More Energy Efficient Controllers Being Developed

Lyen

10 kW
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
621
Location
San Francisco, California, USA
A new generation of high power controllers are being brewed.

The resistor network to supply power to the voltage regulator will be replaced with a switching power supply. The advantage of it is at 110v the resistors will consume more than 150ma of current where as a switching power supply consumes less than 12ma. More pictures of the implementation with the over upcoming controllers will follow. Stay tuned... :wink:

Your Truly,
Lyen
 
I think it's more about reliability - those resistors get REALLY HOT and cook everything close to them too.


Full-throttle stripped the resistors out of his Infineon and used a tiny SMPS.
 
Also, standby current if you leave your controller hooked up to the battery for any reason will be much less, so you won't be wasting a couple of Ah every hour it sits there. ;)
 
A couple of Ah per hour?


We are talking about 5-10 watts.

Lyen's worst case is .15A (at 110v = 16.5w), would take 1.5Ah out in 10 hours. Not good at all, but not a couple of Ah per hour.
 
There's a few odd numbers and salesman-like claims being bandied around here that don't make much sense to me.

First off, the quiescent current of the Shenzen/Xiechang controllers is nowhere near 150mA normally, it has been between 55 and 60mA for every one of them I've looked at, so this means that this particular controller may not be that efficient to start with. The power consumption with the controller on, but the throttle closed, will normally vary from about 1.5 watts on 24 volts up to about 6 watts on 100 volts. Not exactly a lot, but enough to get the dropper resistors a bit hot, as has already been said.

A switched mode regulator, as used on one or two controllers already, makes a lot of sense, but only really to get a source of heat out of the case. Using internal heat reduction as the reason for making the change would be sensible, as heat does generally reduce reliability.

Controller losses, and hence controller efficiency, are governed by three factors:

Firstly, there are the I²R losses in the FETs, internal wiring, board tracks and shunt resistor. At 50 amps, these will typically be around 6 watts for the FETs, maybe 1 watt or so for the shunt and maybe another 1 watt or so for the tracks and wiring. Let's say that the I²R losses add up to 8 watts (this is probably on the low side).

Next, there are the FET switching losses. These are difficult to calculate accurately, but are likely to be at least 1 watt or so per device, so maybe 12 watts in total for a 12 FET controller, again on the low side.

Finally, there are the quiescent current losses mentioned above, which vary from maybe 1.5 to 6 watts, depending on supply voltage.

This makes the total controller losses around 26 watts for a 100V, 50A controller. To get efficiency, all we need to do is work out the percentage power lost in the controller and subtract it from 100% power. 100V, 50A is 5000 watts, so the controller efficiency for the optimistic example above is around 99.48%. In reality, the FET switching losses and the I²R losses will probably be a bit higher than I've quoted, so this figure is about as good as possible.

This "tens times more energy efficient" stuff is bullshit, at best the controller power consumption "might" be improved by maybe 5 watts, changing the optimistic example above from around 26 watts of losses to around 21 watts of losses. The impact on controller efficiency is to improve it from 99.48% to 99.58%, not exactly "ten times more energy efficient"...........

I detest sales bullshit like this, for that is what it is in my view. If you need to misrepresent one aspect of your product in order to try and sell it, then frankly it leads me to believe that other aspects may well not be stated correctly, either, which in turn would make me walk away.

Jeremy
 
Mark_A_W said:
A couple of Ah per hour?


We are talking about 5-10 watts.

Lyen's worst case is .15A (at 110v = 16.5w), would take 1.5Ah out in 10 hours. Not good at all, but not a couple of Ah per hour.

You're right; I dropped a decimal in there. :oops: That's what I get for trying to do math without a formula and a calculator and a pad of paper. ;)
 
Jeremy Harris said:
There's a few odd numbers and salesman-like claims being bandied around here that don't make much sense to me.

First off, the quiescent current of the Shenzen/Xiechang controllers is nowhere near 150mA normally, it has been between 55 and 60mA for every one of them I've looked at, so this means that this particular controller may not be that efficient to start with. The power consumption with the controller on, but the throttle closed, will normally vary from about 1.5 watts on 24 volts up to about 6 watts on 100 volts. Not exactly a lot, but enough to get the dropper resistors a bit hot, as has already been said.

A switched mode regulator, as used on one or two controllers already, makes a lot of sense, but only really to get a source of heat out of the case. Using internal heat reduction as the reason for making the change would be sensible, as heat does generally reduce reliability.

Controller losses, and hence controller efficiency, are governed by three factors:

Firstly, there are the I²R losses in the FETs, internal wiring, board tracks and shunt resistor. At 50 amps, these will typically be around 6 watts for the FETs, maybe 1 watt or so for the shunt and maybe another 1 watt or so for the tracks and wiring. Let's say that the I²R losses add up to 8 watts (this is probably on the low side).

Next, there are the FET switching losses. These are difficult to calculate accurately, but are likely to be at least 1 watt or so per device, so maybe 12 watts in total for a 12 FET controller, again on the low side.

Finally, there are the quiescent current losses mentioned above, which vary from maybe 1.5 to 6 watts, depending on supply voltage.

This makes the total controller losses around 26 watts for a 100V, 50A controller. To get efficiency, all we need to do is work out the percentage power lost in the controller and subtract it from 100% power. 100V, 50A is 5000 watts, so the controller efficiency for the optimistic example above is around 99.48%. In reality, the FET switching losses and the I²R losses will probably be a bit higher than I've quoted, so this figure is about as good as possible.

This "tens times more energy efficient" stuff is bullshit, at best the controller power consumption "might" be improved by maybe 5 watts, changing the optimistic example above from around 26 watts of losses to around 21 watts of losses. The impact on controller efficiency is to improve it from 99.48% to 99.58%, not exactly "ten times more energy efficient"...........

I detest sales bullshit like this, for that is what it is in my view. If you need to misrepresent one aspect of your product in order to try and sell it, then frankly it leads me to believe that other aspects may well not be stated correctly, either, which in turn would make me walk away.

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy! Thanks for the clarification! I do agree with you for now until I have some hard evidence. Therefore, I have changed the subject to make it less sales promoting. I just want to be honest. :)

Best Regards,
Lyen
 
Yes, in general I think this is a "good thing".


The dropping resistors are very crude.


But not earth shattering.
 
Nice one, Lyen. The good thing here is that a switching regulator makes a lot of sense, not because it makes the controller more efficient, but because it gets rid of the hot resistors. making the design more elegant, removing the need for a resistor change if the supply voltage changes and probably improving reliability from running things cooler. These factors all make this change a good thing, in my view.

Jeremy
 
Lyen said:
A new generation of high power controllers are being brewed.

The resistor network to supply power to the voltage regulator will be replaced with a switching power supply. The advantage of it is at 110v the resistors will consume more than 150ma of current where as a switching power supply consumes less than 12ma. More pictures of the implementation with the over upcoming controllers will follow. Stay tuned... :wink:

Your Truly,
Lyen

How powerful a supply is needed? Is a 15 watt 12v switching supply sufficient?
 
John in CR said:
How powerful a supply is needed? Is a 15 watt 12v switching supply sufficient?
15W at 12V is over 1A, and these controllers only use about 60-80mA so you would have lots of extra juice... such a module might be a bit big to fit in the case though?
 
John in CR said:
Lyen said:
A new generation of high power controllers are being brewed.

The resistor network to supply power to the voltage regulator will be replaced with a switching power supply. The advantage of it is at 110v the resistors will consume more than 150ma of current where as a switching power supply consumes less than 12ma. More pictures of the implementation with the over upcoming controllers will follow. Stay tuned... :wink:

Your Truly,
Lyen

How powerful a supply is needed? Is a 15 watt 12v switching supply sufficient?

Hi John!

Your 12v 15watt is sure enough to provide sufficient power. But what I have in mind will be ten times smaller probably 12v 1.5watts or less. The extra "juice" from the switching module will be utilized for auxiliaries. :)
 
ZapPat said:
John in CR said:
How powerful a supply is needed? Is a 15 watt 12v switching supply sufficient?
15W at 12V is over 1A, and these controllers only use about 60-80mA so you would have lots of extra juice... such a module might be a bit big to fit in the case though?

Thanks ZapPat,
I didn't know if current during operation changed much from what I see just powered up. I'm not trying to fit it in the case. I've been wanting to put a 12v supply on my bike anyway for lights, horn and stereo. Plus my controllers all run hotter than I'd like with my high Kv hubmotors, so Lyen's idea seems like a great way to get at least some heat out of the case.

Lyen,
While you're waiting on those miniature power supplies, I guess I'll be the guinea pig to try out your idea. I'll test it solo with this 15w supply before putting a larger one on to run that other stuff too.

John
 
It certainly looks like it's going to work. I've got 12.04v where the 12v is supposed to be. My 7805 is putting out only 4.94v , so I hope that's within tolerances. I was unsure about a section of the board in the voltage regulator area called "Voltage Measurement", which ends with a microC_Vsens, so I left that connected on power up. I did eliminate power to the base and series switched resistors, as well as the "Comparator" section, which Methods helped diagnose was the problem. That section is just too small for me to work on with all those surface mount chips, and that's what prompted me to borrow Lyen's switching power supply idea, though mine will be out board.

Now if I can just find my tube of thermal paste maybe I can give it a go tomorrow.
 
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