new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[markz]

I dont know what brand it is, but they use a "Headline" motor, as I learned from a SpinningMagnets thread.

Some sellers slap on some fins for cooling which works great. If I had the money, a Lightning Rods kit would be it, but I like my MXUS 3kW V2, I have thoughts of making it into a mid-drive. Theres room for sure! I dont know if the drive train can handle it. Thats just it with high power, you have to look at the drive train and figure out how much it can handle. Lightning Rods would be a #1 choice, I started a thread comparing them all but I forget the title of it. Wasnt too long ago either. #1 and #2 choices were similar, only differences if I recall correctly was one came with a controller, other one came with some better parts (chain and other things I cant recall), then you get into these Bafang(Chinese Name)/8Fun(Western name), Cyclone units too.

Lots of info floating around what I like to call the "Inter-web" aka internet.

 

[BoomerChomsi]

Thanks for your info! 8)

So it is better to have some patience for LR kits

 

[lantice13]

Those programmable infineon controllers from Em3ev work very well with this motor. I would assume they are pretty much the same motor as the GNG gen 1. Tuning the phase amps and battery amps ratio is a must. It's no BBS02 or BBS-HD mid drive that are already programmed to start smoothly when you throttle up. For longevity of the whole drive system this is a requirement.

Seems like LR is talking to Justin at Grin about programming the Phaserunner for this Cyclone 3000w kit. That combo with the controller between the BB sheets, would make a waterproof and stealth looking kit.

Phase runner is too rich for me though. Can't beat a very reliable infineon controller at $100 or less a pop.

 

[lantice13]

Thank you!

Also what kind of brand are Cyclone controllers?

Thanks.

They use Kelly controllers if you choose that option.

 

[gman1971]

I just purchased this kit from Luna Cycle a week or so ago...

In two words: LOVE IT; I am glad I got it over the proprietary Bafang HD... and I will be building another one for my wife shortly.

On 12S Lipo my bike (or spike snow tires) does about 33-36mph on the flats with no headwind, and ~40mph downhill (gear limitied). I am running a Cyclone triple chainring with 44-46-32T and a 10spd Dynasys SLX shadow+ derialleur with an 11-36T casette on the back. This is the best DIY kit I've seen to date, and this is the 3rd kit I've installed on a bike.... Zero limitations, easy to setup, the mounting plates are THICK as heck... double the thickness of the GNG P.O.S. it replaced. Motor is super quiet, its not silent, but it is a lot quieter compared to the GNG geared mid drive. The Cyclone controller seems like a huge step up from the GNG; the power comes in gradually, as opposed to the drivetrain-shatter controller from GNG which snapped the piss out of everything when you punched it... even the throttle is nicer than any of the other DIY kits I've built, very smooth and the throw is just perfect.

Power is out of this world on 12S: it flips the bike on 32T-36T and will do wheelies easily on 32T-32T, 32T-28T (crank/casette). Max power I get on 12S is about 2000 watts with fresh batteries, 1700 with batteries at ~50% capacity. Range is really good too for 12S. I commute 8 miles to work on spiked low pressure snow tires and that is about 8,000 mAh with zero pedal assist running ~28mph average speed... this is according to the CA and the LiPo battery charger. My battery pack is 12,000 mAh, so basically I have ~12 miles of full throttle at 30mph average, and in my experience you get four times that range if you half the speed, so at 15 mph (no pedaling whatsoever) you'll probably get ~40 miles with 12S 12Ah packs. Power with wheel off the ground is about 60 watts, which is lower than the GNG Gen2 motor (at about 70ish IIRC)

The motor is way overbuilt, which is great; and it looks like an serious industrial grade motor that could do some serious work, and because of that I wouldn't be surprised if you could run this motor at well over the rated 3000 watts... I have yet to run this kit on 72V, but I suspect it will be absolutely insane with that much extra power... right now on 12S for my application is a perfect utility bike with the current performance offered on 12S.

Another big thing is: No more one-way PIECE OF SHIT bearing clutch... which failed on the GNG... this kit has a seriously heavy duty freewheel on the motor, and the motor shaft looks like 20mm or something thick... way thicker than the GNG turd...

I did put a review up on Luna Cycle talking about the kit in more detail, but so far I love it. I've already clocked 140 (trouble free) miles on this kit and its seen from a smooth commute at -15F degrees, to packed heavy snow offroading while towing a bike trailer with about 70 lbs of cargo... it hasn't missed a beat. I doubt you can tow bike+rider + trailer with extra 60lbs of cargo up a 12% grade slope, covered with snow running a Bafang HD without a 32T chainring and a huge rear sprocket... for me this bike is like a snowmobile... I can go anywhere in the frozen Wisconsin tundra...

The BB that comes with the Luna Cycle kit is basically worthless: it has a lot of bearing play so my advice would be to get the Cyclone ISIS BB. I think Eric has the new ISIS BBs in stock, so worth a call.

One more thing, make sure you take the motor out of its mounting bracket before you mount it and put a dab of red loctite on all the bolts holding the motor to the plates; mine came slightly lose after a couple of rides and I thought something broke when it threw the drivechain .... Now after using red loctite on all these bolts (and 130 miles later) nothing has a hint of play so its good.

All in all, it took me about 8 hours of work to uninstall the old GNG turd, clean the bike, and then install the new Cyclone kit.

For the price you can't touch this kit.

G.

 

[tomjasz]

OK I give up, Now I have to try this one on for size...good review!

Luna has a 100MM ISIS, checking around for my 73MM they are pretty reasonable. Thanks for the advice!

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Nice write up, Gman1971. I may have to get one of these kits to play around with.

Because of the width of the motor, is there some extension that needs to go on one side of the cranks? On the cyclone website, it looks like the non drive side crank extends out from the bottom bracket, but the drive side is not. Is it really lopsided like that?

 

[gman1971]

OK I give up, Now I have to try this one on for size...good review!

Thanks.
I don't think you will be disappointed. I would get the ISIS BB if you can; also, I know Eric doesn't sell the 3 chainring kit but if you plan on towing stuff uphill and doing adventure rides towing things like I do you really need the granny gear chainring...

G.

 

[gman1971]

Nice write up, Gman1971. I may have to get one of these kits to play around with.

Because of the width of the motor, is there some extension that needs to go on one side of the cranks? On the cyclone website, it looks like the non drive side crank extends out from the bottom bracket, but the drive side is not. Is it really lopsided like that?

Thanks.

Nope, nothing is required beyond what you get in the kit. My bike is a 68mm BB and everything went in without a single modification. Make sure you put loctite. Kit uses a BMX chain for motor drivechain (not included), so make sure you have one at hand. Don't use the ziptie to hold the tensioner spring. I connected the spring to the upper gearbox bolt. Makes for super tight tensioner (which is what you want for efficiency)

G.

 

[Tyler durden]

@gman1971

i think that write up might have changed my mind from the BBSHD too. I am particularly taken by your saying it was a simple install. I have emailed the guys at Lunacycle and was told

"The cyclone is an advanced build with no instructions or support"

and

It’s cheaper because it is. It’s an extremely powerful and inexpensive kit. It has baffled and stumped experienced builders. I just chatted last night with a veteran builder that post on Facebook having spent the entire day getting it setup right. Only to discover the throttle was extremely jumpy with all the power.
He like it, but found it difficult.
I really strongly encourage some more research. We even go so far as to post a warning on the sale page. We’re more than happy to sell them. Don’t get me wrong, they are a barrel of laughs.
The Cyclone is a fast beast. It’s illegal on the road in most municipalities, it’s extremely powerful and tends to jump out on the throttle. Where as the Bafang is very civilized. Cyclone bare bones power, Bafang powerful and smooth.
Hope that helps!

You're experience seems totally different from these warning!?

This will be my first ebike and I am hoping to do it myself. A simple to follow install guide would be superb if you can manage one!

 

[tomjasz]

Those warnings come as a result of builders that are completely stumped by the build. Believe me there are lots of fellows that ought to stay away. You'd be amazed but the number of buyers that are stumped by the details of a BBSseries build. Often buyers feel the seller ought to guide them though every aspect. The intent was to make clear, there are poor instructions, it is an advanced build for many. Perhaps you have the skill and talent but I assure you there are some very troublesome niggling details that some builders are just not equipped to deal with. I see it every day. Go for it if you're willing to take on the details. This is the key to success. Willingness to get on ES and work through the details. Remember there's a vast difference between frames and setups. One mans' easy build is another nightmare.

 

[emaayan]

Those warnings come as a result of builders that are completely stumped by the build. Believe me there are lots of fellows that ought to stay away. You'd be amazed but the number of buyers that are stumped by the details of a BBSseries build. Often buyers feel the seller ought to guide them though every aspect. The intent was to make clear, there are poor instructions, it is an advanced build for many. Perhaps you have the skill and talent but I assure you there are some very troublesome niggling details that some builders are just not equipped to deal with. I see it every day.

problem is you can't really do a pre-emptive "test" of building qualifications for it

 

[tomjasz]

A simple to follow install guide would be superb if you can manage one!

Note the builder has already done a GNG is also technically adept enough to use lipo, and you're already wanting easier to follow instructions. :wink: I still believe the BBSHD is far more refined and better suited to a majority of mid drive users. I'm going to do it just because I'm curious and only now that I have more than a dozen builds under the belt.

 

[emaayan]

A simple to follow install guide would be superb if you can manage one!

Note the builder has already done a GNG is also technically adept enough to use lipo, and you're already wanting easier to follow instructions. :wink: I still believe the BBSHD is far more refined and better suited to a majority of mid drive users. I'm going to do it just because I'm curious and only now that I have more than a dozen builds under the belt.

yea, to me seems more and more hyped up rave reviews coming the same rate as the bbshd got when it first came out.

for the only side for it, is you can't place a torque sensor on it, but i was thinking, perhaps if the plates were longer, to allow clearance for the pedal for (128 mm bb) , the freewheel, maybe shifting the motor left or right.., placing the charinring insread of a bashguard.

 

[Tyler durden]

Go for it if you're willing to take on the details. This is the key to success. Willingness to get on ES and work through the details.

Hopefully these things are true and I will succeed.

BTW, are you Tom from Lunacycle?

 

[gman1971]

Not sure how can it be so hard to install. Really, there is nothing to it, everything fit perfect on my kit... Now if you don't have the tools to do the install then I can see why it would be a nightmare. Cleaning threads and making sure all your main support bolts are loctited is key here. I sent Eric a 3D cad diagram on how to update the motor mounts without needing to spend money on things like LR or anything like that. All you need is washers. I'll put the CAD diagrams tonight when I get home...

To install all I did was took old BB apart, which could be a nightmare if you don't have the tools, or its seized... etc, then line up the motor plates BB holes (with motor already bolted to the plates) put BB, tighten to stun and the motor is already in place. Use an ISIS BB, seriously!! this is HUGE, people don't understand that Mid-Drives HATE FLEX!! any FLEX, and the square taper BBs have a lot of play in the bearings, which translates in throwing chains. When I upgraded to an ISIS BB with a Cyclone 3 chainring crank it made my crapo GNG kit not throw chains anymore... so the difference in BB's is huge. The splined ISIS BB doesn't allow for a single bit of play on the crank so there, I said it. Also make sure the BB flanges holding the plates are tightened to stun... seriously this is also VERY IMPORTANT: the motor shouldn't fall on its own weight when the hose clamp is not attached... in fact the motor should be impossible to move with "forceful hands" while just held by the BB holding flanges; again this is key.

As for power, not sure what to say, but the kit is going to be snappy on the throttle no matter what: you're taking 2000+ watts on 12S and 3000+ on 72Vl; heck I even said it on my quick write up: with a 36T-32T (cassette/crank) is an instant flip if you punch the throttle for more than a fraction of a second. Now, the throttle I got is actually really smooth; again, at least the one I got... maybe not all throttles are the same. The one I have is branded ORO, silvery looking... smoothest of all throttles I've tried, and I've tried 8 of these already... the GNG was the worst offender... it shattered the piss out of the drivetrain with just a hint of giving it throttle... not the case of the one I got.

I am also running mine on 12S lipo, not on 72V or anything insane beyond that, so I am not sure how well it would fare at 72V; but truth is that this kit is already stupid fast on 48V, so I can't imagine at 72... and running this kit at 72V IMO is pointless, at that point one might as well just buy a dirt motorbike...

I am not super-experienced but this is my 3rd ebike build...

-I've built a Gen2 GNG mid drive and that was a real nightmare; 3+ days of work to get it just to work without throwing chains, had to modify everything on it; agian, threw chains left-right, flexed like a cheap can, throttle was insta-snap... etc... everything ended up breaking on the kit, the BB, the crank freewheel, motor shaft, planetary clutch, ... its now sitting as paperweight on my garage.
-Then I've built one of those 24V generic mid drives with brushed motors on eBay, has much less flex, overall was a much faster install took me 3 hours to install and it worked right out of the box, no chain throwing... smooth, smooth throttle... etc... is not as powerful as mine but now I have it running on 48V and my son has clocked 100 miles on it without much of a hitch... albeit occasionally has thrown a chain here or there...
-After I got feed up with GNG turd, I got the Cyclone kit from Luna Cycle after really eyeing the BBSHD... but losing the 3-chainrings for me was a big NO-NO; so I took a leap of faith and ordered the Cyclone, to my amazement it went in without a hitch in about 4 hours (not counting clean-up and removal of the old crap) Everything lined up... things just worked.... not sure how to explain it.

G.

@gman1971

i think that write up might have changed my mind from the BBSHD too. I am particularly taken by your saying it was a simple install. I have emailed the guys at Lunacycle and was told

"The cyclone is an advanced build with no instructions or support"

and

It’s cheaper because it is. It’s an extremely powerful and inexpensive kit. It has baffled and stumped experienced builders. I just chatted last night with a veteran builder that post on Facebook having spent the entire day getting it setup right. Only to discover the throttle was extremely jumpy with all the power.
He like it, but found it difficult.
I really strongly encourage some more research. We even go so far as to post a warning on the sale page. We’re more than happy to sell them. Don’t get me wrong, they are a barrel of laughs.
The Cyclone is a fast beast. It’s illegal on the road in most municipalities, it’s extremely powerful and tends to jump out on the throttle. Where as the Bafang is very civilized. Cyclone bare bones power, Bafang powerful and smooth.
Hope that helps!

You're experience seems totally different from these warning!?

This will be my first ebike and I am hoping to do it myself. A simple to follow install guide would be superb if you can manage one!

 

[gman1971]

A simple to follow install guide would be superb if you can manage one!

Note the builder has already done a GNG is also technically adept enough to use lipo, and you're already wanting easier to follow instructions. :wink: I still believe the BBSHD is far more refined and better suited to a majority of mid drive users. I'm going to do it just because I'm curious and only now that I have more than a dozen builds under the belt.

yea, to me seems more and more hyped up rave reviews coming the same rate as the bbshd got when it first came out.

for the only side for it, is you can't place a torque sensor on it, but i was thinking, perhaps if the plates were longer, to allow clearance for the pedal for (128 mm bb) , the freewheel, maybe shifting the motor left or right.., placing the charinring insread of a bashguard.

This is not a hyped review. I am glad that finally something worked as advertised. I want a reliable bike, b/c this is my car, and the GNG turd was not reliable, period. The BBSHD seems like another money pit... in a daily commuter you want overbuilt drivertrain to withstand the day after day abuse, and a single plastic gear on the gearbox with no possiblity of making it solid steel was a huge NO-NO for me. The Cyclone can be upgraded to steel planetary gears, or run two plastic and one steel planetary gear for a 100% bulletproof transmission.

To summarize my experience is that this thing has gone in 140 miles further and gotten to places where the GNG Gen2 simply couldn't dream to get, in over ~1400 miles of use. I have no affiliation with Luna, GNG, Cyclone or Bafang. I don't really care about brands all I want my bike to work when I plug the batteries and to date, this "humble" sub 400 dollar Cyclone kit has delivered on that with flying colors. Back when I was running the GNG Gen2, around the same mileage I have now on the Cyclone (140 miles) my GNG Gen2 had already broken the crank freewheel, broken the chain tensioner and snapped the motor shaft...

I guess this kit is not for everyone, but the truth is that there isn't much difference between installing this and the BBSHD; you're dealing with the extra chain, fine, which can be a nightmare if you don't know how to deal with that... On the flip side, you are not locked by marked up proprietary parts, components, etc..., which I personally don't like... I want my kit to do exactly what I want, not what someone else thought what I want...

G.

 

[emaayan]

perhaps i mis-used the word hyped, (i'm from israel) , maybe excited is more like it, i'm mainly from ESFB, and every other post i keep seeing someone else getting excited over their new BBSHD, as well as rave reviews . and now i'm seeing the same thing with cyclone.

the use of propriety parts for reduction is also the same reason i avoided the BBS, (even though i might need to get one for being stealth) but that's the reason i went for gng 2015 (not the gen2) it's "barbaric design" without planetary gears allows for off the shelf consumable, and even to change them to better ones in some cases ,i made long long long way doing it, but at least it's designed allowed me to do that.

i'm running it now at 1500w ,(previously at 2000w).

 

[Tyler durden]

Great stuff. Some questions.

What bike have you installed it on?

Would this be a good BB to switch the one from the kit for? http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/fsa-platinum-isis-drive-bottom-bracket-id87026.html?gclid=CKq2pPvcu8oCFRcYGwod83IMSw

 

[gman1971]

perhaps i mis-used the word hyped, (i'm from israel) , maybe excited is more like it, i'm mainly from ESFB, and every other post i keep seeing someone else getting excited over their new BBSHD, as well as rave reviews . and now i'm seeing the same thing with cyclone.

the use of propriety parts for reduction is also the same reason i avoided the BBS, (even though i might need to get one for being stealth) but that's the reason i went for gng 2015 (not the gen2) it's "barbaric design" without planetary gears allows for off the shelf consumable, and even to change them to better ones in some cases ,i made long long long way doing it, but at least it's designed allowed me to do that.

i'm running it now at 1500w ,(previously at 2000w).

Good to know, sorry for jumping the gun.

Truth is that I wanted something compact, and the BBSHD was almost it, if you could put two chainrings. The GNG mid-drive with all the stuff exposed wasn't something I wanted... again, too many things exposed. Then I realized how bad GNG quality was after I got this cyclone kit, and remembered that LightningRod went through the same thing I went through: had to change everything for it to "just work", b/c nothing worked out of the box... and fixing my ebike every 100 miles gots old really fast. The Cyclone kit allows me to run 2000W sustained power climbing uphill and ~1500 sustained cruising on flats without the motor case temperature going over 25C (with -5F outside); the GNG case temp at 1500W peak 1200W sustained was ~60C with -5F outside, and 75C at the coils...) so no thanks... no more GNG for me.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Great stuff. Some questions.

What bike have you installed it on?

Would this be a good BB to switch the one from the kit for? http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/fsa-platinum-isis-drive-bottom-bracket-id87026.html?gclid=CKq2pPvcu8oCFRcYGwod83IMSw

Not really, it doesn't have flanges on both sides and is not wide enough to clear the motor on the left pedal crank arm. You need something like this guy: (notice the flanges on both sides of the BB.

which can be found here:

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-chainwheel.htm

37 bucks, or around what, 20 UK pouds?

I've installed it on a DiamondBack Response 2013. (here is the bike with the old GNG gen2 kit on it...)

G.

 

[gman1971]

Here is my bike as of this past weekend after getting the kit installed.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Here are the bolts that need to be red loctited so they don't come lose. I have zero flex at 2100 watts on mine. (this is looking from the back bottom)

And here is where you need to place a bunch of washers to fix the flexing support. This added a considerable amount of torsional rigidity. (in BLUE)

G.

 

[evolutiongts]

The stock spacer that comes with the motor is junk, mine bent only after a few miles

 

[lantice13]

All of you guys that are having jumpy throttles, I suggest upgrading to a proper programable controller that you can tweak the battery and phase amps ratio to something that starts smooth when you throttle up. this will save your gear box and bike drivetrain from having issues due to the tremendous amount of torque this kit has. Most probably the stock controller are configured for direct drive hub motor which requires a higher battery to phase amps ratio to turn that massive bicycle wheel without any reduction. In a mid drive you really don't need that as you already have all that reduction and the motor spinning easily from standstill. This is also applicable to the GNG and other Cyclone mid drives out there. How do I know? you don't wanna know lol, but got trails of parts to prove it till I found threads about controller tuning.