Need help picking a mid drive for a unique bottom bracket

minnemike

1 mW
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
19
Location
St Paul, MN
Hey guys. Trying to decide on a mid drive that will fit properly to my Nirve Cannibal (see bottom bracket in pic). This bike has a 3 speed hub and reverse crank brake that I'm trying to preserve.

Bottom bracket has a one piece crank and I assume will need an offset adapter to plug in there. That's one issue. Then I need something that can clear the unique frame design. Seems BBS02 or similar will crowd too closely to the frame here. I am thinking something like the CYC X1 pro should be able to fit most anything? I want to have at least 500w power and be able to cruise at 25 mph +. Just not sure on the reverse crank brake issue.

EQv3cxHW4AE9IvW
 
minnemike said:
This bike has a 3 speed hub and reverse crank brake that I'm trying to preserve.
To use that, you will not be able to have a freewheel on the cranks that prevents the motor from driving the pedals while it's driving the chain.

This means that whatever speed the motor spins at, so will your feet, whether you are pedalling or not. Under the wrong conditions, it can kick your feet off the pedals and whack you in the back of the legs/feet pretty hard.

You'll also have to let off the motor to reverse the pedals to brake, so I'd recommend having an ebrake lever for that purpose so it will shut off instantly, instead of having to wait for any delay the controller may have in letting off power when you stop pedalling forward or let off throttle.

All of the middrive systems that I can think of offhand that are something you can just buy off the shelf have a freewheel in the pedals to prevent that sort of thing, which means that you can't pedal backwards to engage a coaster brake. I'm sure you can defeat the freewheel, but then your'e left with that problem.

If you don't have a front brake, I'd recommend getting one; I don't know that the coaster brake will be able to safely stop you by itself from 25MPH+.

I want to have at least 500w power and be able to cruise at 25 mph +,
You'll probably need more than 500w to go 25mph. About 750w will get you about 28mph under ideal conditions with a typical bicycle and riding posture. A more aerodynamic bike / riding position can take less power for the same speed, because most of the power is used to overcome air resistance, and it takes a lot more power for a little speed gain the faster you go.

Without knowing your actual riding conditions, total rider/system weight, wind, hills, etc., I can't tell you how much power it really take to do what you want, but 750w minimum continuous capability is probably a good start. You can use the http://ebikes.ca/simulator or other online power vs speed/etc calculators to determine about how much power it will take for your specific conditions/etc to do what you want.
 
amberwolf said:
minnemike said:
This bike has a 3 speed hub and reverse crank brake that I'm trying to preserve.
To use that, you will not be able to have a freewheel on the cranks that prevents the motor from driving the pedals while it's driving the chain.

This means that whatever speed the motor spins at, so will your feet, whether you are pedalling or not. Under the wrong conditions, it can kick your feet off the pedals and whack you in the back of the legs/feet pretty hard.

You'll also have to let off the motor to reverse the pedals to brake, so I'd recommend having an ebrake lever for that purpose so it will shut off instantly, instead of having to wait for any delay the controller may have in letting off power when you stop pedalling forward or let off throttle.

All of the middrive systems that I can think of offhand that are something you can just buy off the shelf have a freewheel in the pedals to prevent that sort of thing, which means that you can't pedal backwards to engage a coaster brake. I'm sure you can defeat the freewheel, but then your'e left with that problem.

If you don't have a front brake, I'd recommend getting one; I don't know that the coaster brake will be able to safely stop you by itself from 25MPH+.

I want to have at least 500w power and be able to cruise at 25 mph +,
You'll probably need more than 500w to go 25mph. About 750w will get you about 28mph under ideal conditions with a typical bicycle and riding posture. A more aerodynamic bike / riding position can take less power for the same speed, because most of the power is used to overcome air resistance, and it takes a lot more power for a little speed gain the faster you go.

Without knowing your actual riding conditions, total rider/system weight, wind, hills, etc., I can't tell you how much power it really take to do what you want, but 750w minimum continuous capability is probably a good start. You can use the http://ebikes.ca/simulator or other online power vs speed/etc calculators to determine about how much power it will take for your specific conditions/etc to do what you want.
Thanks for your response. You hit on all the points for sure... I'm going to replace the rear hub with a 3 speed that also has an internal drum brake, so I'll at least have a brake lever and ebrake cutoff option as well as a brake. The bike currently has a front disc brake so we're good there.

With this frame and old American style BB I'm going to need an adapter to make it fit a middrive. And it'll have to be eccentric offset if I want a design that sits too close to the BB like a bbs02.

That makes me gravitate towards a cyclone, gng, X1 or even get on that crowd source for that bikee bike Lightest, which all seem to have an extended motor mount.

Of those, I guess my only worry is overkill if I'm targeting 750-1000w cruiser with at least enough to get up and over some hills with a 3 speed.

I'm not afraid to spend a grand if I can get exactly what I need.

Considering all this, any best choice for my situation....being a first middrive build? Any middrives out there I am missing? I suppose bbs02 or hd also an option if I want to worry about finding an offset BB adapter and hope it all fits.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 
E-HP said:
Maybe polish one of these to a mirror finish and put it in the front?

images
I thought about that. But not a fan of front drive at all. The bike is also a bit weird in that it has a right side disc brake.

I think I'd rather cold set the rear dropout from 120mm to 135 for a rear hub instead. This was my first plan of action... Would love a gmac in there.

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minnemike said:
The bike is also a bit weird in that it has a right side disc brake.
FWIW, as long as you use a DD hubmotor, or a non-freewheeling geared hub like the GMAC, you just flip it over to deal with that. ;)
 
minnemike said:
With this frame and old American style BB I'm going to need an adapter to make it fit a middrive. And it'll have to be eccentric offset if I want a design that sits too close to the BB like a bbs02.
They do make adapters. There's a thread here somewhere on BB standards, from a few years back, that lists some of them.

Of those, I guess my only worry is overkill if I'm targeting 750-1000w cruiser with at least enough to get up and over some hills with a 3 speed.
If you want to know if it will make the hills, you will need to determine the amount of torque needed to climb the worst case hill in question with the total weight in question.

Then see if the system you want to use can produce that amount of torque with the gearing you want to use, while still maintaining the minimum speed you need up the hill.

Then see if the IGH itself can handle the amount of torque the motor will be putting out with the gearing you'll use to it's input, so you don't shear it's protection pin or whatever weak point is designed into it to prevent destruction. ;)


A total amount of power *can* translate into whatever torque you want..but it may not be able to do the speed you need at the same time, with available gearing options.

I'm not afraid to spend a grand if I can get exactly what I need.

Whether that will be enough depends on your needs. Sometimes that's just the *battery* cost.

Have you defined your necessary range, at a certain speed? And defined the hill slope and length? Those will help determine the wh/mile you will probably use, and then the range gives the total wh needed for battery pack capacity. Then the max amount of power helps determine the amount of power the battery must be able to output, and thus it's construction or size.

Knowing those lets you figure out how much it might cost for just the battery, which is the heart of the system. That means it must provide all the power you use, and so must be good quality and of *at least* enough capacity to achieve your goals.

If you think you might ever have detours, or windy days, you should account for this by adding some amount (say, 20%) to the battery capacity.

Since capacity *and* performance drops with age, you may also wish to add some amount (say, another 20%) to the battery capacity to account for aging, so that it still will do what you need as it gets older.

Another consideration is that a fair number of people discover that the power they thought they would need isn't enough, either to do what they wanted, or just isn't enough fun after awhile. ;) So getting a battery with significantly more performance capability than you actually need is a good idea, if you think this applies to you. ;)
 
I would certainly go with a small hub to keep it clean.

A serious mid drive would be way more expensive and obtrusive than what is warranted.
 
Tommm said:
I would certainly go with a small hub to keep it clean.

A serious mid drive would be way more expensive and obtrusive than what is warranted.

Yeah, only obstacle is cold setting the dropout. It would also make it a single speed with no rear brake but I could also add a derailleur and disc brake. GMAC would also provide some level of regen braking too.
 
amberwolf said:
minnemike said:
With this frame and old American style BB I'm going to need an adapter to make it fit a middrive. And it'll have to be eccentric offset if I want a design that sits too close to the BB like a bbs02.
They do make adapters. There's a thread here somewhere on BB standards, from a few years back, that lists some of them.

Of those, I guess my only worry is overkill if I'm targeting 750-1000w cruiser with at least enough to get up and over some hills with a 3 speed.
If you want to know if it will make the hills, you will need to determine the amount of torque needed to climb the worst case hill in question with the total weight in question.

Then see if the system you want to use can produce that amount of torque with the gearing you want to use, while still maintaining the minimum speed you need up the hill.

Then see if the IGH itself can handle the amount of torque the motor will be putting out with the gearing you'll use to it's input, so you don't shear it's protection pin or whatever weak point is designed into it to prevent destruction. ;)


A total amount of power *can* translate into whatever torque you want..but it may not be able to do the speed you need at the same time, with available gearing options.

I'm not afraid to spend a grand if I can get exactly what I need.

Whether that will be enough depends on your needs. Sometimes that's just the *battery* cost.

Have you defined your necessary range, at a certain speed? And defined the hill slope and length? Those will help determine the wh/mile you will probably use, and then the range gives the total wh needed for battery pack capacity. Then the max amount of power helps determine the amount of power the battery must be able to output, and thus it's construction or size.

Knowing those lets you figure out how much it might cost for just the battery, which is the heart of the system. That means it must provide all the power you use, and so must be good quality and of *at least* enough capacity to achieve your goals.

If you think you might ever have detours, or windy days, you should account for this by adding some amount (say, 20%) to the battery capacity.

Since capacity *and* performance drops with age, you may also wish to add some amount (say, another 20%) to the battery capacity to account for aging, so that it still will do what you need as it gets older.

Another consideration is that a fair number of people discover that the power they thought they would need isn't enough, either to do what they wanted, or just isn't enough fun after awhile. ;) So getting a battery with significantly more performance capability than you actually need is a good idea, if you think this applies to you. ;)

The build is already tricky enough, so I'm not going to be very picky on most of these points. I'll likely use the motor relatively sparingly and want to be able to freewheel pedal more often as well as comfortable cruising. The hill option would like include some pedal power, so not essential to have throttle only torque. But I do like the idea of future proofing myself with a more powerful motor, thus the question about amp limiting... which I assume will be all about the controller and display.

For now I have a 52v, 30a, 17ah battery I can use from my currently working bike. My 1 grand will be all about the motor and controller.

I asked cyc X1 people some questions and they responded that they have a cheaper less powerful motor coming out in Sept. That sounds interesting...
 
Hi,
I’m thinking about the same, I got similar setup with the same springer but I’ve put a Nexus 8 gear premium hub. I wonder if here’s a better option than TSDZ, maybe a Bosh motor?photo nov 26, 12 33 55 pm.jpeg
 
I wonder if here’s a better option than TSDZ, maybe a Bosh motor?


Do any of the Bosch motors fit a standard-BB frame? Or are they like many of the OEM systems, requiring a specific frame design? If they won't fit your frame, then you'd have to manufacture a bracket for them (unless someone sells one) and then cut up your frame to weld that in....
 
I wonder if here’s a better option than TSDZ,

You mean, like, literally anything else?

Eccentric adapter rings for the BB shell and BBS02 or BBSHD mounted inside the triangle would be a workable solution.

 
BBS02 or BBSHD mounted inside the triangle would be a workable solution.
That's the first thing I thought after seeing the OP's frame, and the black frame as well. It's rare to find a frame that accommodates an in frame mid drive mounting, but they're pretty stealthy.
 
Although it wouldn't be as clean as an all-in-one middrive like the Bafang BBSXX - what about a generic mid drive like the Cyclone 3kw or Cyclone 1650W?
 
Hey guys. Trying to decide on a mid drive that will fit properly to my Nirve Cannibal (see bottom bracket in pic). This bike has a 3 speed hub and reverse crank brake that I'm trying to preserve.

Bottom bracket has a one piece crank and I assume will need an offset adapter to plug in there. That's one issue. Then I need something that can clear the unique frame design. Seems BBS02 or similar will crowd too closely to the frame here. I am thinking something like the CYC X1 pro should be able to fit most anything? I want to have at least 500w power and be able to cruise at 25 mph +. Just not sure on the reverse crank brake issue.

EQv3cxHW4AE9IvW
Coaster Brake Torque Sensor Tongsheng Tsdz2 Ebike Kit Conversion DIY Mid Motor 36v 48v Electric Bicycle Motor - Re-Cycles E-bikes check it out
 
Do any of the Bosch motors fit a standard-BB frame? Or are they like many of the OEM systems, requiring a specific frame design? If they won't fit your frame, then you'd have to manufacture a bracket for them (unless someone sells one) and then cut up your frame to weld that in....
I don’t mind cutting the frame to fit a motor that has a nicer overall shape than TSDZ or Bafang. I only need pedal assist so probably a 500W would be enough (I want a small battery pack, maybe two hidden in the leather bags).
 
Regarding the battery, I don't know if all the Bosch systems are like this, but at least some are reported to be locked to the Bosch battery pack, using Canbus (or something) to communicate with them and ask if it's ok to run the system...without this the system won't startup and run.

Hopefully they aren't all like that, but something to add to your research when picking out parts. ;)
 
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