new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

Apex,

Get a clue: it does not become for your term smart weight [great euphemism] -- It is extra plain dead inertia on your body [ you do need the weight strapped to your body and it has no sense of direction where to move on its own] and on the back it provides the longest lever arm when balancing moments come into play. In difficult terrain we are likely standing on the pedals and putting body english into the bike for right and left control. A lighter body with the same muscle strength moves easier and faster without a plumb weight penduluming on him. Do you understand the physics of moments?

And with the pack down low, the moment arm get the shortest lever arm when balancing moments come into play. They do have instantaneous centers about the wheels points of contact.

And a comment about your strawman argument: IF battery packs are both properly spot welded, glued together and hopefully at hexagonal packing they can easily take this loading from a full suspension bike just as good as your ass on the seat can. Simply put, the life of battery has nothing to do with how the bike handles.

Unless you put the battery in the tire, it is all unsprung weight [rider battery and bike frame w/mid drivemotor].

 

[Apex]

Ass on the seat?

Yeah, your not going to be able to take advantage of using your body to improve handling if your sitting on the seat the whole time.
Just like on a motorcycle on a roadcourse, your never sitting on the seat unless your tucked in, going down the straights.

We can just disagree and leave it at that.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Apex,

again we do not see trials riders, motocross, enduro or hill climbers adding/changing weight to get it on their backs so they have better control. For one that cites watching motorcycles races you must have missed this lack of them carrying a backpack -- to get more smart control -- simply stupid.

Build a inboard pack and try it then you will have an experience base to make sensible comparisons.

 

[Apex]

How many of these riders are sitting when encountering obstacles this vid.

https://youtu.be/bVHchm5NIZc

Seems to me they are using their body to improve handling, moving forward and back, side to side, altering the center of gravity to suit the current needs of the terrain. That's how I see it.

As far as my "strawman" argument, you practically admitted that it is a valid point by claiming that if a pack is built correctly the extra stress shouldn't matter. Therefore you agree there is extra stress?

Furthermore, I believe if you were to tell the racers on that vid that they had to take a ten pond stone down the course with them, but they can choose to strap it on the bike or choose to carry it in a backpack, I'm betting they would choose the backpack.

So, go ahead and reply, maybe throw an insult or two in the response if you think it helps prove your point. I'm done feeding your need to beat down any opinions that oppose yours.

Have a good morning, sir.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Apex,

you pulled this idea of me sitting on difficult air out of thin air. Another straw man argument but the premise is your lame assumption about how I ride.

FYI a strawman argument can be true as a fact but in this case it is inapplicable to argue longer battery life, meaning less battery stress, makes for better handling. There is no cause and effect relationship here. If you would carry the tires in your pack they would get less stress too. But would it improve handling. Not likely.

Insults:?? you accuse me riding on the seat for difficult terrain == blow somewhere else.

 

[Apex]

Let's continue this conversation in PMs, so we are not cluttering up this thread.
PM sent, DingusMcGee.

 

[2old]

Good thing Camelback didn't know that nobody would move weight from the frame to their back.

 

[DingusMcGee]

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[DingusMcGee]

Apex,

no Pm's, this is place where people can see YOUR arguments if you can give any VALID ONES why a battery in THE backpack is better for handling THAN low ON THE FRAME.

And BTW you seemed to have somehow granted yourself the evidence that I ride rough terrain sitting down....No where did I make that statement Make up what need to carry on another STRAWMAN ARGUMENT line of attack..

But get me a worthy opponent to carry on this discussion.............. Your credentials that you sent me via PM have little to do with you or anyone's skill at making good judgements as I do not care what your credentials are as I can dissect any line bull to separate the gem from the fodder. Most of what you say is fodder and made up.

 

[Apex]

Hi there.

 

[MarkLeeds]

+1 for keeping the weight as low and as central as possible imho. I do a bit of offroad motorcycle racing, the bike manufacturers spend a fortune on r&d trying to achieve this.

 

[Dogboy1200]

I keep my battery in my back pack for better handling. When I ride aggressively off road the CG of my body and battery follow a very different path then that of the CG of my bike. For example most tight single track trials I ride switch back and forth left to right. As I follow these trials I throw my bike from my left side to right and vice a versa. During each of these manuvers the CG of the bike moves about a couple feet more than the CG of my body and battery. It all happens quicker and with less effort the lighter the bike is and the added weight on my back has little effect on my ability to throw the bike from side to side. That's what seems to work best for me.

 

[Apex]

Mark,
I definately agree that centralizing the mass within the frame will lower the moment of inertia, which is a good thing.
I never claimed that a overly high center of gravity is good. However, I don't see carrying the battery in a backpack as increasing the CoG, as far as how the bike sees it. In fact, all the weight of the rider interacts with the bike through the pedals, or footpegs, which is, in fact lower than a pack in the triangle.
As far as stability is concerned, on sportbikes, racing aircraft, sportscars, ect, stability slows you down, instability improves handling. It seems counterintuitive, but it's true.

 

[DingusMcGee]

However, I don't see carrying the battery in a backpack as increasing the CoG,

This statement pretty pegs the fact that Apex has no idea what CG means or how you find it. An Absolutely Clueless Exhibit.

Dogboy1200,

you have given us a description of what you do when you ride a bike with a battery backpack as proof that such a way is best and yet you tell us nothing about what this ride would be like if you had built a low CG battery pack between the wheels. Why? ZERO EXPERIENCE. This is the funny -- description now qualifies as critical assessment? How about some numbers and diagrams like you provided for us when you built you frame stiffener bracing? Reminded me of an oil derrick.

 

[Apex]

Hi there DingusMcGee, hope your having a good day.

 

[Dogboy1200]

However, I don't see carrying the battery in a backpack as increasing the CoG,

This statement pretty pegs the fact that Apex has no idea what CG means or how you find it. An Absolutely Clueless Exhibit.

Dogboy1200,

you have given us a description of what you do when you ride a bike with a battery backpack as proof that such a way is best and yet you tell us nothing about what this ride would be like if you had built a low CG battery pack between the wheels. Why? ZERO EXPERIENCE. This is the funny -- description now qualifies as critical assessment? How about some numbers and diagrams like you provided for us when you built you frame stiffener bracing? Reminded me of an oil derrick.

Your assessment of my experience is incorrect. I had my battery mounted On my bike for a time and found it difficult to throw the bike around with all the weight I added. I ride the same trials all the time and I am faster and less fatigued with my back pack battery. So I can only surmise that you tried both the back pack battery and bike mounted battery and timed yourself (as I regularly do) on trials your familiar with and prefered the bike mount battery. To each his own.

 

[robocam]

But that only applies to weight that MUST be on the bike (such as components). Weight off of the bike is even better.

+1 for keeping the weight as low and as central as possible imho. I do a bit of offroad motorcycle racing, the bike manufacturers spend a fortune on r&d trying to achieve this.

 

[robocam]

Dogboy's got it right! You hit the nail on its head! The lighter the bike, the easier it is to flick it around. For mountain bikers, this is key.

How many cells are in your battery? I'm trying to find the ideal size to carry.

I keep my battery in my back pack for better handling. When I ride aggressively off road the CG of my body and battery follow a very different path then that of the CG of my bike. For example most tight single track trials I ride switch back and forth left to right. As I follow these trials I throw my bike from my left side to right and vice a versa. During each of these manuvers the CG of the bike moves about a couple feet more than the CG of my body and battery. It all happens quicker and with less effort the lighter the bike is and the added weight on my back has little effect on my ability to throw the bike from side to side. That's what seems to work best for me.

 

[robocam]

I agree with this. Stability means resistance to change. On a mountain bike, you want to be able to change its position as quickly as possible. On a motorcycle or any craft that is significantly heavier than a typical bicycle, you are a passenger following whatever path it takes you on, but on the mountain bike, it's an extension of your hands and feet or gloves and shoes, and you certainly don't want those to impede your movement. It's like inline skates. Do you want them to weigh a ton? Of course not.

...As far as stability is concerned, on sportbikes, racing aircraft, sportscars, ect, stability slows you down, instability improves handling. It seems counterintuitive, but it's true.

 

[DingusMcGee]

robocam,

it is significantly heavier than the rider,

Get a clue a 175 cc tail bike may weigh 179 lbs or less. This is not significantly heavier than a rider of Gmans girth.


It is not like as you claim, as, once you are riding the bike, you are part of the whole system and the laws physics apply to all constructs on that system. So your system has a much higher CG and it takes more force/moment to maneuver left or right ,

it's an extension of your hands and feet or gloves and shoes

but with more weight and moment when you add the weight to your back. Can you see that this is an addition problem? Heavier shoes make your feet harder to move and a heavier back area from using a backpack on it makes the body in the back area harder to move --[using your words]

you certainly don't want those to impede your movement.

And if so why would one carry a battery in backpack. Think here, just maybe ... to impede your movement ??

Hey Robo how about trying to start making some sense? It is fun for me to use what you say to justify my point of view. Can you give me some more of this kind of "knowledge"?

 

[Apex]

In truth, when you break down the physics of a cycle, there is all kinds of stuff your brain is doing that you don't ever realize.
For example, on a motorcycle, to turn left you have to turn the handlebars right. In fact, you never turn the handlebars left to turn left.
Once you settle into a corner and carve into the vector you wish, you have to turn the handlebars left to get out of the lefthand corner. The higher the speed the more you have to force the bike to respond, due to gyroscopic force. This is a huge consideration on sportbikes on the track or highway.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

on second thought from what you have said is seems unlikely you could write the equations of motion for an ebike in these 2 cases: battery low and battery in backpack as you fail to grasp the system idea.

 

[robocam]

Another thing I just realized is that weight on a bike can be thought of as partially unsprung weight (despite the suspension on the bike because your arms and legs also act as part of the suspension), and we all know that unsprung weight reduces your available traction when the terrain gets rough. It's easy to see when you look at how the arms and legs of a mountain biker react to trail input.

I'm glad we're having this discussion. The more I analyze the physics of the system, the more I realize and understand why it's important to transfer nonessential weight from the bike to the rider, and one of the best ways to start is by placing the battery in a backpack.

 

[robocam]

And it looks like Karl agrees.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/06/02/battery-on-your-back-or-battery-on-the-bike-which-works-best-for-you/

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Dingus, have you tried trail riding with a ~10lb backpack battery (and removed the equivalent weight battery off your bike)?