Looking for recommendations (Cyclone 2-6kW build)

[WhiteSkyMage]

Hello there bikers,

I would like to ask for some recommendations. I've been doing a lot of research for the past week in eBike upgrade kits and parts. I have 2 bikes - an older MTB (or rather it's a hard tail) and a newer Cyclocross (carbon) one and I am thinking of upgrading one of them to eBike.

I've been looking into getting Cyclone. But after researching into different parts, I wonder how compatible they are with each other, hence I ask for advice. One of the main features I am looking for is PAS, as I want it to still feel like a bicycle, not a full-throttle-only bike. After discovering a couple of different controllers I could use such as:
GRIN Phaserunner
ASI BAC2000/BAC4000
I know these controllers both support PAS, but if you have any other suggestions, I ask that you comment them. I am not really sure how well PAS works with the Cyclone, but torque sensing seems needless to me as I am NOT actually going to ride off-road very much. There are no rules in terms of speed for eBikes in my country, so I am free to ride on public roads. And I would like to know - is there any other bike-computer I could use, other than CAv3?
My desired Max speed: 80km/h
My desired Max range: 100km
Disk brakes on both bikes (not hydraulic)
Current tire width on desired bike to convert: 33mm (can get a thicker one but probably not past 37mm)
Wheel size: 700c
My weight: 65kg.
Terrain: Mostly flat, but 40% of the roads are.... well like this (look images below)...
Budget: 1K Euro

Finally, I would like to just ask, do any of you have modded their GRAVEL / XC bike to an ebike? I ask this question because I mostly see people usually modding a hard tail MTBs, but I was thinking - "if I eBike-mod my Cyclocross, it's light carbon bike with thinner tires, which means speed!", but after looking around, I became concerned about safety at such high speeds (like 60+km/h) on a bike with such thin tires (32mm). It's true that professionals can do the Tour of France and go downhill at some ridiculous speeds with a road bike with razer-thin tires, but I am not a professional, and many of the roads (40% of them) in my country aren't at all flat:

I could get thicker tires for better traction, but not sure if that would help as they will still be well under 40mm width. I am not sure how it would feel going into a road hole with 60km/h with NO suspension (please share your experience!).
Just seems to me like I'm making a mistake and and it's better to mod my MTB with suspension like everyone else here and limit throttle speed, at least until our government fixes the roads...

 

[calab]

High power and mid drives do not go together well, you are going to be buying a lot of chains, derailers, and gears. It is better to buy a high powered hub motor and set that up for what your needs are, mid drives are for lots of steep hills

For those kinds of pot holes, you just lace the hub motor with a motorcycle rim and use motorcycle tires and tubes. I am not sure what the rule of thumb is for motorcycle rims, but in the bicycle kingdom you want thinner spokes, I would say thats true for motorcycles as well but 12g is fine for that, I wouldnt do 10g.

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

High power and mid drives do not go together well, you are going to be buying a lot of chains, derailers, and gears. It is better to buy a high powered hub motor and set that up for what your needs are, mid drives are for lots of steep hills

For those kinds of pot holes, you just lace the hub motor with a motorcycle rim and use motorcycle tires and tubes. I am not sure what the rule of thumb is for motorcycle rims, but in the bicycle kingdom you want thinner spokes, I would say thats true for motorcycles as well but 12g is fine for that, I wouldnt do 10g.

The town I will be riding my modified e-bike is hill-surrounded. I will use a gear-switch sensor for sure, however I could also switch gears in short-pedaling sessions then re-engage the throttle or pedal assist. As you said - yes I will be buying a lot of chains (but they are cheap). The gears and derailers aren't cheap though. There is a way to prevent wearing them out is to change them to e-gears to drop the power when switching.
The buying of new equipment doesn't actually concern me as much as sliding and tumbling my body on the ground at 60+km/h (i.e. I'm concerned about tire traction on the road at high speed more than anything else).
If anyone's done high-speed rides with thinner tires than the ones that hard-tail bikes usually ride with, I would like to know of their experience.

 

[electric_nz]

From my experience of cyclone 3000 at 52v/55A using a throttle, it’s either pedal or use the motor, the power of the motor is overwhelming and the gearing is difficult to get right to use both at the same time. PAS likely wouldn’t work well as you’re adding such a small amount of pedal power in comparison.

80km/h would only work with full suspension and very strong rims- hit a moderate bump on a rigid bicycle at more than 50kph and it hurts!

Also you need a big battery for such a powerful motor- at least 15-20Ah for decent range.

Suggest trying it with a cyclone 3000 first as it’s plenty fast and pretty cheap?

 

[Eastwood]

Personally I wouldn’t put a high powered mid drive on a carbon bike, Seems risky. The last thing you want to do is snap your frame.

Like everyone else is mentioning that much power with a bicycle derailer, cog, chain ring etc. will all wear out extremely fast.

I’d recommend a hub motor. Sounds like you’re looking for something with a good amount of torque. The mxus 3k hub is a great option for Bicycle frames. It’s a little heavier than the traditional rated 1500 watt hub motor but it should give you the torque you’re looking for. The 5T winding at 72 volts will give you around 50mph, as you mention 80km/h.

I say you get a full suspension mountain bike aluminum frame for this build. Rigid frame with that much speed you’re wanting it’s too much.

 

[amberwolf]

My desired Max speed: 80km/h
My desired Max range: 100km
Disk brakes on both bikes (not hydraulic)
Current tire width on desired bike to convert: 33mm (can get a thicker one but probably not past 37mm)
Wheel size: 700c
My weight: 65kg.
Terrain: Mostly flat, but 40% of the roads are.... well like this (look images below)...

Speeds like that on roads like that, I think you want the best suspension you can get, and the most air volume you can get in the tires.

Hardtails will probably suck on those roads at those speeds; you probably can't dodge the holes so you'll hit more of them than you would have to at slower speeds.

If you want better braking, get tires with the largest contact patch possible (wider, sometimes softer tread area), and a balance of air volume to tire volume that helps with this. (meaning, the harder the tire is aired up to, the less of the tire makes a contact patch for a given weight on it and road surface type).

I could get thicker tires for better traction, but not sure if that would help as they will still be well under 40mm width. I am not sure how it would feel going into a road hole with 60km/h with NO suspension (please share your experience!).

It depends on the specifics of the hole, the weight of the bike and you, balance of that weight on the tire that hits the hole, and your speed.

If the hole is not "long" so that a high enough speed means you basically "skip" over the hole, it's not much of a problem. This dpeends on the hole size and the wheel diameter, as well as the speed and the weight on that wheel (more weight, falls faster when unsupported, less speed or larger hole means more time to fall deeper, etc).

The sharper the edge of the hole, the easier it is to end up with a pinch flat or rim damage, if you hit it hard enough to force the sidewall to collapse enough. The holes that cause me most problems are the ones from chunks of missing pavement, because they are generally inches deep and sharp-edged, and can pinch-flat the tubes, or more often leave the tire/tube intact but crush the rim edge and/or break spokes (much less breakage of the spokes than the rims). The more crater-like (sloping edge) holes from sinking subsurface conditions, or repaving of construction, damage, etc., are not as big a deal (annoying and often painful) as they don't usually break things, they just hurt me, but under the wrong conditions at the wrong time can cause loss of control.

For me, the worst ones for my rear wheels (20") are the mid-size sharp-edged 2"+ deep holes around a foot across, at 20mph, because there's enough mass and enough time at that speed to fall just enough for the rim to be in the way of that sharp edge, and BANG. On the front 26" wheel with less weight on it, the hole has to be larger and deeper to cause me the same kind of problem at that speed, and I have been able to avoid all of those so far. (not true of the rear wheels; I've damaged at least three rims with crushed edges from such holes, one of them that was under a large puddle, on a road I wasn't familiar with, so I didn't know it was there).

So...your existing experience on those roads with the holes, with the bike(s) in question at normal pedal speeds, still applies even at the higher speeds and slightly higher weight.

The biggest difference is the higher speed means you can't avoid the holes nearly as easily, so you're more likely to hit more holes (dodging them, depending on conditions at the time, may be more likely to result in a crash).

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

From my experience of cyclone 3000 at 52v/55A using a throttle, it’s either pedal or use the motor, the power of the motor is overwhelming and the gearing is difficult to get right to use both at the same time. PAS likely wouldn’t work well as you’re adding such a small amount of pedal power in comparison.

80km/h would only work with full suspension and very strong rims- hit a moderate bump on a rigid bicycle at more than 50kph and it hurts!

Also you need a big battery for such a powerful motor- at least 15-20Ah for decent range.

Suggest trying it with a cyclone 3000 first as it’s plenty fast and pretty cheap?

Before I comment - I'm gonna just say - Thanks for sharing!
OK, let's start from the top. You are saying that Cyclone 3kW is still very powerful (more so than bafang bbshd) at just 52V 55A and here is me thinking that it will only be as powerful as the BBSHD if I give it the same 52V and 55A. Did I underestimate Cyclone's efficiency or something? I though I was gonna need a 72V 21Ah minimum to get it going at anywhere close to 60km/s, nevermind reaching 80. You are the professional here so your words carry more weight.

2nd - Ok, if that's the case then upgrading that cyclocross to ebike seems to to have been a bad plan from the start. Well... I guess you managed to convince me that I have to go for my Hardtail upgrade. It's got a strong rim and full suspension. Good thing I do research before I spend money. That way I won't regret it when reality hits me in the butt.

Finally yeah - I'll make sure to get a big battery. I think I'll just upgrade most of its components as I have another bike where I can use the old parts on. Seems that's gonna be a pretty nice project to do - a full hardtail MTB overhaul and an upgrade to a ebike. While I'll leave my Merida cyclocross bike the way it is.

Personally I wouldn’t put a high powered mid drive on a carbon bike, Seems risky. The last thing you want to do is snap your frame.

Like everyone else is mentioning that much power with a bicycle derailer, cog, chain ring etc. will all wear out extremely fast.

I’d recommend a hub motor. Sounds like you’re looking for something with a good amount of torque. The mxus 3k hub is a great option for Bicycle frames. It’s a little heavier than the traditional rated 1500 watt hub motor but it should give you the torque you’re looking for. The 5T winding at 72 volts will give you around 50mph, as you mention 80km/h.

I say you get a full suspension mountain bike aluminum frame for this build. Rigid frame with that much speed you’re wanting it’s too much.

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

Unfortunately I wish to stay away from hub motors. I want to have the advantage of using gears with a mid-drive. Yeah sure I will be changing chains more often, but that's fine - they are cheap. Changing tires is also much easier with a mid drive. Thirdly, I've always wanted pedal assist. Lastly, mid drives look esthetically more pleasing to me.

As I said - I have 2 bikes. A carbon one and a hard tail. At first, I wished to mod the carbon cyclocross one thinking about speed and then the "road hole" issue struck me. So you are right - last thing I want is the snap this very expensive frame. Yeah - no, not happening. It'll stay as it is. And besides my hard tail deserves some love and more :lol:

Speeds like that on roads like that, I think you want the best suspension you can get, and the most air volume you can get in the tires.

Hardtails will probably suck on those roads at those speeds; you probably can't dodge the holes so you'll hit more of them than you would have to at slower speeds.

If you want better braking, get tires with the largest contact patch possible (wider, sometimes softer tread area), and a balance of air volume to tire volume that helps with this. (meaning, the harder the tire is aired up to, the less of the tire makes a contact patch for a given weight on it and road surface type).

It depends on the specifics of the hole, the weight of the bike and you, balance of that weight on the tire that hits the hole, and your speed.

If the hole is not "long" so that a high enough speed means you basically "skip" over the hole, it's not much of a problem. This dpeends on the hole size and the wheel diameter, as well as the speed and the weight on that wheel (more weight, falls faster when unsupported, less speed or larger hole means more time to fall deeper, etc).

The sharper the edge of the hole, the easier it is to end up with a pinch flat or rim damage, if you hit it hard enough to force the sidewall to collapse enough. The holes that cause me most problems are the ones from chunks of missing pavement, because they are generally inches deep and sharp-edged, and can pinch-flat the tubes, or more often leave the tire/tube intact but crush the rim edge and/or break spokes (much less breakage of the spokes than the rims). The more crater-like (sloping edge) holes from sinking subsurface conditions, or repaving of construction, damage, etc., are not as big a deal (annoying and often painful) as they don't usually break things, they just hurt me, but under the wrong conditions at the wrong time can cause loss of control.

For me, the worst ones for my rear wheels (20") are the mid-size sharp-edged 2"+ deep holes around a foot across, at 20mph, because there's enough mass and enough time at that speed to fall just enough for the rim to be in the way of that sharp edge, and BANG. On the front 26" wheel with less weight on it, the hole has to be larger and deeper to cause me the same kind of problem at that speed, and I have been able to avoid all of those so far. (not true of the rear wheels; I've damaged at least three rims with crushed edges from such holes, one of them that was under a large puddle, on a road I wasn't familiar with, so I didn't know it was there).

So...your existing experience on those roads with the holes, with the bike(s) in question at normal pedal speeds, still applies even at the higher speeds and slightly higher weight.

The biggest difference is the higher speed means you can't avoid the holes nearly as easily, so you're more likely to hit more holes (dodging them, depending on conditions at the time, may be more likely to result in a crash).

Thanks so much for the info! I have been trying to dodge those holes with a car and let me tell ya - it's like going through a MINEFIELD. But at least in city area it's not like that. Although I plan on biking between towns and villages - some parts are like I showed you on the 1st image... and then there's also those:

and

And the worst is when it's just random deep hole on the road...

The suspension I have on my hard tail is enough to soften most of those 40% of bad roads. But there surely will be this 1% of times where I will have to just "craw" through particular sections. Cars do so...and motorcycles do so too...and I guess eBikes gotta do so too. Just the way it is... I wish our government cared, but they got more money than sense.

Thanks for sharing this valuable info!

 

[amberwolf]

My desired Max speed: 80km/h
My desired Max range: 100km

For this, you're going to need a big heavy battery, to get 100km at 80km/h.

I'm often terrible at math, so you should look this stuff up and verify my calculations.

Conversions for the nonmetric:
100km is about 62miles.
80km/h is about 50mph.
my 20mph (32kmh) on the old Crazybike2 would take 22-30wh/mile. If I wanted 100km at that rate, worst case for that bike it would take 100km * 30wh = 3000wh.

That's a fairly large and heavy battery, and adding more mass to an unsuspended . I have a 2kwh battery on SB Cruiser, and it's something like 7-8" (20cm) wide, about a foot (30cm) tall, and something less than a foot and a half (45cm) long, IIRC, and something over 35lbs (16kg).

Now, remember, my power usage of 30wh/mile is only for 20mph max (probably 18mph average), on flat roads, with some breezes, starts and stops in traffic, etc.

For me to get 62miles of range at 20mph at that usage would take 30 * 62 is 1860wh; call it 2kwh, which could be 35lbs+.

Without an aero shell (velomobile) or any other aero improvements on a bike, 50mph is going to take a lot more wh, even under the same conditions, and not just 2.5x as much (2.5 x 20 = 50) because it's not just a linear increase in power usage with speed.

At a guess, without looking it up, you'll need perhaps 4-5x as much battery as at 20mph, which could mean something that weighs up to over 150lbs and would be quite large. Even if it's only 3x...that's still 100lbs+ of battery. You'd need a trailer to carry it.

 

[amberwolf]

Thanks so much for the info! I have been trying to dodge those holes with a car and let me tell ya - it's like going through a MINEFIELD.

If you have to dodge the holes in a car, then if you hit them on a bike it could be disastrous (you could break the bike or just the wheel, or just get thrown off into traffic, etc).

It probably won't even matter if you have good suspension on the bike, if it's really so bad you have to dodge them with a car.

I'd guess your best (perhaps only) solution is to only ride at a speed you can easily avoid all of the holes, which looking at those roads is going to be pretty danged slow. (I probably would have to go 5-10mph (8-16kph) to do that).

This is what a fair bit of some of the roads I infrequently ride on are like, and certain areas around intersections and driveways and road edges are like on my main commute.

Thankfully they're not usually more than one every few hundred feet (or even less often) so they can usually be avoided...my problems happen when there is a lot of traffic and the things they are doing prevent me from safely being able to avoid them (or they are hidden under puddles or flash floods on unfamiliar roads, which for me are thankfully infrequent trips...but the flashfloods happen at least once a year, usually on my way home from work--at least I know the roads well, there).

The suspension I have on my hard tail

If it's a hardtail, it doesn't have any rear suspension (even if it has front suspension).

If you haven't ridden your bike at the speeds you're wanting on those roads, you may not realize how hard it will be to miss the holes with *both* wheels, even if you can manage to dodge some/most of them with the front. :/

 

[calab]

Lots of people are using hub motors for hilly areas, like that fella in Costa Rica named John (John in cr)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?author_id=6408&sr=posts
If memory serves me correctly, he lived in a very hilly area, talking 2-3k ft elevation differences from his tree house into town. That is a joke I do not know if he lived in a tree house but thats what I just now imagined.

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

My desired Max speed: 80km/h
My desired Max range: 100km

For this, you're going to need a big heavy battery, to get 100km at 80km/h.

I'm often terrible at math, so you should look this stuff up and verify my calculations.

Conversions for the nonmetric:
100km is about 62miles.
80km/h is about 50mph.
my 20mph (32kmh) on the old Crazybike2 would take 22-30wh/mile. If I wanted 100km at that rate, worst case for that bike it would take 100km * 30wh = 3000wh.

That's a fairly large and heavy battery, and adding more mass to an unsuspended . I have a 2kwh battery on SB Cruiser, and it's something like 7-8" (20cm) wide, about a foot (30cm) tall, and something less than a foot and a half (45cm) long, IIRC, and something over 35lbs (16kg).

Now, remember, my power usage of 30wh/mile is only for 20mph max (probably 18mph average), on flat roads, with some breezes, starts and stops in traffic, etc.

For me to get 62miles of range at 20mph at that usage would take 30 * 62 is 1860wh; call it 2kwh, which could be 35lbs+.

Without an aero shell (velomobile) or any other aero improvements on a bike, 50mph is going to take a lot more wh, even under the same conditions, and not just 2.5x as much (2.5 x 20 = 50) because it's not just a linear increase in power usage with speed.

At a guess, without looking it up, you'll need perhaps 4-5x as much battery as at 20mph, which could mean something that weighs up to over 150lbs and would be quite large. Even if it's only 3x...that's still 100lbs+ of battery. You'd need a trailer to carry it.

I was actually thinking of getting one of those triangular large batteries and filling in the frame space in-between and however long I can travel with that would be it. Yeah 100km is the aim for me to get, but not at max speed. This is where my assumption of using pedal assist for some long-range rides comes in. Max speed of 80km/h would be when I just wanna have fun going speedy.
But I am not quite good at math either, so i'll take my time and re-calculate it based on what you told me.
Thanks

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

Thanks so much for the info! I have been trying to dodge those holes with a car and let me tell ya - it's like going through a MINEFIELD.

If you have to dodge the holes in a car, then if you hit them on a bike it could be disastrous (you could break the bike or just the wheel, or just get thrown off into traffic, etc).

It probably won't even matter if you have good suspension on the bike, if it's really so bad you have to dodge them with a car.

I'd guess your best (perhaps only) solution is to only ride at a speed you can easily avoid all of the holes, which looking at those roads is going to be pretty danged slow. (I probably would have to go 5-10mph (8-16kph) to do that).

This is what a fair bit of some of the roads I infrequently ride on are like, and certain areas around intersections and driveways and road edges are like on my main commute.

Thankfully they're not usually more than one every few hundred feet (or even less often) so they can usually be avoided...my problems happen when there is a lot of traffic and the things they are doing prevent me from safely being able to avoid them (or they are hidden under puddles or flash floods on unfamiliar roads, which for me are thankfully infrequent trips...but the flashfloods happen at least once a year, usually on my way home from work--at least I know the roads well, there).

If you haven't ridden your bike at the speeds you're wanting on those roads, you may not realize how hard it will be to miss the holes with *both* wheels, even if you can manage to dodge some/most of them with the front. :/

Wait.. but I do have a suspension under the seat... isn't that "back suspension" or did I get the name "hard tail" wrong. I guess I got it wrong then - it's a proper MTB with both suspensions...
It's like this...

Anyway - when I say "dodge with a car" - i whenever I travel (out city/out of town areas). When traveling between villages. Some roads are as I said - minefields of holes. Unfortunately I do intend to travel out of town with that fast eBike so it is almost guaranteed that I will have to go through at least a single heavy "hole-field" road on each travel. But it seems you are aware of what's ahead of me and thanks for the help. Really appreciated! :thumb:

As I said - i'll do a full overhaul on that full-suspension MTB. It'll be like-new And hopefully I won't break that aluminum frame or my bones out there in one of those holes.

 

[calab]

Yes its a dual suspension bicycle, whether its downhill or xc would depend on travel.
You could go further with seat post suspension and plus tires or fat tires have more air which means a little more cushioning.
I would not suggest going quirky and getting handlebar suspension, that was a gimmick for a millisecond to rake in easy profits from early adopters.

That bike looks to have 2x crank and a normal rear gearset, nothing to big like 50-11 seems more normal at around 34 or 36 to 11.
Remember the more speeds you have the more expensive parts are, a 50-11 rear gearset is going to be 2-3x the cost of a 34-11 gearset.
Narrower chains of the higher speed drive trains means a weaker chain.
A normal 7, 8 or 9 speed drive train is more then you will ever need or require, you only really use 4 or 5 gears anyways.
The age old question of going to a 1x crank or just having a 2x or 3x crank, depends on personal preference. I like to have a hill climbing gear of 22 crank by 36 rear gear, and for cruising a 42 or 44 by 12 or 13 gear for pedaling along at speed. My chain rarely ever pops off, but yours might if your doing bumpy single track and technical trails or jumps.
Road riding with pot holes you'll just need to figure out the gearing, how many teeth you want on the motor, how many teeth you want on the first reduction to crank, then the other crank gear to the back gearset.

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

Yes its a dual suspension bicycle, whether its downhill or xc would depend on travel.
You could go further with seat post suspension and plus tires or fat tires have more air which means a little more cushioning.
I would not suggest going quirky and getting handlebar suspension, that was a gimmick for a millisecond to rake in easy profits from early adopters.

That bike looks to have 2x crank and a normal rear gearset, nothing to big like 50-11 seems more normal at around 34 or 36 to 11.
Remember the more speeds you have the more expensive parts are, a 50-11 rear gearset is going to be 2-3x the cost of a 34-11 gearset.
Narrower chains of the higher speed drive trains means a weaker chain.
A normal 7, 8 or 9 speed drive train is more then you will ever need or require, you only really use 4 or 5 gears anyways.
The age old question of going to a 1x crank or just having a 2x or 3x crank, depends on personal preference. I like to have a hill climbing gear of 22 crank by 36 rear gear, and for cruising a 42 or 44 by 12 or 13 gear for pedaling along at speed. My chain rarely ever pops off, but yours might if your doing bumpy single track and technical trails or jumps.
Road riding with pot holes you'll just need to figure out the gearing, how many teeth you want on the motor, how many teeth you want on the first reduction to crank, then the other crank gear to the back gearset.

That's a good idea. Yeah - since I'm overhauling it, might as well go nuts :wink: . But I'm not sure I wanna go any fatter in tires than mine. I would say it's gonna be XC in my case. I'll most likely go on dirt trails quite a bit too. Not technical ones though...

I think my bike had 8 or 9 rear gears. I think I'm gonna leave them as they are unless they've gone rusty cuz I haven't ridden it for 2 years straight. I have to change the chainwheel for sure though. I might do 3 wheel - 44/44/32 and just attach the cyclone to the 44 one. I am not sure if I can keep the front derailer though - you can tell me if it's doable to switch front chainwheel with a derailer when I have my 3rd chainwheel attached to a motor. I'm not sure if there'll be space for a derailer though...

If I had the triangular space between the frame like I do on my cyclocross, a battery choice will be easy, but with my MTB - I might have issues. I'll check when I travel back and grab it in the summer.
And if I have to change gears though, which is quite likely scenario - I'm not really sure if I should go Shimano. I heard SRAM have some good technology for gear switch detection with e-gears... However I'll follow that advice and look for a 8-9 rear gears. I wonder if my derailer could also have metal cogs. There will be a lot of power going through that chain. The Cyclone is no toy...

 

[calab]

Now I see what your saying about e-gears, for some reason I was just thinking of the switch that lays off the power until you switch gears, but your e-gears your just talking about electric shifting of gears. I think its a waste of money tbh, your money is best spent elsewhere.

Shimano Di2
SRAM AXS

A good little read https://www.theproscloset.com/blogs/news/shimano-vs-sram

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

Now I see what your saying about e-gears, for some reason I was just thinking of the switch that lays off the power until you switch gears

Actually that's what I'm looking for. I'm not sure if those are the SRAM AXS or Shimano Di2... or hold up, are they?
Or do I have to use something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWysEyxKA9s?

 

[Eastwood]

With your street conditions have you considered Moto rims with DOT tires? I know your focus is PAS but with bicycle rims and tires on those street seem like it’s just a matter of time before you bend a rim. You’re probably looking at +15 pounds depending on the rim and tire option if you went that route. So around 7 pounds per tire rim. I mean you can still pedal as normal it would just have slightly more resistance because of the added weight. You wouldn’t have to worry about flats or bending a rim.

Personally I wouldn’t be riding around on those streets with bicycle tire and rims. It’s probably risky enough riding a motorcycle on those streets. It’s not just flats, it’s also wrecking from hitting a pothole at the wrong angle, it happens.

 

[amberwolf]

Wait.. but I do have a suspension under the seat... isn't that "back suspension" or did I get the name "hard tail" wrong. I guess I got it wrong then - it's a proper MTB with both suspensions...
It's like this...

Ah, that is full suspension (front and rear). (sometimes noted as FS).

The catch with this frame is you can't fit very much battery in the triangle, unless it sticks out to the sides so much it interferes with pedalling. To get significant motor-only range, or any range at all at the higher speeds above 15-20mph, you're probably going to have to have batteries in frame-mounted side panniers on the front or the rear, or in a backpack. (I wouldn't put them on a rear rack; that would probably snap off when you hit some of those holes, unless you've welded it to the frame with triangulation for support, since you can't use a traditional rack because of the rear suspension).

Even a custom-made pack of 18650s that is permanently mounted in a box built onto the frame (to save as much space as possible by leaving out any removable hardware that would be inside the triangle) will still be pretty small--without measuring I would guess you could fit around 90 cells in there. If you are using a 72v pack (probably needed to get the speed you want, depending on the gearing of the motor to drivetrain for middrive), that's usually 20s, which means you would only be able to use 80 of the cell positions (20 series sets of 4 paralleled cells), for a 20s4p pack. Assuming around 3Ah for the cells, that's around 72v 20Ah, which is a 1.4kwh pack.

That's fairly big, and would net you a fair bit of range at low speeds, but not for the higher speeds.

Regarding pedalling to contribute power, you're only likely to be able to contribute around 100w continously (even if you can do peaks of many times that), unless you're a very fit cyclist. Even if you change the pedal gearing so it works at higher speeds, the pedal contribution will be fairly insignificant above maybe 30mph, compared to the amount of power it will take to keep you at that speed.

There are a number of "simulators" out there to help figure out watts at speed under various conditions, I think kreuzotter.de is a good one for the pedal part; ebikes.ca has a motor and trip simulator that is more useful for motor simulations.


You can use CAD (cardboard aided design ) or one of the various online battery-calculator/builder pages (links in various threads around here somewhere) to better estimate the pack size you can fit in there along with whatever casing you use to keep water out of it.

You can fit more in the same volume by using a rectangular pack of pouch (flat) style cells, no "wasted" airspace between them like with 18650s/etc, but not if you put it in the triangle. :/ (this also lets you use repurposed EV cells, which are getting fairly commonly available from places like batteryhookup, etc; these are typically better suited to motor driving than packs made from typical 18650s).




Hardtail is one with no rear suspension (hence the "tail" end is a "hard" ride) (even though it may still have front suspension). For these, for rider comfort, one can add a Thudbuster or other seatpost suspension, but it doesn't change (much) the effect the holes would have on the wheel itself, especially once the weight of ebike stuff mounted to the bike itself is added.

Anyway - when I say "dodge with a car" - i whenever I travel (out city/out of town areas). When traveling between villages. Some roads are as I said - minefields of holes. Unfortunately I do intend to travel out of town with that fast eBike so it is almost guaranteed that I will have to go through at least a single heavy "hole-field" road on each travel. But it seems you are aware of what's ahead of me and thanks for the help. Really appreciated! :thumb:

I always assume the worst-case scenario, because that's what causes failures in most cases, and usually at the worst possible time.

 

[amberwolf]

I might do 3 wheel - 44/44/32 and just attach the cyclone to the 44 one. I am not sure if I can keep the front derailer though - you can tell me if it's doable to switch front chainwheel with a derailer when I have my 3rd chainwheel attached to a motor. I'm not sure if there'll be space for a derailer though...

Depends on where the motor chain "comes from" in relation to the derailer shape and position. As long as neither intersects the space of the other, and the chain on the outer chainwheel also doesn't intersect the derailer, it should work fine (you just need to adjust it so the outer chainwheel is 'locked out").

If it's close, like a couple mm overlap, you could add a spacer between the outer chainring and the rest, and use slightly longer chainwheel bolts to hold the assembly together. Or use an offset chainring that has teeth spaced away from the ring mounting spokes. If you move the chainwheel too far out, the torque across the axis of rotation will wear out the bottom bracket bearings a lot quicker than normal, and even potentially bend the shaft if it's high enough.


As for actual chainring size, that will depend on the motor's drive sprocket, the system voltage, the motor winding (kV, RPM/volt), and the desired total speed you want out of the system, vs the rear gearing cluster size range, and the desired torque you also want out of it when shifted to lower gears.

It can get a little complicated to determine everything at once. Back when I did middrives I usually just did a basic figuring of max speed required to get a basic ratio, and then experimented with sizes from there. (that was more than a decade ago; been using hubmotors since then because I was too lazy to design and build high-torque middrive setups that didn't derail or otherwise fail and destroy frames and wheels and drivetrain parts).

I wonder if my derailer could also have metal cogs. There will be a lot of power going through that chain. The Cyclone is no toy...

THe derailer jockey wheels should have no significant tension on them, so they won't wear like the rest of it does under motor power. They're there to guide things, so even the plastic ones shouldn't have a problem in a properly aligned system. If the chain is so short that it's putting tension on the jockey wheels, there's an easy fix for that.

 

[amberwolf]

Now I see what your saying about e-gears, for some reason I was just thinking of the switch that lays off the power until you switch gears

Actually that's what I'm looking for. I'm not sure if those are the SRAM AXS or Shimano Di2... or hold up, are they?
Or do I have to use something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWysEyxKA9s?

The latter is the switch that tells your motor system to stop powering long enough for the gear shift to finish.


The ohters you list are motorized shifters, which don't tell your motor system anything and probably aren't what you want.


But the simple way to do it is to just stop applying power during the shift, just like when you are pedalling without a motor. If you're using a PAS system taht only detects cadence and not torque applied to the pedals, you might need a switch like the gearsensor or a button on the handlebars. If using a throttle, just let it off long enough to shift.

 

[WhiteSkyMage]

Ah, that is full suspension (front and rear). (sometimes noted as FS).

The catch with this frame is you can't fit very much battery in the triangle, unless it sticks out to the sides so much it interferes with pedaling. To get significant motor-only range, or any range at all at the higher speeds above 15-20mph, you're probably going to have to have batteries in frame-mounted side panniers on the front or the rear, or in a backpack. (I wouldn't put them on a rear rack; that would probably snap off when you hit some of those holes, unless you've welded it to the frame with triangulation for support, since you can't use a traditional rack because of the rear suspension).

Even a custom-made pack of 18650s that is permanently mounted in a box built onto the frame (to save as much space as possible by leaving out any removable hardware that would be inside the triangle) will still be pretty small--without measuring I would guess you could fit around 90 cells in there. If you are using a 72v pack (probably needed to get the speed you want, depending on the gearing of the motor to drivetrain for middrive), that's usually 20s, which means you would only be able to use 80 of the cell positions (20 series sets of 4 paralleled cells), for a 20s4p pack. Assuming around 3Ah for the cells, that's around 72v 20Ah, which is a 1.4kwh pack.
That's fairly big, and would net you a fair bit of range at low speeds, but not for the higher speeds.

Regarding pedalling to contribute power, you're only likely to be able to contribute around 100w continously (even if you can do peaks of many times that), unless you're a very fit cyclist. Even if you change the pedal gearing so it works at higher speeds, the pedal contribution will be fairly insignificant above maybe 30mph, compared to the amount of power it will take to keep you at that speed.

You can fit more in the same volume by using a rectangular pack of pouch (flat) style cells, no "wasted" airspace between them like with 18650s/etc, but not if you put it in the triangle. :/ (this also lets you use repurposed EV cells, which are getting fairly commonly available from places like batteryhookup, etc; these are typically better suited to motor driving than packs made from typical 18650s).

Hardtail is one with no rear suspension (hence the "tail" end is a "hard" ride) (even though it may still have front suspension). For these, for rider comfort, one can add a Thudbuster or other seatpost suspension, but it doesn't change (much) the effect the holes would have on the wheel itself, especially once the weight of ebike stuff mounted to the bike itself is added.

Before I say something - here are the specs of the actual donor bike that will be getting an ebike upgrade (i found it online).

This is literally the same bike, i just have the stock spokes. This one's modified.

Моuntаіn bіkе: Drаg F4m Рrісе 790.00lv.Саtеgоrу: Моuntаіn bіkеѕ.
Frаmе: Drаg F-4m Аlu 7005 Т6 17 "
Frоnt suspension: Ѕuntоur ХСR
Rеаr suspension: Соіl Ѕрrіng
Front Dеrаіllеur: Ѕhіmаnо Аlіvіо FD-МС21
Rеаr Dеrаіllеur: Ѕhіmаnо Асеrа RD-М340
Front chainwheels: Ѕuntоur ХСС-Т202 42Х32Х22Т
Bearing Bottom Bracket: VР-ВС73 Саrtrіdgе (68mm)
Rеаr cassette: Ѕhіmаnо МF-ТZ07 14-28Т
Frоnt brаkе: dіѕс Меhаnісhnа Теktrо ІО Месhаnісаl dіѕс brаkе
Rеаr brаkе: dіѕс Меhаnісhnа Теktrо ІО Месhаnісаl dіѕс brаkе
Соmmаndѕ: Ѕhіmаnо Аltuѕ ЅТ-ЕF50
Frоnt hub: Fоrmulа DС-20 QR 36Н
Rеаr hub: Fоrmulа DС-31 QR 36Н

So first about the battery pack fit - Currently I do not know how much space I have in the frame triangle. Placing batteries inside the frame will not be an easy task as I will have to custom-make them or just get a small triangular battery together with the motor kit. I will try to go at minimum 60v pack. I hope that this will give a good enough power to go fast when I wish and range to go as far as the next town just on pedal assist. I will use a calculator from the once you suggested to see how many batteries in series and parallel I'll need. But as for the fitting of them, I will have to ask my friend in the local bike repair shop and plan it out with him. Hopefully I won't have to buy a BBSHD cuz that's expensive in Europe, while Cyclone is cheap.

The latter is the switch that tells your motor system to stop powering long enough for the gear shift to finish.

The ohters you list are motorized shifters, which don't tell your motor system anything and probably aren't what you want.

But the simple way to do it is to just stop applying power during the shift, just like when you are pedalling without a motor. If you're using a PAS system taht only detects cadence and not torque applied to the pedals, you might need a switch like the gearsensor or a button on the handlebars. If using a throttle, just let it off long enough to shift.

Then I will just use that switch to stop the motor from powering. It's easier to do it this way. And the guy provided a tutorial how to install it.

 

[99t4]

Quoting the title of your thread "Looking for recommendations"

If you are truly looking for recommendations, my recommendation for you is to please reconsider your:

My desired Max speed: 80km/h

for that bike

on those roads

Yes that is indeed a full suspension (FS) bike, but just barely. One step up from a BSO, it's going to get squirrelly and busy at much over 60km/h, if that even.

Suggest you study forum member MadRhino's builds if you want to safely ride high speeds on the road obstacle course.

My desired Max range: 100km

At what speed? Hills? Headwinds?
Might be possible fitting enough battery for that into that frame triangle, but it would be a squeaker!

Not saying it is not possible for you to achieve all your wishes, but you might want to readjust your wishlist to better reflect what you have to work with (your environment and your donor bike).