new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[flat tire]

OK, anyone running sensorless with this motor? I'll be trying it this weekend. Fried the halls at the motocross track doing nearly 100Wh / mile.

Here's a vid from when we blew the halls. Blue bike has the cyclone silver bike has a Leaf 1500 hubmotor. First part is us riding the vet track, second part is the cyclone bike chasing a SLOW beginner on a crf250r. My friend almost keeps up with him on the cyclone until it blow!

I dunno how the youtube tag works so here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLWJMLp8us

 

[gman1971]

OK, anyone running sensorless with this motor? I'll be trying it this weekend. Fried the halls at the motocross track doing nearly 100Wh / mile.

Here's a vid from when we blew the halls. Blue bike has the cyclone silver bike has a Leaf 1500 hubmotor. First part is us riding the vet track, second part is the cyclone bike chasing a SLOW beginner on a crf250r. My friend almost keeps up with him on the cyclone until it blow!

I dunno how the youtube tag works so here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLWJMLp8us

Since you like the PV controllers you should know the newer PV controllers have sensorless mode built in; I've been talking to a guy who tinkers with those and seems that if you remove the 5V line to the halls the PV should work sensorless. Worth a try.

100Wh/mile sounds very high, at that point you probably need to open the motor backplate to let some airflow in.

G.

 

[markz]

OK well I went about 6km (which seemed shorter) on my mxus 3kw from a top charge of 60.50V and the LVC was set at 52V on a 4T winding, heavy motor compared to your 9C. I charged the battery up again, and did the exact same trip, keeping an eye on the voltage as the LVC set on my Cyclone 4kw is set to 32V. There was virtually no difference, other then a steel mtb bike with 2 extra frame bar for battery and the Townie which is alum feet forward design.

View attachment 1


My assumptions before were off, saying that the C4K was taking more juice. With the test run I just had, the Cyclone 4kw went about 400 meters more and it had more headwind. Exact same ride on both, with the exact same break time on the two stops.

When I double up the battery I will do another test, but climbing a particular steep hill.

 

[gman1971]

OK well I went about 6km (which seemed shorter) on my mxus 3kw from a top charge of 60.50V and the LVC was set at 52V on a 4T winding, heavy motor compared to your 9C. I charged the battery up again, and did the exact same trip, keeping an eye on the voltage as the LVC set on my Cyclone 4kw is set to 32V. There was virtually no difference, other then a steel mtb bike with 2 extra frame bar for battery and the Townie which is alum feet forward design.

View attachment 1


My assumptions before were off, saying that the C4K was taking more juice. With the test run I just had, the Cyclone 4kw went about 400 meters more and it had more headwind. Exact same ride on both, with the exact same break time on the two stops.

When I double up the battery I will do another test, but climbing a particular steep hill.

Good info, thanks.

 

[gman1971]

Ran the trike A-1 on 20S today for the 1st time; I noticed a good 10% improvement in speed per gear, something expected since the pack is now 10% higher voltage than it was on 18S. The efficiency as in Wh/mile remains to be determined in the long run, but today it did the same mid 20s Wh/mile it did from 18S, we'll see.

Dingus, for how long have you run 20S for? Any issues with the controller blowing up?

G.

 

[markz]

With same everything, increasing battery 2S will increase the Wh/dist.
Judging solely on the motor simulator at ebikes.ca
Using a geared motor. 0% grade 71% throttle 0% human power everything the same except 40V to 48V.
2Wh/km or 4Wh/mile in difference
1 mile = 1.61km

Your using 20S from 18S. 29.1 vs 33.8 Wh/mile in total

 

[gman1971]

Interesting, once I've racked enough miles I'll see how accurate these # and calculators really are. Today I didn't notice much of a difference in Wh/mile, but again, long term results will tell the tale.

G.

With same everything, increasing battery 2S will increase the Wh/dist.
Judging solely on the motor simulator at ebikes.ca
Using a geared motor. 0% grade 71% throttle 0% human power everything the same except 40V to 48V.
2Wh/km or 4Wh/mile in difference
1 mile = 1.61km

Your using 20S from 18S. 29.1 vs 33.8 Wh/mile in total

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman1971
Dingus, for how long have you run 20S for? Any issues with the controller blowing up?

I have used 20S for maybe 1.8 yr on one bike and 1.3 yr on the other without any of the Cyclone OEM controllers blowing up. I am still using the same stock C-3000 controller that burned up a C-3000 motor in deep snow. These cyclone oem controllers rated 40 amp at $50 are far more robust than the Lyens, the Sabvotons, the Kelleys and the Infinions of mine now in the graveyard. The oem cyclone controllers do often get hot to the touch (150 F?)on hard hill climbs. I have 2 spare Cyclone 60 amp controllers on hand but my problem seems to be lack of skill on the difficult stuff and not a lack of torque, so I never made the upgrade switch.

Gamn, how cold in winter do you estimate your Multicraft LiPo packs have gotten? Last winter temps reached -40F here but all but SLA bats were inside. A Prius Plug-in owner told me he just kept his LiFePO4's ? on the charger that night.

 

[gman1971]

gman1971
Dingus, for how long have you run 20S for? Any issues with the controller blowing up?

I have used 20S for maybe 1.8 yr on one bike and 1.3 yr on the other without any of the Cyclone OEM controllers blowing up. I am still using the same stock C-3000 controller that burned up a C-3000 motor in deep snow. These cyclone oem controllers rated 40 amp at $50 are far more robust than the Lyens, the Sabvotons, the Kelleys and the Infinions of mine now in the graveyard. The oem cyclone controllers do often get hot to the touch (150 F?)on hard hill climbs. I have 2 spare Cyclone 60 amp controllers on hand but my problem seems to be lack of skill on the difficult stuff and not a lack of torque, so I never made the upgrade switch.

Gamn, how cold in winter do you estimate your Multicraft LiPo packs have gotten? Last winter temps reached -40F here but all but SLA bats were inside. A Prius Plug-in owner told me he just kept his LiFePO4's ? on the charger that night.

Dingus,
Good to know, yeah and after reading your post I think I am sticking with the stock controller ... Thanks for the heads up. Lets hope the change is for the better.

As for temps, the only two days I allowed this to happen the sag was horrible; after 8 hours of them sitting outside at 0F for 8 hours, a nearly fully charged 18S pack @ 73.4V sagged down to 63-4volts under a mere 900W of power... completely unacceptable... So, I can't even begin to imagine what would happen to these packs at -40F... The solution that worked for me (aside from the heater pads and other more complex stuff I tossed around) was a winter-only battery configuration using two batteries, a smaller 48V LiFePo4 pack that is permanently affixed inside (only during the winter months), and the always detachable 18S (now 20S) 1.2 kWh main pack; when I arrived to work during the past winter, the main pack was taken out and switched to internal LiFePo4 power to run the alarm. The 48V pack was enclosed in a sealed styrofoam box with the inside covered in aluminum foil to preserve the heat as long as possible. Worked very well, the LiFePo4 pack only required recharging once in 3 months.

G.

 

[ebike11]

gman1971
Dingus, for how long have you run 20S for? Any issues with the controller blowing up?

I have used 20S for maybe 1.8 yr on one bike and 1.3 yr on the other without any of the Cyclone OEM controllers blowing up. I am still using the same stock C-3000 controller that burned up a C-3000 motor in deep snow. These cyclone oem controllers rated 40 amp at $50 are far more robust than the Lyens, the Sabvotons, the Kelleys and the Infinions of mine now in the graveyard. The oem cyclone controllers do often get hot to the touch (150 F?)on hard hill climbs. I have 2 spare Cyclone 60 amp controllers on hand but my problem seems to be lack of skill on the difficult stuff and not a lack of torque, so I never made the upgrade switch.

Gamn, how cold in winter do you estimate your Multicraft LiPo packs have gotten? Last winter temps reached -40F here but all but SLA bats were inside. A Prius Plug-in owner told me he just kept his LiFePO4's ? on the charger that night.

Hi
Are there 2 different controllers, 40A and 60A?
Or did you just do a shunt mod to bump up the amps to 60A ?

 

[markz]

My all-in-one brake lever and shifter get in the way of the throttle. Thinking I might go to old school road shifter.
https://ebike.hu/kepek/qyN/shimano-a050-sl-sy20a-shifter-set.jpg

 

[Chalo]

My all-in-one brake lever and shifter get in the way of the throttle. Thinking I might go to old school road shifter.
https://ebike.hu/kepek/qyN/shimano-a050-sl-sy20a-shifter-set.jpg

Why not a left side throttle?

 

[robocam]

There are 2 different controllers. Here's the 60A one.

https://lunacycle.com/60-amp-36-72v-ebike-bluetooth-programmable-controller/

Hi
Are there 2 different controllers, 40A and 60A?
Or did you just do a shunt mod to bump up the amps to 60A ?

 

[progrock]

I've been planning on doing a 3000w cyclone build for some time now, and finally got started... though still waiting on Luna to get the kits back in stock (Haven't found any other similar kit that I would want, here in the US).

I started working on my initial battery. I realized that 95% of my use of this bike will be short trips, mostly under a few miles round trip, and I live in an apartment building without an elevator... luckily only 1 flight of stairs up... but trying to keep the bike as light as possible (I actually own a production a2b ebike that I got for a good price in almost new condition, but I never use it since it's such a PITA to carry up/down the stairs... gonna see if I can sell that very soon). My plan for the battery is to gut a few Bosch 18v 6.3 ah battery packs that have Sanyo 20700A cells (30A 3100mAh cells) to create a 20s2p battery. I'm hoping that it will be able to give me the power I want.. never thought I'd be able to run a 72v battery this small, but with these 30A cells, I'm hoping it'll do that trick, if not I'll probably try 20s3p... or possible just run 2 x 20s2p packs in parallel. What's even more incredible is, with a 20s2p pack, I can utilize the bosch packs current layout and benefit from the plastic holder that's supposed to be some kind of cooling plastic, as well as the already laser welded copper plates. A 20s2p pack is essentially just 4 Bosch batteries in series, and at 72v, to get 3000w of power, would only need ~42 amps... which should be possible with these 30A cells.

The bike I plan to put this motor on is a beauty... it's currently a single speed mountain bike with a steel frame from Spot bikes, with a 73mm bottom bracket. It also has a Chris King headset,a s well as Chris King front and rear hubs... disc brakes, among a bunch of other really nice hardware. The Single Speed is once concern... I think it should make installing the Cyclone a little bit easier, but considering it's a mid drive kit that would normally benefit from rear gears... I'm not sure how well it's gonna run with just 1. My current plan is to install it an find out for myself... I live in a very hilly area (one reason I really want a good ebike for day to day use). I figure if I need gears, I'm going to look into a Internally Geared Hub. If anyone has any recommendation here (especially from personal experience) that would be great. I would LOVE to get a Rohloff, and it's not off the table yet, but obviously they are not exactly cheap... so I wanna see what other options there are out there that can handle this kind of power... I know there's a 3 speed Shimano that might do the trick.

I still have a few more decisions I need to make regarding this kit, and add-ons, and was hoping to get some advice from people who have more experience with this setup than I do.

First off, I have a 73mm bottom bracket, should I go with the square taper or ISIS BB/cranks? (It seems like the general consensus is that the ISIS is a little more heavy duty, but I've heard people going both ways on this, so would love for someone to confirm which one is the better choice)

My current plan is to get the upgraded 50a Kelly controller from Luna (I assume this makes sense, tho please chime in if not)... and I also want to get a Cycle Analyst for my primary display and to make adjustments while riding.... anyone know if this controller has the 6 wire CA connector already? (if it doesn't, I plan to open up the controller to add one... hopefully that's not too hard... luckily electronics and soldering is something I am very far from new at, so should be something I can handle pretty easily)

I still have lots of research to do on this build. Need to find a good BMS for a 20s battery pack (Tho have been seeing videos/posts on people recommending not to run a BMS, and to split the pack into 2 x 10s packs and simply use a 10s lipo balancing charger.... But I'm still leaning towards finding a good BMS and likely buying a Cycle Satiator charger, that way I'll have 1 charger that can handle any number of ebikes, etc. in the foreseeable future... not to mention be able to extend battery life by charging to 80-90%, etc.) Would love to hear peoples opinions here, also if you can recommend a high quality BMS, please do... I am not concerned with saving money on an economy BMS... would rather have one that will extend the life of my battery as well as one that I can depend on doing its job correctly and not have to second guess it.

I'm also aware that there are some common mods people do to this Cyclone motor, primarily to it's mounts to strengthen things, and prevent flex. Sadly most of the posts I've seen on this were old and the photos were all gone (making the descriptions basically 100% useless).. if anyone can point me in the right direction with these mods... please do.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have more questions... and will be doing as much searching/reading as I can to research more on this build... but would really appreciate any advice people can give me... whether it's opinion or fact... both are more than welcome. And thanks in advance for the help!

 

[gman1971]

Nice, SickBikeParts.com also carries the kit if you don't want to wait.

20S 6200 mAh should work well for shor range, depending on speed your Wh/mile will change drastically, @ 30mph average should be close to 45 Wh/mile on upright eBike.

Dingus will tell you to stay away from Kelly controllers, while I don't have any experience with those, I would suggest you stay with the tried and true Cyclone controllers, but get the Bluetooth 60A controller if you can; otherwise you can find the 40A bluetooth controller pretty handy as well with a bit of solder in the shunt to bring it up to 60-70A... on 20S should do 6kW with ease. My intuition is that they are the same controller with different shunt resistors...

There should be no issue running one gear, just try to make it as big of a cog as possoble.

Ask robocam for the motor mount mod pictures, he has the pics. This, supposedly only applies to the older mounts, the Luna angled mounts are supposed to be stronger, but I can't confirm myself.


G.

I've been planning on doing a 3000w cyclone build for some time now, and finally got started... though still waiting on Luna to get the kits back in stock (Haven't found any other similar kit that I would want, here in the US).

I started working on my initial battery. I realized that 95% of my use of this bike will be short trips, mostly under a few miles round trip, and I live in an apartment building without an elevator... luckily only 1 flight of stairs up... but trying to keep the bike as light as possible (I actually own a production a2b ebike that I got for a good price in almost new condition, but I never use it since it's such a PITA to carry up/down the stairs... gonna see if I can sell that very soon). My plan for the battery is to gut a few Bosch 18v 6.3 ah battery packs that have Sanyo 20700A cells (30A 3100mAh cells) to create a 20s2p battery. I'm hoping that it will be able to give me the power I want.. never thought I'd be able to run a 72v battery this small, but with these 30A cells, I'm hoping it'll do that trick, if not I'll probably try 20s3p... or possible just run 2 x 20s2p packs in parallel. What's even more incredible is, with a 20s2p pack, I can utilize the bosch packs current layout and benefit from the plastic holder that's supposed to be some kind of cooling plastic, as well as the already laser welded copper plates. A 20s2p pack is essentially just 4 Bosch batteries in series, and at 72v, to get 3000w of power, would only need ~42 amps... which should be possible with these 30A cells.

The bike I plan to put this motor on is a beauty... it's currently a single speed mountain bike with a steel frame from Spot bikes, with a 73mm bottom bracket. It also has a Chris King headset,a s well as Chris King front and rear hubs... disc brakes, among a bunch of other really nice hardware. The Single Speed is once concern... I think it should make installing the Cyclone a little bit easier, but considering it's a mid drive kit that would normally benefit from rear gears... I'm not sure how well it's gonna run with just 1. My current plan is to install it an find out for myself... I live in a very hilly area (one reason I really want a good ebike for day to day use). I figure if I need gears, I'm going to look into a Internally Geared Hub. If anyone has any recommendation here (especially from personal experience) that would be great. I would LOVE to get a Rohloff, and it's not off the table yet, but obviously they are not exactly cheap... so I wanna see what other options there are out there that can handle this kind of power... I know there's a 3 speed Shimano that might do the trick.

I still have a few more decisions I need to make regarding this kit, and add-ons, and was hoping to get some advice from people who have more experience with this setup than I do.

First off, I have a 73mm bottom bracket, should I go with the square taper or ISIS BB/cranks? (It seems like the general consensus is that the ISIS is a little more heavy duty, but I've heard people going both ways on this, so would love for someone to confirm which one is the better choice)

My current plan is to get the upgraded 50a Kelly controller from Luna (I assume this makes sense, tho please chime in if not)... and I also want to get a Cycle Analyst for my primary display and to make adjustments while riding.... anyone know if this controller has the 6 wire CA connector already? (if it doesn't, I plan to open up the controller to add one... hopefully that's not too hard... luckily electronics and soldering is something I am very far from new at, so should be something I can handle pretty easily)

I still have lots of research to do on this build. Need to find a good BMS for a 20s battery pack (Tho have been seeing videos/posts on people recommending not to run a BMS, and to split the pack into 2 x 10s packs and simply use a 10s lipo balancing charger.... But I'm still leaning towards finding a good BMS and likely buying a Cycle Satiator charger, that way I'll have 1 charger that can handle any number of ebikes, etc. in the foreseeable future... not to mention be able to extend battery life by charging to 80-90%, etc.) Would love to hear peoples opinions here, also if you can recommend a high quality BMS, please do... I am not concerned with saving money on an economy BMS... would rather have one that will extend the life of my battery as well as one that I can depend on doing its job correctly and not have to second guess it.

I'm also aware that there are some common mods people do to this Cyclone motor, primarily to it's mounts to strengthen things, and prevent flex. Sadly most of the posts I've seen on this were old and the photos were all gone (making the descriptions basically 100% useless).. if anyone can point me in the right direction with these mods... please do.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have more questions... and will be doing as much searching/reading as I can to research more on this build... but would really appreciate any advice people can give me... whether it's opinion or fact... both are more than welcome. And thanks in advance for the help!

 

[progrock]

Oh, did not know sickbikeparts.com had the kit, will keep that in mind. But Luna told me they should have it back in stock in the next few weeks, if that is true, I don't mind waiting... I;d prefer to get it from Luna... but will def keep this as a backup option if they don't get it soon enough.

Interesting about the Kelly controller... I had not heard anything against them yet. I will definitely do some more research before coming to a decision here (should have at least a week, maybe a few, before I need to make the decision). If anyone else can chime in, that would be great.

Also, thanks for the advice on the controller mod, another thing I will definitely be looking into if that is the route I go. And I am very happy to hear that a single gear might do the job. It was definitely a concern of mine, but luckily it's something that I have the benefit of trying myself before having to purchase anything additional.

I'm also hoping to get some people to chime in on the Square taper vs ISIS bottom bracket.

Thanks again for the info... looking forward to hearing anything else people have to say. Obviously I have my list of things to research and decide upon... and any advice on them is very appreciated... BUT it's also really useful if there is anything I am not thinking of that can be brought to my attention. And like I said, I'm more than happy to hear opinions.

 

[flat tire]

Don't recommend a BMS in general, you don't need to balance good cells very often with conservative use. Cheap ones can also be unreliable, why bother? I use a 10S rc charger and parallel my packs for charging. The advantage of doing this is it's easy to get an off the shelf charger in the 1-2kw range that will also do balancing. A cycle satiator is a nice charger but it's as much as a RC charger + 24V psu and will be a little slow even for a small pack like you're thinking about and it doesn't do balancing.

I don't think there's any particular reason to buy from luna. I had an awful time getting a functioning kit from them but that seems to be an exception. Regardless I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I had to rely on them. SBP on the other hand has only given me awesome customer service.

For a controller you may want something programmable because it makes configuring things like LVC, soft start, switched power / speed limits and battery and phase current a lot easier. Lyon's controllers work with this motor, are programmable, and come with better mosfets and higher volt caps than the stock. I wouldn't get the Kelly. The included throttle is also total garbage. I use a Domino, other acceptable quality throttles can be found from ev motos on ebay like the zero, alta, brammo, et al.

Cycle analyst is very useful and make sure to get the V3 because it will let you remap the input and output range of your throttle.

Oh, and you'll want more battery capacity for sure unless you plan to go rather slowly and pedal. Otherwise the bike won't have much range.

 

[progrock]

Flat tire, thank you so much for the info... extremely useful.

So first off, I've been debating on the whole BMS thing... a few days ago I was sure I was going to go with one... but lately have been hearing quite a few good reasons not to.... or at least, reasons why its not needed. I was about to post saying that if I was going to go with a BMS, I was looking at this one: http://www.bestechpower.com/74v20spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/PCM-D131.html

But I think I agree with you, I'm definitely using quality cells, and using a 10s balancing charger seems like it would be good. ALSO, I actually need to buy a lipo charger anyway... and was about to pull the trigger on an ISDT T8... until I read into people using these chargers instead of using a BMS, in which case, with my plans to run a 20s battery, I'll be needing a 10s charger at the very least (and haven't seen anything over 10s, maybe they exist, but probably super expensive, and 10s is what I'll be needing). As far as how quickly one charges... that's not too high of a concern of mine... as far as I know, charging slower is generally better for the battery, and I expect that most of the time, I'll have more than enough time to charge as slow as I want. Now I just need to figure out which 10s charger to get. I've seen 3 iCharger models (1010B+, 3010B, and 4010duo) as well as the Turnigy Reactor 30A 1000w and the Cellpro 10XP. I'm sure I probably missed a few as well. At least out of these, I suppose the 4010duo is the most appealing, would let me charge both haves of a 20s at the same time... but is also pretty damn expensive, and as I said, I usually expect to have plenty of time to charge. Given I was looking at the Satiator, so I'm considering spending the money on the duo.... but might get something cheaper at least for a little while. Any recommendations on a good 10s charger would be great.

I've also seen people that go without a BMS install a small device that will display the individual cell voltages in a cycle. (ie. one that you would use the balancing plug to connect, and when you click a button on it, it would show each voltage, one at a time) I'm not exactly sure the correct term for this kind of voltage meter, but I'm sure someone does. I suppose it may not be critical in my situation, but likely not a bad idea (and I can't imagine it being too expensive).

As for Luna vs SBPs, thank you for sharing your experience/opinion. While I'm guessing you probably jsut had bad luck with the kit from Luna, still good to know. My concern with regards to this kit.. .and maybe I heard wrong... but does Luna have a stronger mount? If the SBP's kit is just as good... then maybe I will get it... would save me time waiting for it to come in stock, which is a major bonus... AND if SBP isn't in California... will save me tax (anyone know where they are located?)

I DEFINITELY want a programmable controller. I'll have to do some more research here... but where can I find the Lyon's controller you recommend?... sounds like a good choice... unless anyone else wants to chime in why another controller would be a better one.

I almost forgot about the throttle. I had a feeling that the one that comes with the Luna kit was not gonna be that good... especially at 72v. Thank you for reminding me... and thanks for the recommendations. I gotta decide on whether I want a thumb or a twist... somewhat leaning toward the thumb right now.. then just need to find one that will be the right fit for a 72v bike.

And finally, as for my current battery plan. My goal is to essentially to have a battery that will produce as much power as I'll need (ie. in the 3,000 watt range) but at least for now, I expect that 90-95% of my rides are going to be under 4 miles round trip... most less than 2. Though I am in a hilly area, so I'm not expecting the best mileage (well at least 1 way is usually down hill, and the other up I suppose). I want the bike to be as light as possible, due to having to carry it up and down a flight of stairs every time I use it. I'm hoping that the 20s2p pack with these 30a 3100mah batteries (72v 6.3ah) will be enough for these short rides. And my plan for the longer rides are to have at least another 20s2p pack to run in parallel.... possibly 2. I'm hoping that the initial pack will be enough to make the power I need... and to give me a chance to decide one what more I'll need for longer rides. I'm fully aware that it's not gonna get me too far... but have my fingers crossed that it'll be enough for the short rides that I am planning. Plus if it works, having 2-3 of these packs could be really convenient... I'd always have at least 1 pack charged and ready to go... and can stack them up for longer rides.

 

[gman1971]

I advice against parallel charging, use three or four 6S chargers to balance all the cells, every time. In my years of RC and EV experience, parallel charging is the fastest way to ruin your packs in demanding applications, been there, done that, and twice to be exact. After 8000 miles and three damaged Multistar 16000 packs b/c of this way of charging (how I did it very early on, lesson learned) you MUST check your cell voltage per cell, and per pack, otherwise you'll soon end up with cells that parallel charge fine at 4.20V but when you series them, one will sag down to 4.10, and when you push it, the cell that started at 4.10 vs the other @ 4.19 "healthy" ones, will be at 3.2V, when the other ones are still @ 3.78... which means when you hit the gas, that 3.2 V cell will go significantly below 3.0, more like 2.6V, and that cell is now ruined. That was a 300 dollar mistake I don't plan on repeating... maybe okay if you only run your ebike once a month...

As for BMS, suffice to say I am going with a BMS for my newly built 20S and any and all future packs I build, any 80A sustained BMS will work for up to 6.5kW just fine. So to answer the question "why bother?" Well, after years of commuting I am just tired of having to take batteries out, mess with wires and other shit, enough is enough. I just want to plug an XLR jack to the trike and be done with it. You might only do this once during the weekends or when your bike isn't broken down, but I do this every day and taking batteries in/out, even if it is only every three days its still a freaking hassle.

The Cyclone Bluetooth 40A controller would be more than enough for normal application. As Dingus also pointed out, these controllers work very well and will last for a very long time, even shunt-modded to 90A like mine, you don't need anything fancy for controller; save your pennies for the battery.

I have to agree with the Luna statement, and I've had great experience with SickBikeParts, they are quicker to ship and far easier to deal with than Luna... JMO.

G.

Don't recommend a BMS in general, you don't need to balance good cells very often with conservative use. Cheap ones can also be unreliable, why bother? I use a 10S rc charger and parallel my packs for charging. The advantage of doing this is it's easy to get an off the shelf charger in the 1-2kw range that will also do balancing. A cycle satiator is a nice charger but it's as much as a RC charger + 24V psu and will be a little slow even for a small pack like you're thinking about and it doesn't do balancing.

I don't think there's any particular reason to buy from luna. I had an awful time getting a functioning kit from them but that seems to be an exception. Regardless I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I had to rely on them. SBP on the other hand has only given me awesome customer service.

For a controller you may want something programmable because it makes configuring things like LVC, soft start, switched power / speed limits and battery and phase current a lot easier. Lyon's controllers work with this motor, are programmable, and come with better mosfets and higher volt caps than the stock. I wouldn't get the Kelly. The included throttle is also total garbage. I use a Domino, other acceptable quality throttles can be found from ev motos on ebay like the zero, alta, brammo, et al.

Cycle analyst is very useful and make sure to get the V3 because it will let you remap the input and output range of your throttle.

Oh, and you'll want more battery capacity for sure unless you plan to go rather slowly and pedal. Otherwise the bike won't have much range.

 

[progrock]

gman, thanks for chiming in. And thanks for confirming against parallel charging... I wasn't planning on doing it, tho was something I was gonna at least look into. The 4010duo would not be parallel charging, it's more like 2 chargers in 1 unit.... tho not really sure if I would go with that one anyway.

I totally get your point on it being more of a hassle. Tho, I think I should be able to make it relatively easy to plug in a balancing charger without it being that significantly more of a hassle than plugging in a single XLR ot XT90 (more likely) cable.... tho if I don't get something like the 4010duo, would have to charge each half separately, and I suppose that would be significantly more of a hassle. It sounds like both options could be about equal with regards to keeping the battery healthy... but each has a different balance with regards to convenience and cost. I'm going to keep my mind open here... but will have to decide soon enough.

Good to hear another person recommending SBPs. My only concern at this point is if there is a difference in the quality of parts (primarily the mount). Can anyone confirm if they are the same or different?

I'm definitely still undecided on the controller as well. It's good to know that the stock controller isn't half bad, and can also be easily modded to handle a little more power (not against doing that). But, is it programmable? (seems like having a programmable controller is a good idea, tho I suppose having a Cycle Analyst V3 might make that less important) I definitely still want to look into this Lyon controller at the very least. Also, do either of these controller's have the 6 wire CA connector already? (that would definitely make things easier, tho I will wire one in if I need to)

 

[progrock]

Oh, of course SBPs is actually sold out (tho didn't think I saw that message earlier today.. maybe I missed the last one). Though they claim they will have more in a week, so that's not so bad... assuming it's accurate.

 

[flat tire]

Parallel charging works awesome with good battery management. I charge to 4.12 per cell max which gives some headroom between balances. Also, don't discharge the batteries far enough that they fall out of balance. If I cutoff around 3.6v, my cells never deviate more than a couple hundredths of a volt. Note that I use RC lipo so cutoff figures for the same depth of discharge for 18650s will be different. Parallel charging to 4.2 volts and or after discharging too far without balancing each time is a recipe for disaster.

I also have literally thousands of parallel charges on my helicopter batteries, I put them in 6P each time and have some pretty wide voltage differences, sometimes almost 2/10 volt between packs...that's tenths not hundredths. I STILL get a few hundred cycles off each battery if it doesn't get damaged in a crash cuz I don't fully discharge or fully charge the cells. I'd say parallel charging is pretty awesome if you're smart about it. If not...bad times.

I bought a second kit from SBP and they use the same mounts as luna. Luna just buys these kits from Cyclone and resells. They have had some custom editions but the base kits are all basically the same.

 

[gman1971]

With good "battery management", hence why use a BMS...

I thought the same way you did, until packs ruined, a 300 dollar mistake I don't plan on repeating. During my 3 years commuting on EVs to work I've seen plenty of 18S packs that display a clear 69 Volt reading in CA, especially so during cold months, and that you would think all the cells are fine and dandy at ~3.89, when the fact was that one or two of these 18S cells were closer to 3.65V, and that under load these cells were barely holding @ 3.1 volts (CellLog 8s), I didn't catch this until it was too late; and only noticed when my range started to suffer enough and the voltage was plummeting even at very light load, suffice to say the pack was already damaged. But what do you know, right?

Helicopter flying has little to do with using LiPo batteries for EV usage, and I do both: the pattern for helicopter LiPo usage is as follows: recharge them, fly with a timer set to X minutes (usually 5 or 7, depending) then recharge again, or if not, store until you fly again, then repeat. You don't do that with EV batteries under normal circumstances, well, unless you want to kill the battery life by topping it off at every time you come to a stop... The batteries on my trikes (real world application as a commuter, which seems what this person wants to do) remain plugged in for days, running alarms and other stuff... and they sit outside for most of the year, where temps are now starting to drop so the voltage sag grows even bigger with lower temps. So not knowing how your cells are doing, even if its every couple of days, its a sure recipe for ruining the pack. Again, when you only ride once a week for fun or b/c your bike isn't broken down in the garage, the parallel charging might work on a pinch, but is certainly not advisable as a long term solution for EV use; there are way too many things that can go, and will wrong with it; like I am also certain that if you really have charged the packs as many times as you claim, at some point you have plugged the packs in series while the parallel adapter was hooked up, or something similar along these lines.. its just not worth the hassle, the fire hazard or the melted connectors if you plug anything wrong. Also, to be honest, repeating the same boring and complicated task over and over is anything but smart.

If you don't want a BMS or hack-parallel charge the batteries, use a DB25 parallel connector for the balancing leads instead. Before I went with the removable pack I used the DB25 parallel plug to hook up all the balancers, then color coded each charger to match each one of the XT90 plugs. So I didn't need to ever take the packs out of the trike and things charged pretty darn great, no problems; until the winter came and had to take the batteries out of the trike so no more DB25 for me... if you search E-S you'll see how its done, way safer and less hassle than parallel-charge your packs.

G.

Parallel charging works awesome with good battery management. I charge to 4.12 per cell max which gives some headroom between balances. Also, don't discharge the batteries far enough that they fall out of balance. If I cutoff around 3.6v, my cells never deviate more than a couple hundredths of a volt. Note that I use RC lipo so cutoff figures for the same depth of discharge for 18650s will be different. Parallel charging to 4.2 volts and or after discharging too far without balancing each time is a recipe for disaster.

I also have literally thousands of parallel charges on my helicopter batteries, I put them in 6P each time and have some pretty wide voltage differences, sometimes almost 2/10 volt between packs...that's tenths not hundredths. I STILL get a few hundred cycles off each battery if it doesn't get damaged in a crash cuz I don't fully discharge or fully charge the cells. I'd say parallel charging is pretty awesome if you're smart about it. If not...bad times.

I bought a second kit from SBP and they use the same mounts as luna. Luna just buys these kits from Cyclone and resells. They have had some custom editions but the base kits are all basically the same.

 

[flat tire]

With good "battery management", hence why use a BMS...

I wouldn't be opposed to a BMS if someone had a 20S bms that is reliable and doesn't cost a fortune. Sure, my icharger may not be automotive qualified but it uses high quality components and is a proven design.

I thought the same way you did, until packs ruined, a 300 dollar mistake

No, you didn't. You parallel charged to 4.2 / cell and discharged who knows how far. 4.2 is a total recipe for disaster because you will force some cells over max voltage without balancing. Also, I check my balance every few rides. The voltages are extremely stable and and when some cells start to give up I'll retire the pack.

Helicopter flying has little to do with using LiPo batteries for EV usage

Actually, it's pretty similar except harder on the batteries. With the heli I discharge farther, C rates are higher, pack voltages are much more mixed when paralleling, and sometimes I store them for a while with no action. Even so, I've had nothing but great results.

at some point you have plugged the packs in series while the parallel adapter was hooked up, or something similar along these lines

This isn't even possible with my helicopter since with my parallel board there's no way to combine the batteries in any way but in parallel. On my ebike it's not possible either since I have only ONE parallel harness, ONE series harness, and the output plugs on them are not even compatible so I can't plug my series output into the charger. You COULD screw up if you tried to parallel the balance leads while the packs are in series, but I check balance on each pack individually, and connect the balance charge in parallel only AFTER hooking the cells up to the charger in parallel. In reality I almost never need to balance. Sure, I have had accidents and incidents with electricity but none involved parallel charging yet.

 

[markz]

It is good to keep an eye on every single battery can/pouch, or you could do for every 2P, then if something is slightly off you can see it right away. Hardwire in a Cell Log from Hobbyking, either the 8 or they got a 6 that is $2 on sale. Then do a balance charge every so often. Its always excellent to get into good habits when building an ebike or battery.