book. I should get a couple of years out of the 5kwh+ that I have, and by then great batts should be cheap and plentiful. The sooner lithium batteries get to a commodity-like status similar to lead acid, the better.

John

 

[miro13car]

For all of you reading this thread.
Go and enter into Google
" RC battery fires"
RC hobby is the biggest user of Lithium Polymer cells for sure which comes to my mind.
Few ebikes use LPolymer cells, correct me it I am wrong and post a link for me to see LPolymer powered bike factory-made
RC hobby don't distinguish , mention any variations of LPolymer /Ln???/ simply LPolymer.
Real danger of LPolymer is strict charging regime and what happens if overcharged.
see RC web sites for that.
hence all these fire-proof everthing bags , charging in fire pits in stoves, etc.
I turn my grey LB/BMI grey cells on charging and I go to do things,I forget about my bicycle for hours.
MC

 

[AndyH]

... I turn my grey LB/BMI grey cells on charging and I go to do things,I forget about my bicycle for hours.
MC

I do the same thing with my PSI cells, and my 21-cell pack of Thunder Sky 60Ah cells. Plug in the BMS (for the shunts), connect the charger and come back three days later. I know the BMS, the charger, and have confirmed proper wiring installation and torque on the fasteners.

For fires... I suspect most, if not all so far, have been caused by faulty installation or improper parts selection rather than chemistry. This PHEV Prius was using a commercial HyMotion pack made by A123 Systems -- cause of the fire was not the battery - the battery was fully functioning after the fire was extinguished. "...CEO of Hybrids Plus in Boulder, Colorado, said the fire may have resulted from a wiring flaw when Hybrids Plus assembled the cells into a battery..."

The font of all things accurate, Wikipedia, suggests there's a vehicle fire every 96 seconds in the USA. Based on those numbers, anyone using fire pictures as a way to target EVs or specific battery chemistry is probably resorting to FUD as a marketing tool - whether their product is a battery or a newspaper...

 

[AndyH]

RC hobby is the biggest user of Lithium Polymer cells for sure which comes to my mind.
Few ebikes use LPolymer cells, correct me it I am wrong and post a link for me to see LPolymer powered bike factory-made...

Why limit yourself to ebike packs? Guess what chemistry they're using in the Tesla Roadster? 6831 18650 LiCo cells. The linked paper outlines the steps they took to keep the pack safe.

 

[RoughRider]

LiMnCo is the most safe.

Isn't that what my little green Sony Konions are? Safest and cheapest (after dismissing lead due to the weight) says it all in my book. I should get a couple of years out of the 5kwh+ that I have, and by then great batts should be cheap and plentiful. The sooner lithium batteries get to a commodity-like status similar to lead acid, the better.

John

As far as i know, konions ar just LiMn...and have just a cyclelife of only 500cycles...