New Clean Propane Powered Scooter and Fun Kart

[liveforphysics]

well, the actual stats for most users that posted them up on the gopednation.com forum are in between 65 and 70 ah on acceleration ( flat concrete pavement) according to some posters on GPN, some others that use the cycle analyst claim it was 35 ah´s maximum on a flat.

65-70ah to accelerate? Damn! My 40Ah LiPo pack could only 2/3rd accelerate that thing

Even Kilacycle only uses about 2.5Ah to accelerate to 170mph

Mr. Patmount- I don't often compliment another man's testes, but you must have a phenomenal set to support the quantity of tireless nut swinging action by vocal supporters.

I think you've well earned it. You both shocked and amazed me with the patience and quality of reply given in the electric dirtbike thread. You were always honest, and in the end, I was impressed. When we began, I thought the design was absurd, and in the end, I had gained a large respect for yourself and your unique and clever designs. You are definitely a man who is on the right side of industry, product, and ethics in this world, an I solute you for it.

Being a lover of all ICE's, I would love to know the answer to a couple easy questions about your clever tiny propane engine.

First, do you draw vapor from the bottle, and use the surface of the bottle as the energy collection source for the liquid to vapor conversion? Or do you use a traditional siphon tube or low mounted bung, and use an external L/V.

Second, is the pressure regulator setup done at the mixer? Making an all 1 piece system, or is it broken down?

You might all ready know what I'm getting at If it's a rising rate regulator inside of the mixer, then enclosing the whole mixer would enable a simple solution for adding boost In a situation with an engine so small, a simple paintball gun tank filled to 4,000psi running a paintball regulator, fed into a second stage regulator to drop and maintain pressure at perhaps 10-20psig could make for a fun way to take advantage of the inherent knock resistance of a tiny bore engine, along with the fantastic anti-knock properties of propane.

 

[mwkeefer]

Sweet!

Ive used a GoPed ESR 750 Ex (my second electric vehicle) for the past 5-6 years, I picked it up slightly used (and damaged) from a skate shop in philly, replaced the rear 76t sprocket (had been crushed) and whalla..

Truly a wonderful piece of engineering and very useful for many years (until my local PD decided it was a motor vehicle which prompted the purchase of a Segway), still works great though I use LiPo packs in it now.

Steve (from Patmount) does some amazing work.

-Mike

 

[dragonfire]

You just hit the nail on the head my German....friend :wink: You are oblivious to the 'fact' that you consistantly make ASSumptions, ASSertions and

since some of the visitors of GPN are in know what the word "friend" of your mouth means if it comes to german, mexican, asian or whatever else other nationality ( hint: it got you banned from GPN once since your interpretation of the word you claimed to say "friend" was accidentially wordfiltered by skript for accidentially being typed out as "nigger") all your other ASSumptions can be sticked there where you seemingly prefer to get it according to the grade you try to stick your nose into others



I´ll leave it with this, impressive new way of motorisation for a PTV but lags of airtire imo.

 

[dragonfire]

edited, cheesecake.



@lifeforphysics;

Since you do live close-by and seemingly like the product and Mr Patmont was quoting your propande-related statements twice on GPN + all of us want to see a Video of it:

Could you guys work something out that ends up in a test-drive that is taped on digital video?
if you come along a nice way to mod the motor ( stroker, copper gaskets, head kit for different cilinder dome..)us Gopedders would be thankfull, the likeliness of the notorious racing performance modders touching this motor as one of the early customers ispretty small so we ( and maybe some hobby-gardeners, :lol: ) would love to hear about potential upgrade options of that particular motor.

 

[Sheriff Jon]

You just hit the nail on the head my German....friend :wink: You are oblivious to the 'fact' that you consistantly make ASSumptions, ASSertions and

since some of the visitors of GPN are in know what the word "friend" of your mouth means if it comes to german, mexican, asian or whatever else other nationality ( hint: it got you banned from GPN once since your interpretation of the word you claimed to say "friend" was accidentially wordfiltered by skript for accidentially being typed out as "nigger") all your other ASSumptions can be sticked there where you seemingly prefer to get it according to the grade you try to stick your nose into others



I´ll leave it with this, impressive new way of motorisation for a PTV but lags of airtire imo.

And yet again more of your ASSinine ASSumptions, ASSertions, misunderstandings and misinformation. At least you are consisitant in the words that you choose to use, and in making those ASSumptions :lol:

 

[v_tach]

For clarification on the electric GoPed ESR...

My stock electric GoPed ESR pulls about 27 amps at 20 mph. Its a SLA 24v system so I'm cruising at around 650 watts. The LiPo powered ESR has a slightly higher nominal voltage so motor current is a bit less with even better performance. The controller limits maximum current at a whopping 130 amps (3kW ) for outstanding acceleration and hill climbing performance if the rider so decides to utilize it but with thumb throttle management I can manage a fairly brisk acceleration to 20 mph without topping much over the 27 amp cruising current. The ESR also has a nifty handlebar mounted Turbo/Econo selector switch that will limit the controller to about 2/3 the top speed of Turbo mode and the acceleration to about half of what is available in Turbo mode for great battery pack charge conservation.

BTW, the ESR's controller can be reprogrammed for a maximum motor current of 200 amps for those that are into that sort of performance however a little common sense is required to keep the stock motor healthy. 200 amps will make short work of the motor if running some ridiculously tall drive ratio or tackling exceeding long extreme uphill grades.

 

[dragonfire]

For clarification on the electric GoPed ESR...

The controller limits maximum current at a whopping 130 amps (3kW ) for outstanding acceleration and hill climbing performance if the rider so decides to utilize it but with thumb throttle management I can manage a fairly brisk acceleration to 20 mph without topping much over the 27 amp cruising current.

thanks for poining this out, this was the intent in behind naming the 130amps maximum.
i once tried to get the motor to a stall by going up a (grippy) grass hill but the chain hopped of the front sproket before getting close to get the motr into "sizzling" or even stall.
the 1st generation "black case" ESr motor which uses a similar brush pattern than the motor of the "Shocker" had the controlelr limited to 200amps and was able to takle a bike ramp upwards out of walking speed, the hill i was trying to climb with the later design silvercase was even a little more step and it still made it, that same motor is used by a GPNmember which is the taller type to haul his 2 grandkids around with on a attached trailer - so the torque is even more plenty than just 750w if needed.




Goda,
since you are persistant in stirring up trouble now on here since banned from GPn, i´ll back outta this thread. other than on GPn the mods won´t go ahead and simply delete one more of your excoursions so this is seemingly necessary to keep the thread "clean" from now on.

even if you allready stated to never take my advise by default ( attached with your mandatory assortment of emoticons...) and since you don´t see a good option if it kicks you in the ASS ( proven by your "fiery desaster"-warning if using a passive balance wire setup other GPN-member do use for years but you are unable to understand, replicate or eveninstall if one was shipped to you..) i´d recommend to get of the topic of attacking me like one of these small ratseized dogs but simply leave the thread or get to it´s topic.

 

[Sheriff Jon]

To the Members of ES........

You have my appoligies for agreeing with Steve Patmont in that Mr Misfires erronious assumptions are often misleading and misinformative. Which then prompted Mr Misfire to dispute that 'fact' and try to argue with Mr Patmont, and then drag more of his typical cuckoo clock drama onto this board.

I may not have the patience that Steve Patmont does in putting up with all the naysayers and snot faucets on GPN, but Endless-Sphere has a much more mature member base who I don't think appreciate this sort of OT mentality. So again you have my appoligies for in any way being part of poluting ES with such soap opera dia-drama.

 

[dragonfire]

so let´say "Yay" to a surprisingly cheap to run and economic counterpart to conventional electric motors.

those still convinced that all ice-type motors are evil compared to a electric should consider the percentage of electric energy lost in transit when transported of the coal and nuclear plants a considerable amount of it still comes from, the propane motors put out 96% les carcinogens and 97% lesser particles than a comparable 2 stroker - and the exhaust gas is not only invisible but can also have added scents and taste like peppermint or roses

this, the fast "recharge" and immanent availability of a backup cartridge( lightweight, off the backpack), accomplished by the allways same performance from the first stroke on the starter "until the last drop of propane" and the low weight of the overall package are advantages which are hard to see over, all that at a price of lesser than a good set of Lipo´s with charger without scooter.

 

[swbluto]

so let´say "Yay" to a surprisingly cheap to run and economic counterpart to conventional electric motors.

those still convinced that all ice-type motors are evil compared to a electric should consider the percentage of electric energy lost in transit when transported of the coal and nuclear plants a considerable amount of it still comes from, the propane motors put out 96% les carcinogens and 97% lesser particles than a comparable 2 stroker - and the exhaust gas is not only invisible but can also have added scents and taste like peppermint or roses

this, the fast "recharge" and immanent availability of a backup cartridge( lightweight, off the backpack), accomplished by the allways same performance from the first stroke on the starter "until the last drop of propane" and the low weight of the overall package are advantages which are hard to see over, all that at a price of lesser than a good set of Lipo´s with charger without scooter.

Has someone ran the running cost calculations? I wouldn't be surprised if it was cheaper than electric as my cost calculations with gas suggested that gas was cheaper to run by 2-3 cents per mile (at $3/gallon and 100 miles/gallon), and that includes factors like lifetime of the battery to 85% charge. Although... if you continue using the battery until, say, 50% SOC (Which might be possible with lifepo4), I'm sure electric would be cheaper.

I don't know about the economics of propane, though. It seems to be another hydrocarbon that's likely evaporated and distilled from oil. The thing that I like about electricity versus any hydrocarbon-based fuel is the economic dynamics - any hydrocarbon-based fuel is subject to price volatility and longterm increases due to the demand/supply equation whereas electricity is relatively stable in comparison considering there are multitudes of potential energy sources, the maximum long term cost of any that could seriously supply our needs being at the most 10-15 cents per kWh(2009 dollars). The batteries and energy storage devices, though, are more subject to price volatility but I've already locked in my battery costs for the next 4-5 years. :wink: [Although, I'll probably want something new, better and exciting within a few years when I have the non-earmarked extra money. Such is human nature.]

For those considering a gas scooter, I would definitely exhort propane. For those that want to use it in possible conjunction with public transport, that would depend on a case-by-case basis, but electric would be less risky depending on your battery chemistry (My bus line won't allow lead batteries on.). I've been questioned many times, but I've never been turned away when bringing my electric aboard. Some seem to be quite enthused by it.

 

[swbluto]

can also have added scents and taste like peppermint or roses

I think it should have a scent added to it just so people would know if it's present or not. It should be a non-repulsive but yet distinct scent, and of course has to be economic to add it. It seems propane can potentially leak and have an explosive potential, so thus the reason for it.

Tasting propane... ummmm :?



From Tox Town:

Exposure to lower levels of propane can cause damage to the central nervous system, lung congestion, fluid in the lungs, fatigue, decreased night vision, tunnel vision, hallucinations, dizziness, lightheadedness, nausea, vomiting, headache, euphoria, numbness and tingling of arms and legs, hyperventilation, rapid heartbeat, poor judgment, confusion, memory loss, anorexia, nosebleeds, conjunctivitis, weight loss, and skin irritation and discoloration.

 

[PatmontS]

Mr. Patmount- I don't often compliment another man's testes, but you must have a phenomenal set to support the quantity of tireless nut swinging action by vocal supporters.

I think you've well earned it. You both shocked and amazed me with the patience and quality of reply given in the electric dirtbike thread. You were always honest, and in the end, I was impressed. When we began, I thought the design was absurd, and in the end, I had gained a large respect for yourself and your unique and clever designs. You are definitely a man who is on the right side of industry, product, and ethics in this world, an I solute you for it.

Thanks so much for those kind words.
Good inventing naturally produces strong challenge from others. If they're not challenging..........well you know the rest.

Being a lover of all ICE's, I would love to know the answer to a couple easy questions about your clever tiny propane engine.

First, do you draw vapor from the bottle, and use the surface of the bottle as the energy collection source for the liquid to vapor conversion? Or do you use a traditional siphon tube or low mounted bung, and use an external L/V.

Second, is the pressure regulator setup done at the mixer? Making an all 1 piece system, or is it broken down?

1. The LEHR fuel system can handle propane in both its liquid or vapor state. That means the propane tank can be in any position. Typically in the semi inverted tank as mounted on the PMW Pro-Ped, the conversion to vapor from liquid will happen in the regulator/vaporizer mounted just below the carburetor.

2. There are two stages of pressure regulation. The first stage happens in the regulator/vaporizer, the second stage occurs
integral within the carburetor.

I hope this helps explain your good questions.

ps, I hope you don't mind that I posted a couple of your very informative previous posts on GoPedNation to help inform the many learning sponges over there.

 

[PatmontS]

Here's a little instructional video for the ProPed you guys might enjoy;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Afi_vx8QQY

 

[swbluto]

I saw in the other proped post that the range was underestimated by over half due to a fuel line leak in the prototype. That's really great news! It seems this is turning out better than thought originally.

Does anyone have a torque/power curve over the engine's RPM range? I kind of want to know what kind of hill-climbing performance I could expect and I very much highly trust data more than subjective experiences. Also, can a noise comparison between that and something else be made? Perhaps between it and a gas scooter in the same video, same range, etc.? (And please, don't mask it with music)

 

[Sheriff Jon]

Here's a little instructional video for the ProPed you guys might enjoy;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Afi_vx8QQY

Steve, considering the resources that you have at the PMW factory including the R & D Skunk Werks, and how it might seemingly be fairly easy to mount one of these Propane powerplants to the slightly bigger air tired GSR Crusier frame.....have you tried yet? :wink:

 

[def215]

i just wonder if it is possible to put one on a spindle ped. i would love to see that done so i can have a motor for my mini goped.

 

[dragonfire]

an airtire variant ( maybe with cidli/ Kanti-Lin suspension) and the go-wagoon trailer could make a usefull vehicle for gardening departments that did not yet switch over to electrics but allready want something green, silent and versatile.

same applies to campers; the urban apaprtment dwellers which should be attracted by the hardtire setup may not consider a propane goped due the laws/ cops on their way and since propane is hardly allowed in parking garages, office buildings and subway trains and busses, at east over here in europe.
the sneaky carry bag should be a mandatory surplus part in the cit, but then you can carry the Pro-ped with you everywhere liek a sporting bag - weight is approximately what the battery pack only of most collapsibale and "portable" electric scooters does weight.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Although the Pro(pane)-Ped in the video sounds much quieter than the 2-stroke gasoline units many of us are familiar with, increased sound reduction is not difficult or expensive. A near-silent version would be worth advertising on RV and sailboat websites. There are two E-bike builds that I know of here with Matts tiny RC-drive on an expensive small folding bike specifically for its storage capability.

I would also like to suggest to the manufacturer of Pro-Ped to contact Staton-inc, as they are the biggest adapter kit suppliers of ICE/bicycle conversions. Although cheap Chinese 2-strokes are provided for, the recommended units are the more expensive and longer-lasting 4-stroke Honda/Subaru engines (33cc's?)

One of the areas where propane shines is in cold-weather starting. Liquid gasoline does not burn (as odd as that sounds) it must vaporise in the intake/cylinder first. In cold weather the choke raises the gasoline ratio so that even with poor vaporization, there is enough vapor to get ignition. Until the engine warms and the choke (manual or automatic) is released, the excess unburned gasoline can be easily smelled in the exhaust.

The Pro-Ped can be stored indoors, so the engine is room temp on freezing mornings, and also propane remains a gaseous vapor even at temps far below freezing. (propane lawn mower?)

There are still millions of people who would benefit from a 10-mile entry-level electric bike (and don't even know they exist), but for 20+ miles or ultra-steep hill-climbing, a propane ICE has a lot going for it. Since this sounds like a new product line, is Pro-Ped selling replacement engines by themselves yet?

 

[PatmontS]

Steve, considering the resources that you have at the PMW factory including the R & D Skunk Werks, and how it might seemingly be fairly easy to mount one of these Propane powerplants to the slightly bigger air tired GSR Crusier frame.....have you tried yet? :wink:

Thanks for asking Sheriff,
Yes, we have the larger propane powered GSR Cruiser ready to go just as soon as we have both a success with the first offering, and enough supplies to introduce more models.
We're hoping for that to happen early next year.

 

[swbluto]

Although the Pro(pane)-Ped in the video sounds much quieter than the 2-stroke gasoline units many of us are familiar with, increased sound reduction is not difficult or expensive.

Judging "loudness" in a video requires a reference sound for comparison. What familiar sound did you have in the video to judge the loudness of the scooter?

 

[Sheriff Jon]

Although the Pro(pane)-Ped in the video sounds much quieter than the 2-stroke gasoline units many of us are familiar with, increased sound reduction is not difficult or expensive.

Judging "loudness" in a video requires a reference sound for comparison. What familiar sound did you have in the video to judge the loudness of the scooter?

I would imagine that spinningmagnets may have some experience with other small IC engines, and drew his comparison from that experience. I myself, although by no means an expert, have been around small two strokes on stand up scooters for about 10 years now, and through my experience also concluded that IMO the ProPed 'sounds' quieter than most of the typical 2 stroke motors that have been used on scooters.

 

[spinningmagnets]

swbluto, you got me! That was a silly thing for me to say (in retrospect). Its easy to adjust the sound of a video to make a product seem quieter that it would be in real life (compared to other uncalibrated videos). I now think I should have said "No matter how relatively quiet or loud the propane GoPed is, it is not difficult or expensive to make it quieter, should any buyer desire that"

I think teenagers in my neigborhood with gasoline stand-up scooters made them as loud as possible on purpose...ProPed would be wise to make them as quiet as possible. Old citizens might complain, and I feel this is a good development.

 

[swbluto]

swbluto, you got me! That was a silly thing for me to say (in retrospect). Its easy to adjust the sound of a video to make a product seem quieter that it would be in real life (compared to other uncalibrated videos). I now think I should have said "No matter how relatively quiet or loud the propane GoPed is, it is not difficult or expensive to make it quieter, should any buyer desire that"

I think teenagers in my neigborhood with gasoline stand-up scooters made them as loud as possible on purpose...ProPed would be wise to make them as quiet as possible. Old citizens might complain, and I feel this is a good development.

Okie dokes. I'm just really curious how quiet this thing really is and I didn't feel I was able to judge that from the video. I know that people have mentioned that there are fairly quiet gasoline scooters (especially the 21 mph and lower 4-cycle kind) before they're modded to be louder, so I'm wondering what real advantage propane has.

I've also seen in another forum that someone with a propane truck didn't notice a difference in volume between his propane truck's engine and a gasoline equivalent, so I'm wondering if there's any real sound advantages with propane with equal power output and all. There might be, but I just haven't heard solid evidence.

 

[v_tach]

As a fuel, I don't think propane is any less noisy than gasoline. Its the lower revving 4-stroke engine that offers a bit of noise reduction compared to the more common higher revving 2-stroke.

My generators are no less noisy running on propane. The exhaust smells less noxious but obviously still must be operated with all the safety considerations of any combustion engine. You cant smell the bad stuff in exhaust that will kill you quickest.

 

[mistercrash]

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