Loaded Vanguard 2015 Dual VESC / Rear 12S

[onloop]

When is everyone going to realise these boards we (excluding some who choose to build ineffecient drive trains) build are not actually 3 or 4 kw. Nor would you ever want/need that it.

By default the vesc is set to 60A max. On a 12S skateboard this means the max watts is about 2.6kw.

Even Less on a 10S system.

You all should buy a watt meter!

On average a well designed eboard drive train is maybe around 500watts. Peaks of 1000watts. So peak of about 30AMPS (only 15 amps whilst cruising) on a 10S system like the space cell.

This is enough power to drop you on your ass and break some keyboard warrior bones.

The LG he2 in 3P (7.5Ah) can easily discharge at 8C without over heating / huge voltage sag.

So it can output 60A peak if needed. So it can output 2.2kw.

But this is generally not needed. Most people don't spend all day riding up hills.

Here is some video evidence showing realtime data of the power characteristics of an eboard. This board also had a 2:1 reduction ration. Which is not really "effecient" meaning the motor was under additional load. During the incline section it peaked at around 900 watts. [youtube]inj75Ku7KXU[/youtube]

LET ME REITERATE - EBOARDS ARE NOT 4KW!

 

[whitepony]

great video, how did you record all these stats?

 

[okp]

@all: got feedback from APS, these are not in stock yet. According to him, he had never had failures from customers on its powerswitch. Maybe I am not a lucky guy, not sure this is even luck as on two I had twice failure, both on different "models". Who got an idea where I could a powerswitch/antispark 12S that would be compatible with my actual switch button (which is the one provided with the APS one) while avoiding to pay 50USD for shipping

some caps of today

 

[chaka]

@all: got feedback from APS, these are not in stock yet. According to him, he had never had failures from customers on its powerswitch. Maybe I am not a lucky guy, not sure this is even luck as on two I had twice failure, both on different "models". Who got an idea where I could a powerswitch/antispark 12S that would be compatible with my actual switch button (which is the one provided with the APS one) while avoiding to pay 50USD for shipping

I would be happy to send you one of my inrush controllers, PM your address and I'll ship it to you It was built on some proto perf board but is ultra compact. You should be able to run your lighted switch without issue, might need to add a resistor or use power from your sbec to power the light.

I built quite a few of these in an evening but I am switching to some printed circuits so the few I have left are destined for shelve unless you want one.

 

[lox897]

What voltage monitor is that? Looks good.

 

[skate-or-die]

looks like fun! 8)

 

[okp]

Hey there,

Got some bad news. I did some tests on my desk on 6S which was fine. I then went to 12S. It started to be fine, motors were rolling for like 10 seconds, then I tried to go full throttle or at least to give it a boost... and the motors started to do a weird noise. I stopped the power. I just hit the power back and now only one motor is "trying to roll" but not correctly. This is VESC2. VESC1 (which is primary) is no more giving instructions to its motor. I tried 6S back, same situation. Just don't know what is happening. I went back to BLDC and try to detect the motors, not working, I am hearing a ultra ultra light "beep" but that's like almost 2 decibels.

How can I troubleshoot this ? Is there a way to see if the VESCs are not fried ? Motors are 190KV and VESC are FW1.8.

I will be able of course to try the motors on another ESC (the APS from my usual eSK8...) but just wondering how can I move forward. Especially because all was working fine except when I gave the boost on 12S - no weight or constraints on the wheels.

Here's the video.

[youtube]dURZaGs-DUs[/youtube]

 

[whitepony]

oh no

i really doubt that its the motors, but cant help you with electronics. your setup is soo beautiful, board, remote, everything. /bow

 

[sl33py]

i killed one of my DRV8302 chips testing on the bench after updating firmware and wanting to see 12s performance... Still need to get that chip swapped w/ Jamesonotc's help.

As for troubleshooting - inside BLDC are you able to connect to it at all? In the realtime graph area i was seeing a DRV error, then in the terminal tab i typed in "fault" and it would return a fault code. I needed it to have failed/errored recently to see it return a code in the terminal, but that's how i confirmed the DRV chip was dead.

Super sad if one of the VESC's is dead. Such a beautiful build!

Edit - one other troubleshooting step i would try is directly connecting the Rx to each VESC to make sure it's not a canbus communication issue. Simplify to a simple servo wire instead. Use a Servo "Y" cable and see if that makes any difference? (Reminder - remove power wire from one VESC to Rx).

HTH - GL!

 

[okp]

well, in fact both are dead as no motor is rolling normally

I am able to connect to the primary VESC

 

[sl33py]

are you able to see any error codes display in the realtime data tab?

edit - on the one able to connect?

 

[okp]

gimme 5 minutes, going to check this live.

 

[Vulthor]

sad news.

 

[okp]

VESC DRV 1 vs 0 OKP

 

[sl33py]

ouch! Do you have a good Soldering iron or reflow setup? I'm not good at SMB soldering... but with steady hands and a few minutes you might be able to swap a new DRV chip onto it?

With the DRV chip dead on mine it still connected to the BLDC tool even though the motor would not spin. Are you able to connect to the other VESC at all? I'm worried it's more than just the DRV chip on that one if it's totally dead and won't connect. I have no idea how to troubleshoot that...

Vedder isn't that far (relatively) from you, you might reach out to him? PM or email him directly? See what it would take to get your VESC's repaired and any troubleshooting steps to diagnose the one VESC?

So lame, sorry OKP!

 

[lox897]

Damn. That sucks okp. I'm sure you will be able to fix it. Your build is great. Just wondering what that voltage monitor is though, it looks nice.

 

[sl33py]

lox - simple watt meter he took out of the case and mounted so the screen is pretty flush with his enclosure. (Correct me if i'm wrong okp).

http://www.amazon.com/Makerfire-Precision-Power-Meter-Analyzer/dp/B00ORGDQOK.
There are several variants - the "original" Watts Up and these newer less expensive versions.

 

[okp]

thanks sleepy : yes, this is the one I use on my setups.

I will get in touch with Ben & Marcin. I am actually running a 150C 12S lipo (I know it's overkill !) but that should not affect anything as it just deliver what the system wants.

My second VESC (ID 2) is fine, my first VESC (ID 1) DRV is fried/failing. I was running traction control on and everything was perfectly setup. My soldering are all clean and no shorts on my installation.

 

[sl33py]

okp - I spent some time with Jamesonotc this evening working to swap my DRV chip. Had a glitch and he's taking some time to make sure it's 100% (unbelievably cool guy!!), but with his walkthrough on the process i feel like i could swap the DRV myself in the future! Actually feel like i could probably build one myself given some time and practice (start to finish on a bare board).

I would order the DRV chips from Mouser and try to do this yourself! Do you have a solder iron with the hot air blower?

Mine looks really similar to this one:

turn the heat down on the air, decrease the airflow and put a smaller tip to focus the air = not too hard after watching him. I might have to give it a shot!!

If this is more than you feel you can tackle - my build is going SUPER slow and i could send you my pair? I can probably wait until the new 4.8's are available from Enertion... shoot me a PM if you want.

Best of luck!

 

[okp]

thanks! my soldering iron is ...

I will wait from Ben/Marcin feedback. I assume that it requires more troubleshooting that replacing the DRV; as all my build is clean. Ordering from mouser in France would cost the price to ship this to Ben/Marcin and it will probably fail again.

I keep you posted but thanks a lot for this friendship

 

[jamesonotc]

thanks! my soldering iron is ...

I will wait from Ben/Marcin feedback. I assume that it requires more troubleshooting that replacing the DRV; as all my build is clean. Ordering from mouser in France would cost the price to ship this to Ben/Marcin and it will probably fail again.

I keep you posted but thanks a lot for this friendship

Im thinking a good update to firmware 1.13 and swapping out your DRV is going to be the solution to this fix. Firmware 1.13 seems to be the most stable i've used with no errors or burnouts of the DRV chip.

Be careful with the breaking with VESC and a full pack battery. You want to make sure to not overcharge by regenerating back into a full pack.

Where did you get your VESC?

 

[okp]

Thanks! I got it from Marcin - FW is 1.8

 

[bandaro]

When is everyone going to realise these boards we (excluding some who choose to build ineffecient drive trains) build are not actually 3 or 4 kw. Nor would you ever want/need that it.

By default the vesc is set to 60A max. On a 12S skateboard this means the max watts is about 2.6kw.

Even Less on a 10S system.

You all should buy a watt meter!

It may be, but what if one is running two vesc's, as is the case here and many others? That increases the potential to 120 amps. What is laid down in power is different, but I have a watt meter, and I see sustained amp readings above 3kw from the batteries - so too much for the space? in a 10s battery that is 85+ amps. Can 18650's sustain this? I am looking at a new setup and chasing my battery options. While I typically do not pull more than about 1800 watts from the batteries, I do like to be able to maintain a decent speed, and having a sustained draw more than the rated c kills the 18650 cells from the reviews I've found.

Here is some video evidence showing realtime data of the power characteristics of an eboard. This board also had a 2:1 reduction ration. Which is not really "effecient" meaning the motor was under additional load. During the incline section it peaked at around 900 watts.

LET ME REITERATE - EBOARDS ARE NOT 4KW!

It did give me a chuckle that while you say it peaked at 900, the screenshot shows about 20% more than that. Also, vedders run recorded there is not a "typical" ride. He maxes out at about the 30km/h, I generally cruise above this. 20km/h pulls about 500 watts and 30km/h around 1000w as shown in the video; 40 pulls almost 2kw. Any slope is much more.

I'm looking for a battery that can push and sustain more than I intend on using so I don't spend hundreds on cells that die early due to over discharge rates. 4p 18650's would be the minimum IMO, but this is getting quite large/heavy.

But back to topic, that sucks okp! I hope you can get your vesc running again soon! I'm looking into getting a few 4.8's built locally soon, really keen to try the vesc in my systems, and see if I can get them to work well in my hubs as well.

 

[lox897]

Thanks sl33py.

 

[sl33py]

Great points Bandaro. On my dual 5065 i consistently hit a peak of around 19xx watts. I think i broke 2k once, but usually 1950-1990watts with some small hills and geared for top speed around 25mph (on 8s at the time). I'm curious what the new setup (63mm R-Spec's on 12s) will peak at, but it's not the focus at all.

I agree that folks over-fixate on the motor watts - then run a 10-12s motor on 6s... (i ran my 10s 5065's on 8s - :lol: )

And seriously i'd take the motors claimed wattage with more than a grain of salt!

I love Vedder's video overlay showing the real-time power (Amps, mAh consumed, regen, etc.) super super cool. I've got an eagletree v4 logger for my next build. Does it solve world peace? No. Good info though to see.