new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

cbobgo,

its looks like you have plenty of space above the BB shell -- the triangle. Try the location out -- I see no problems if you can get all of it to fit. If you have a front derailleur there may not be enough space for both it and the motor frame sheet.

 

[gman1971]

G yeah the cassette hub it just wobbles a bit. Not sure if it can be replaced on it's own. :/

Bob no reason that will be a problem if it fits in the gap!

Hmmm, wobbles side to side? Perhaps the splined locking nut needs to be tightened a bit? I've seen it wobble on my ebike and was due to the cassette lockring being lose... you could always check that; you can always add a washer to the lockring so it puts increased pressure on the 1st cog thus preventing the wobble.

Also, worth mentioning that it was suggested (don't remember where) using a ziptie to hold the cassette to the spokes of the wheel so the freewheel won't freewheel when you let go the gas (since you have already the crank freewheel anyways) thus being able to shift at speed without having to pedal... not sure if this is related, just throwing some ideas.

Tightening the lockring/nut is worth a try.

I've also found that different hubs makes do make a noticeable difference in terms of construction and "wobbliness"; I still have the cheap 1st cassette rear wheel (no disc) that I used on my first GNG ebike and that one isn't as tight to begin with as the Shimano Deore hub I have now on the same (now Cyclone) eBike, the difference is noticeable in terms of smoothness and the splines/grooves are larger on the Deore hub.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Well, it should fit, but two things:
-most likely You will have to lose the chainguard on the bike.
-what kind of BB is on the bike? I see this as a potential problem. You can take it to a local bike shop and ask them what kind of BB is on the bike, if its not an IS threaded BB the you might have to look for another option... I recall Juanfeli (he who posted earlier on this thread) didn't have good luck with a threadless BB... just some thoughts.

G.

Hello Cyclone 3000 fans and gurus. I have purchased the Luna cyclone kit, and am planning to install it on my Nirve Streetking. I have one question for you all:

Is there any reason that I can't install it above the frame, instead of its usual position below the frame?

Please see the attached pic, and I apologize for my poor graphic skills.

- bob

 

[le15otl]

G yeah the cassette hub it just wobbles a bit. Not sure if it can be replaced on it's own. :/

Bob no reason that will be a problem if it fits in the gap!

Hmmm, wobbles side to side? Perhaps the splined locking nut needs to be tightened a bit? I've seen it wobble on my ebike and was due to the cassette lockring being lose... you could always check that; you can always add a washer to the lockring so it puts increased pressure on the 1st cog thus preventing the wobble.

Also, worth mentioning that it was suggested (don't remember where) using a ziptie to hold the cassette to the spokes of the wheel so the freewheel won't freewheel when you let go the gas (since you have already the crank freewheel anyways) thus being able to shift at speed without having to pedal... not sure if this is related, just throwing some ideas.

Tightening the lockring/nut is worth a try.

I've also found that different hubs makes do make a noticeable difference in terms of construction and "wobbliness"; I still have the cheap 1st cassette rear wheel (no disc) that I used on my first GNG ebike and that one isn't as tight to begin with as the Shimano Deore hub I have now on the same (now Cyclone) eBike, the difference is noticeable in terms of smoothness and the splines/grooves are larger on the Deore hub.

G.

Yep it wobbles side to side, and I did think it was a lose lockring at first but tightened it that and it still happened. The whole freehub is lose somehow, i think bearings must be worn.

Interesting about zip tieing it to the cogs, it makes sense to do that. Would probably allow for faster shifts. If I used a lot of ties it might even prevent some wobble.

 

[gman1971]

It could be the extra side load, some freehubs bearings use only radial bearings so any side load will wear the races and thus making the feel wobbly...

Given your response I assume the cassette isn't moving, right?, and its the entire freehub, or does the cassette itself move separate from the freehub? (cassette feels lose over the splines) If the cassette is moving but the freehub seems to be tight then a washer/spacer might be a good solution. Perhaps you could take it apart and see?

G.

 

[robocam]

What rear hub do you have?

G yeah the cassette hub it just wobbles a bit. Not sure if it can be replaced on it's own. :/

Bob no reason that will be a problem if it fits in the gap!

 

[cbobgo]

hey thanks for the feedback on my build with the cyclone and Nirve Streetking. I have not tried to take the BB apart yet, so I'm not sure on the details there. I've got a buddy who is more bike-savy, he will be helping me out.

Here's my next issue. I apologize for my noobishness. When I look at my connector between the motor and controller, it only goes together one way, but the wire colors do not match (yellow goes to green and green goes to yellow). is this the way it is supposed to be?

- bob

 

[robocam]

Hi!

Yes, the colors are supposed to be that way. It messed me up when I was making an extension when I couldn't figure out why my middrive wasn't working lol. Btw, feel free to ask anything!

hey thanks for the feedback on my build with the cyclone and Nirve Streetking. I have not tried to take the BB apart yet, so I'm not sure on the details there. I've got a buddy who is more bike-savy, he will be helping me out.

Here's my next issue. I apologize for my noobishness. When I look at my connector between the motor and controller, it only goes together one way, but the wire colors do not match (yellow goes to green and green goes to yellow). is this the way it is supposed to be?

- bob

 

[le15otl]

Yeah there's no movement between the cassette in the splines, that's all ok.

Robocam it's specialized stout.
I don't like or recommend this wheelset anymore, snapped a spoke just now. talk about ongoing problems

 

[gman1971]

I broke a spoke on one of those so-called "affordable" wheelset within 150 miles of new... turns out most of those are just built and the spoke tension is never checked when let go out the door, so according to the LBS mech the unsuspecting customer runs them and they go untrue right away and they are, for all practical purposes, done at that point; especially so for high power eBike application like the Cyclone.

I am having excellent results with the Vuelta Zerolite Pro 26" MTB rear wheel 24 spoke on the trike, the wheel rim remains true as an arrow and the freehub is "free" of any wobble or play in the 600 miles I have clocked on the trike. (And since I have at trike I can't speak how good the front rim is)

G.

 

[gman1971]

Looks like those hubs are prone to "Bearing failure" so that might be part of the problem...

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/hub/specialized/stout-front-hub/prd_352162_127crx.aspx

 

[gman1971]

hey thanks for the feedback on my build with the cyclone and Nirve Streetking. I have not tried to take the BB apart yet, so I'm not sure on the details there. I've got a buddy who is more bike-savy, he will be helping me out.

Here's my next issue. I apologize for my noobishness. When I look at my connector between the motor and controller, it only goes together one way, but the wire colors do not match (yellow goes to green and green goes to yellow). is this the way it is supposed to be?

- bob

Interesting, none of my two Cyclone bikes have the phase colors reverse, so I am not sure how this is possible... UNLESS... unless the HALL connector was installed wrong at first and they had to switch the phases when the motor was tested (and found not spin)

G.

 

[cbobgo]

Thanks for the info. So is there a specific reason that the colors do not match up? I assume with the rest of the kit I am supposed to match colors, right? red to red and black to black between the battery and controller?

- bob

Hi!

Yes, the colors are supposed to be that way. It messed me up when I was making an extension when I couldn't figure out why my middrive wasn't working lol. Btw, feel free to ask anything!

hey thanks for the feedback on my build with the cyclone and Nirve Streetking. I have not tried to take the BB apart yet, so I'm not sure on the details there. I've got a buddy who is more bike-savy, he will be helping me out.

Here's my next issue. I apologize for my noobishness. When I look at my connector between the motor and controller, it only goes together one way, but the wire colors do not match (yellow goes to green and green goes to yellow). is this the way it is supposed to be?

- bob

 

[robocam]

You're welcome. Most other connections should be as expected except maybe the throttle wires but you don't have to worry about that unless you're doing something custom. Everything should work if you plug all the connectors together. I have no idea why they did it that way.

Thanks for the info. So is there a specific reason that the colors do not match up? I assume with the rest of the kit I am supposed to match colors, right? red to red and black to black between the battery and controller?

- bob

Hi!

Yes, the colors are supposed to be that way. It messed me up when I was making an extension when I couldn't figure out why my middrive wasn't working lol. Btw, feel free to ask anything!

... wire colors do not match (yellow goes to green and green goes to yellow). is this the way it is supposed to be?

- bob

 

[robocam]

I would recommend removing the freehub body to see where the problem is. You might need a new freehub body. Are there any bearing cones on your hub that you can adjust?

This may help. You might also try Googling "Specialized Stout freehub."

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12868983

Video that may or may not apply to your specific hub.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f19BGYc5ysA

What I'd like to know is if there is still movement when the axle is removed (not just the skewer). If there is still movement, you probably need a new freehub body.

Yeah there's no movement between the cassette in the splines, that's all ok.

Robocam it's specialized stout.
I don't like or recommend this wheelset anymore, snapped a spoke just now. talk about ongoing problems

 

[DingusMcGee]

The part of the freewheel cassette et al with the pawls [mini grippers] that holds the cassette of chain rings on the rear wheel is called [generically] a carrier. Shimano carriers [3 pawls] are not readily disassemblable and a replacement cost about $23. You probably can add oil along the circular rim of the fixed part of the carrier and some of this lube will work it way to the pawls. I suggest if you must lube use only synthetic lube as at low temps the pawls become sluggish and you get a free spinning freewheel that you think has broken pawls. A heat gun can get 'em up and working sometimes if temps are not too low. I no longer add any oil to carriers.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Once I did some torque tests to measure how much torque the pawls of the freewheel can withstand. This test was done on a Shimano Carrier. The task was harder than I had imagined. Bike tools for gripping etc do not hold up to this level of torque and bend. Finally I got the setup fixed in a big Wilton vice -- cheater bars and all. At about 600 ft-lb or less of torque the pawls would no longer release but still gripped. For the sake of trying to determine failure level this non releasing qualified to stop the test. The spokes all had an odd deflection or permanent set to them and were no longer straight.

This one bit of test data is an odd baseline but still of some worth. Here is why. I was seeking catastrophic failure of the pawls so the measurement is higher than where the pawls cease to return and less than catastrophic failure of the pawls. But a carrier that cannot freewheel is almost worthless yet it still might get you home.

The C-3000 motor at 52v 42 am can deliver to the outer tire edge [traction surface] on a 50% grade about 112 lb and likely little more as it quite bogged down on this hill and cannot accelerate any. The OD of this tire measures in at 13.25" so the torque seen by the pawls is 112 x 13.25/12 = 123.67 ft lb torque.

SF = 600/ 123.67 = 4 ? [question mark because we have only one test]

If we assume new Shimano carriers have pawls that are of 600ft-lb torque or more, what is breaking them on steep hill climbs with brickwalling as I have broken 2 set of carriers while doing this kind of riding. The only other force that the motor produces other than the emf force, applicable is the rapid reduction of motor rpm under full throttle due to brickwalling or simply the inertial force of very rapid angular momentum change. I call this inertial force drive train shock loading.

It deserves mentioning that both these 2 pawl failures and one belt failure on LR SM Block happened during a serious brickwalling encounter. Riding the smooth 50% grade is child's play loading compared to these encounters.

 

[gman1971]

Or considering what I've read in regards to this hub I would consider a new complete hub and relace the wheel, 60 dollars at my local bike shop, or buy a new wheel altogether...

G.

I would recommend removing the freehub body to see where the problem is. You might need a new freehub body. Are there any bearing cones on your hub that you can adjust?

This may help. You might also try Googling "Specialized Stout freehub."

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12868983

Video that may or may not apply to your specific hub.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f19BGYc5ysA

What I'd like to know is if there is still movement when the axle is removed (not just the skewer). If there is still movement, you probably need a new freehub body.

Yeah there's no movement between the cassette in the splines, that's all ok.

Robocam it's specialized stout.
I don't like or recommend this wheelset anymore, snapped a spoke just now. talk about ongoing problems

 

[robocam]

I spent some time playing with my CA3 yesterday, so I thought I'd mention a few things. I have my throttle directly connected to the CA. I like how you can change the throttle input/output voltages. For example, I can set the throttle to output 1V to the controller when the throttle is actually putting out 0.8V. This way I can use the full range of the throttle.

One thing I've noticed about the Cyclone's controller is that when you use speed setting 3, the controller has a different voltage rise rate depending on your throttle position. Basically, if you use speed settings 1 or 2, the throttle behaves like you'd expect, but in speed setting 3, if you gun it (max throttle) the motor first spins up to a certain RPM and sits there for a moment, and then it goes to maximum speed. I mention this because this delay in throttle response makes it difficult for the CA to control the system. In speed settings 1 and 2, this is not an issue.

The speed limiter works pretty good. This is mainly why I bought the CA. If you use it, you'd probably want to set it up like a rev limiter on a car. You don't ride the limit, but it's there to keep things safe. The reason I say this is because while it tries to keep it smooth, your speed still varies a little at the limit.

The current/power limiting is fun. I tried different power settings to feel what it's like to have a certain system, such as my previous belt-driven GNG setup at 21A. It does a pretty good job of keeping it smooth. I'll still have to play with the A-gain and P-gain settings because when I punch the throttle, it surges a little before it decides to start limiting the throttle (and by a little, I mean just a fraction of a second). If you punch the throttle while you're already going, it does not surge. I'm not sure if this is an issue with overshoot or if it will always do this. I will report back new findings as I try different settings. It may also have to do with the throttle programming of the Cyclone's controller.

I think I now agree with Gman that the best way to set limits is to get a programmable controller. This way you don't have to deal with how the Cyclone thinks your throttle response should behave. I wonder if there is somehow the Cyclone's throttle programming can be bypassed.

Another thing I've noticed that's odd (to me) is that I can go up a hill faster when I am in a higher gear. Now that I have a CA, I can see that if I'm in a higher gear, the motor draws a lot more power. I'll have to run some controlled experiments.

Anyway, that's it for now. I'll report back after I've played with it some more, but so far I like it. I just wish it had a lot more buttons. The optional POT should not be optional. There should be mode switches on it.

 

[gman1971]

Good review, Robocam, and greatly appreciated.

For me CA2.4 was decent at best, so looks from your review that CA3 is a lot better than the CA2.4 was for me... With that said tho, it wasn't the silk smooth experience that I was expecting, and the throttle hunting you also describe drove me crazy, and then, since I also run mode #3 exclusively now you see another reason why I decided to abandon the idea. Then the almost runwaway trike was the last nail in the coffin... so now I use my gears to limit speed and a simple SPDT 2 speed switch on my HOTAS to control the motor speed/power... so even with a shunt modded controller to run 6 kW the trike can be tamed quite a bit, or if you romp it it will go into ballistic performance and hit 60 mph... On the HOTAS I have 6 toggles switches, 5 push-on buttons and one Pot; two of the HOTAS buttons control the CA so I was able to change the parameters on the fly, and even with that option, I still preferred the controller governing capabilities over the CA, and the gears to limit my speed over CA as well.

I agree the pot should be included, not optional.

G.

 

[le15otl]

Freehub body is definitely loose. Apparently they can be replaced but it would prob be more than a new wheel. Might try replace bearings otherwise maybe get a DH wheel. Thanks for the vid I'd watched that one just before

 

[gman1971]

@le15otl
Might as well buy a new wheel if its going to be that expensive.

So, one more of those "Facebook worthy" updates. I did some additional fairing work on the trike, which has knocked about 100 watts from cruising @ 30mph. I've tested this over the same stretch of road a few times so I am pretty certain its the aero shapes I've built for certain parts of the trike that have made this happen so I am happy that with 3 dollars worth of molded plastic I can extend the range.

The second trike will begin construction this Thursday, as the new frame is scheduled to arrive this Th; once its assembled I'll run it for the time being with a small 500W brushed motor I have lying around until I decide whether to get another Cyclone 3000W or try the Cyclone 7500W kit... the ruthless pursuit of speed.

G.

 

[le15otl]

Woww man the cyclone 7500w on a trike! might get 100mph if you push the motor hard
I hope your roads aren't packed with potholes like they are here.

 

[gman1971]

Woww man the cyclone 7500w on a trike! might get 100mph if you push the motor hard
I hope your roads aren't packed with potholes like they are here.

There are a few potholes too, unfortunately; I think 100 would be awesome, but ~70 mph would be a more realistic number for the 7500W kit on my trike... maybe with a lot of aero work or a velomobile body it could get there the "smarter way" (rather than the brute force way)

To do 100 mph would require almost 8 times the ~5kW power it currently requires at 58, so that will put it in the ~40kW neighborhood; it would require more than pushing the 7500w kit hard to do so... I think the only way my trikes will ever reach that kind of speed is if throw them from a plane... LOL

G.

 

[le15otl]

Will be good fun however fast!

I've installed a new motor freewheel and the side plates holding the cog have separated a bit causing the bearings to be exposed and the cog to wobble. Anyone know if there's a good way to tighten the motor freewheel?