Monster motor

[esoria]

Hallo boys this is the last creation from my team, we use a 400A 136V controller, a123 20A 136V battery, and Hubscooter motor, 20kg of motor!!!
We need to create new swingarm for motor, 24 hours of hard works of CNC welding ecc...
The support for the motor become very good, on the road the bike go very well and good grip, but...but...
Big problem with controller, the kelly 136V 400A seem very weak for this motor, because if you open the gas quickly controller make hard cutoff, and go in error, for no cutoff and error, i need to put 60V!!!! battery and 80% power on controller!!!!
Maybe this motor inductance is so hard for hard cutoff in controller of 400A?? I believ 400A is enough!!!
Some idea for solve my problem? thanks Ettore

 

[esoria]

some photos

 

[esoria]

photo2

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Looks manly!!

Sorry no advice on the error... :?

 

[esoria]

is very strange, but seems Kelly KHB 136V 400A controller is not enought????
I can't believa a kelly 400A controller can't go good this motor, how is possible????

Please guru of hub scooter motor help me, or i go crazy!!!!

Livephorphisycs------Doctorbass----or any man try this bad type of motor

 

[liveforphysics]

Pass 10amps through a pair of phase leads and measure the voltage across it.

This will tell us the phase resistance.

 

[John in CR]

Esoria,
Welcome to the world of hard to drive scooter hubs. Pop the brake side cover off and measure the thickness of the stator. I've been wondering if those with black covers are wider that the 50mm on mine that looks the same, but grey paint.

 

[esoria]

Boys, i can't mesure inductance of motor for now, because my supply is broken, my doubt is, if i have 400A controller, why my controller cut-out power at 180-190 when open throttle and go in error? Why i don't read 400A or more, and after cut-out? The low inductance of motor is the problem?
Other things, i HATE new KHB kelly controller, is very very very weak power output controller, is impossible 400A controller put out only 180-190A, even with my cromotor, i see moooore power with my KBL controller, than this KHB....
If i want make scream this hubmotor how much big controller i have to buy? 10.000A controller, in chinese scooter where this motor run, wich controller is mounted?

http://www.goldenmotor.com/HPC%20Series%20Controller%20User%20Guide.pdf
or for example 700A golden motor is enough?
thanks to all

 

[liveforphysics]

If you're seeing 190amps from the battery, and the wheel isn't turning, its very little Kelly over 1000amps phase current. Phase current is what they Kelly's 400a rating represents.

 

[liveforphysics]

What is no-load current? I suspect a false positive hall combo.

 

[esoria]

Luke, i use the color wiring kelly tell me, i buy motor from Kelly, the motor runs smooth and no load current is about 4A, 190A i see after some full run speed(max amp on cycle analyst), but i have to open throttle very slow, because if i open little more fast.....TAC controller stop and error red lamp code....
Is strange for me see from a KBL 150A controller, 180-200A peak from cycle analyst, and only 180-190 from a KHB opto-isolated 400A controller!!!!
1000$ of controller and hub motor don't work good???? is possible??? How much i have to pay for running an hub scooter strong?
I don't think chinese controller in chinese scooter with this motor, have a controller better than a Kelly KHB 400A
But my big question is, why i don't see the max amp possible of this controller when i run at full throttle, but controller cut-out power?
For example, i have 400A controller and i put on this controller super big motor capable of 10000A, but controller send to motor the max amp controller can, so 400A, and motor run at 400A...Why controller on this motor go in error?

http://kellycontroller.com/hub-motor-72v-6kw13-inch-p-389.html
http://kellycontroller.com/khb1240124-120v400aopto-bldc-controllerwith-regen-p-929.html

Sorry for my super bad english

 

[Andje]

what error code is it outputting?





My KHB is great so far. It is far smoother then the ebike controllers I am used too. I have it set around 12kw right now and it is giving great performance. I know we can get yours working; your performance is very different then mine but it must be an electrical problem somewhere.

 

[esoria]

Error is xxx xx "internal reset", maybe for over power motor, but i can't understand why i read only 180A on ampmeter peak and after kelly go in error, is a 400A controller...
If i understand well, rating of kelly is phase amp, right now for a 400A controller the max i can read about battery side is 200A?
Right?
But why motor surge so much current and kelly go in error?
Andje for me KHB is more weak than old kbl series, put out less amp, and is more noisy, less smooth on motor, you try the KBL series?
You don't feel difference?

Luke, i know you use Sevcon controller,but is too much expensive for me, for you how type of controller is good for go strong this big hub scooter?
Goldenmotor 700A is better? more strong?
I want use this motor with strong power, but i don't want buy another wrong controller, wich controller chinese scooter use for this motor?

 

[liveforphysics]

As an easy test, try increasing the voltage you send to the kelly's control power wire. I think most are good up to ~24v or something, try sending it 20v and see what happens. I've had one that had random resets when being powered at 14v that vanished when powered at 18v.

 

[esoria]

I can make this test, but i already use this controller with cromotor before, and no reset at all...
Works normal with little pack of lion at 14V...
Luke for you is normal for a Kelly controller 400A, look max 180-190A on ampmeter (cycle analist)?

 

[esoria]

Ok boys, yesterday i made alot of test, i try to use a 24Volts supply for controller, i try to use all possible settings on the Kelly, phase current, battery current, 72V 90V 125V pack, but nothing...
This motor seems want a 100.000 phase amp controller, only settings works is 100% battery current and 60% phase current at 72Volts battery, with this settings controller don't go in error, but power is WEEEEEAK, i s like a BPM 500w at 36 volts
I can't understand how a setup of a 400A controller A123 20AH battery pack and HUBscooter motor have to go so bad....
Please boy help me to choose one controller for this motor, i want to make scream this motor, because i feel the potential, but i understand this motor want ALOT of phase amp, and i don't want to buy another controller and go wrong again, i think to buy the most big Kelly KHB72101--1000A phase controller, but i want to be sure this 1500$ controller is good for make strong power from this motor!
Please i need help!!!!
Thanks

 

[John in CR]

The no load current seems right. That's about what mine is. It sounds like just a bad controller to me. What does Kelly say? In the meantime go with LFP's suggestion and try other supply voltages too. It says up to 30V.

If that model Kelly has the throttle ramp up time, start with the slowest since it's faulting on current.

190A battery side on that motor will kill the Cromotor, so if you were pumping 190A into the motor, where was it going? Was that just the AMAX or did you see high current while riding?

Did you try it with the CA disconnected to make sure it's not overriding something?

Also, that's a 6kw rated motor, so it has 6kw worth of phase wires. You definitely need thicker phase wires for the power you want to run. I fit 8 AWG through the axle hole on mine without much trouble except that the bearing has to go on first, which makes seating the bearing properly a bit of a pain.

 

[esoria]

i already try 24V volts supply, nothing is change, i see 180A on max A on cycle analyst, during acceleration, i see no more than 100-110A, i think 180 is little and fast burst, the strange is with Grayborg or 5405 motor and 150A burst, the bike is ALOT more powerful and fast, i don't know how to explain, but 100A in this motor is like 30-40A on 5405-or Grayborg!
Is a mistery

 

[John in CR]

I checked Kelly's motor report and that motor is bigger and faster than mine, and far more torque than the Cromotor. That also means it's even harder for a controller to drive. It sounds like you're at the right voltage, so I would try first programming it a lot lower to see if that helps establish a better starting point for tuning. Disconnect the CA too to be sure that's not overriding current or causing it to pulse. Also try some other supply voltages like LFP said. Maybe yours needs an odd voltage like he ran into, since yours goes up to 30V.

In the meantime ask Kelly. They've been selling those motors for over a year and should know the issues. Maybe it's just a bad controller.

What I don't understand is how you were seeing over 100A but seeing less performance than a regular ebike. Where was the power going? If the 150A was real it must have been turning into heat.

One weird thing I found with mine when figuring out the wiring is that 2 combinations of phase wires gave low no load current with no change in the halls. Every hub motor should only have 1 valid combo without changing halls, whether it's forward or reverse. I attributed it to the high pole and slot count along with the controller auto recognizing 60°/120° phase angle. I only tried riding with one of the combos and it worked fine, so I never tried the other. Maybe you have a false positive wiring combo that results in a strange low no-load current, but won't run right. If your phase wires are easy to swap, get the wheel off the ground and try the other 5 possible to see if another runs smoothly like mine did. Use only small throttle pulses till you get a smooth turning one.

Your other set of wires is probably another set of halls, like mine has, plus a thermal sensor, which mine doesn't have.

John

 

[John in CR]

i already try 24V volts supply, nothing is change, i see 180A on max A on cycle analyst, during acceleration, i see no more than 100-110A, i think 180 is little and fast burst, the strange is with Grayborg or 5405 motor and 150A burst, the bike is ALOT more powerful and fast, i don't know how to explain, but 100A in this motor is like 30-40A on 5405-or Grayborg!
Is a mistery

If that CA is calibrated properly, then that 100A is turning mostly into heat in the motor. I assure you no motor made for an ebike is close, and yours is more motor than mine. I'm guessing it's a 60mm wide stator and only 1 turn on each winding.
Mine is 50mm and what appears to be 1.5 turns due to an the end turns alternating between 1 and 2 bundles of copper. That means yours would have more copper on each turn too.

John

 

[esoria]

Thanks john for help, i receive from Kelly the j2 cable already prepare for this motor, and i only plug into the connector of the motor, i don't have to find right combo because i already have the right one (i hope the cable is correct)...
I follow the combo of phase cable i found on Kelly website, maybe i can try different combo? Possible kelly sent to me bad cable? i can do this...
The most strange thing, is bad feeling of throttle, and too much poor acceleration\power for 100\120A in to the motor, this motor is toooo weak,for example, you can do wheelie at command with your motor with your 180A setup???With 100A and Greyborg i make big wheelie,with this hubscooter i don't know where this 120A go, i become crazy...
If i can today i remove all, cycle analyst ecc...and i want to try other controller from my friend...
I post the new resuls later...
For now thanks to all for help

Ettore

 

[Andje]

if you only tried the one halls combo, try the others there are only 12. Take the halls wires and start trying these combos; GBY, GYB, YGB, YBG, BYG, BGY. One of those will work and the motor will spin either forwards or backwards, the others will cause grinding noises or a none spinning wheel. It will be obvious, the motor should make very little noise spinning up no load, no grinding or vibration. Now, if it spins forward, you are done. If it spins backwards, swap any two phase cables and try the 6 halls combos again; this time one will spin forwards correctly.
Your motor and controller combo will easily be able to wheelie anything the cromoter could wheelie. If it's not happening there is something malfunctioning; your particular components may be faulty, but the combination of those working components will give you the performance you anticipated.
O and if none of those six combos give you a properly spinning motor, check the controller programming for the hall sensor setting; mine was set wrong for the 5403 and caused me about two hours of head scratching. Wheel would sort of spin forwards, but none of the combos was giving me low no-load. I figured out I had set them to 60 instead of 120 degrees.

 

[esoria]

Andje thanks for help, tomorrow i make more test, i see on one of your post you have a Kelly KHB i want to know your opinion about this controller, i alway have and use kelly kbl version, for me is alot more silent smoother than the KHB version, please can you tell me if you feel difference like me?
I make a video for listen the more noisy KHB instead a KBL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZTAcS778JM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Andje]

wow. I hope that video says something to someone, because I have never heard that noise before. At first I was like, o for sure sounds like a halls problem, that's not the noise a happy motor makes, but then you spun it up to full speed and it sounds fine. So... maybe a situation where one halls is faulty in some way? At low RPM it makes the motor grumble, and then once its at full rpm transitioning quickly it isnt an issue? Maybe you have a hall stuck high?

For your question, this is the first Kelly i have owned at all, so I don;t have a comparison to draw from in terms of the KBL. I used only Infineon controllers before this. I really like my kelly, it launches much harder and smoother, the software is great, the error codes are really useful... I don't know what to say. I know I can launch my 5403 with my Kelly at only 100v limited to 50% battery and motor current, and I get 0-100km/h in a few seconds, prbly 3-4. It will certainly put out the amps you need, as long as no other piece of the puzzle is faulty.

 

[esoria]

I try 3!! KHB controller one my and 2 from other friends, my 200A version, one 400A and 0ne 250A, and all of this controller make this sound from 3 different motors, this is for sure a problem\carateristic from this controller, the same motor with infineon, or kbl is super silent, with KHB, is like you can hear the pulse of current at low speed operation, when you go more fast you don't feel the noyse, the first time i feel this i go crazy, i try all 36 combo hall phase, because for me is not right sound, and after 1000 try, i resend back to Kelly, because for me is a controller fault...
But kelly resend to me new one, and go the same, i understand this series make this Noyse, i dislike, but i can't uderstand why this much difference with other kontroller, kelly says me this KHB have a strong pulse current, but i don't know more