new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[robocam]

It's not a dumb question at all. Adding a simple plate to hold the side of the motor should be enough to make it more than adequate for most users.

I just skimmed read 39 pages of info on this kit and am working on installing mine on an old Trek 8000 Hardtail. I have one boneheaded question that makes me wonder if I am missing something - is there a reason why everyone is trying to stiffen the bottom bracket mount instead of just installing a second mount at the front of the motor to the downtube of the bike? It seems like the motor would torque/twist and you get the best lever arm to stop the twist by making a second mounting point at the front. Seems like you could also eliminate the super high tech hose clamp and also maybe the chain tensioner.

 

[robocam]

I'm using a 24" cable tie from Harbor Freight. It's been working great, and it protects my frame from the motor. Here's a picture of it.

Maybe its just me, but as soon as I see things like hose clamps I lose interest in something that goes on a bike.

 

[robocam]

If I were you, I'd just use the included bottom bracket until something wears out. Who knows. It may last a very long time, and a bottom bracket doesn't suddenly, catastrophically fail, so safety isn't an issue.

OH, can anyone give me some info on the ISIS setup? My bike came with square drive. Does the ISIS setup improve reliability of the power transfer from the crank to the rear. or is it purely to have a more secure mount for the crank arms only? That is about a $70 upgrade, and I am just wondering if it is worth it.

 

[gman1971]

And I have an aluminum frame. Doesn't welding to an aluminum frame weaken it (effectively canceling any heat treatment it may have received)? Since my frame is hydroformed, I'd be afraid to make any modifications to it.

If you have access to a welder the most permanent solution would be to weld two very strong support points to the down tube; this will prevent any movement, but since most ppl don't have access to a welder its kinda hard to do...

I think it depends on how you weld it. The frame is welded, at least mine, so I assume that if u sue the right welder it will be strong enough for the motor... but thats just a thought.

Long time no see you robocam... whats up?

G.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Certainly within a locale, welding anneals the effects of heat treating. Whether this zone of softer material degrades the performance integrity enough to see catastrophic failure depends on the area/ volume of change and how much loading the structure sees. In other words a few electric spot welds would likely have little effect. Some aluminum [composite ?forms] may just collapse under welding so be careful. It is possible to re-heat treat your frame and repaint it.

My personal "rules" are no screw holes and no welding on aluminum in the local high stress zones of the tubes. But since I do not have a TIG welder, I clamp or figure other ways to attach items and distribute forces, loads and torques. As for attachment, most of my ebike setups have been temporary and then I make some major change. I then would have to cut off the attachment weld and look at the burnt paint along with the grinder marks.

Attachments:





Also note the oak pieces clamped above the top tube for the attachment of fixtures. Gear clamps and cable ties rule in my ebike making when they are strong enough. My bikes are not intended to be Cutie Bikes but retain quite a bit of easy access and are subject to hard riding. The rear shock controls are readily accessible and the lower battery can be easily removed.

 

[RageNR]

If I were you, I'd just use the included bottom bracket until something wears out. Who knows. It may last a very long time, and a bottom bracket doesn't suddenly, catastrophically fail, so safety isn't an issue.

I'd just like to know what the differences are. Does the isis BB have larger bearings? Is the stem shorter than the square drive, allowing the bearings to be closer to the crankarm and chainring?
I have searched the forum and the net for a comparison between the two, yet have not found anything. This should be important information available to potential buyers of this kit. At lease in my opinion.
Not afraid to replace the bearings if they should go bad. Would also give you the chance to fit some higher quality ones in there while you are at it.

 

[gman1971]

If I were you, I'd just use the included bottom bracket until something wears out. Who knows. It may last a very long time, and a bottom bracket doesn't suddenly, catastrophically fail, so safety isn't an issue.

I'd just like to know what the differences are. Does the isis BB have larger bearings? Is the stem shorter than the square drive, allowing the bearings to be closer to the crankarm and chainring?
I have searched the forum and the net for a comparison between the two, yet have not found anything. This should be important information available to potential buyers of this kit. At lease in my opinion.
Not afraid to replace the bearings if they should go bad. Would also give you the chance to fit some higher quality ones in there while you are at it.

I have both. I've tested both. Both work, but the ISIS BB I have hasn't developed any lateral play on the bearings after 2000 miles as opposed to the square taper which did after 60 miles. You can move the BB shaft left and right by maybe 1 mm... that is not a lot, but the motor chain could potentially derail because of this issue, especially so if something is doesn't line up correctly. All my eBikes have a Cyclone ISIS BB, including my old wife's GNG Gen2 one...

Also, get the zinc plated freewheel for the crank, not the supplied black one. The so called "heavy duty" black crank freewheel that comes with the Luna kit is utter garbage. I have three of those, the first one came unthreaded and spew its guts (that was partially my fault for not using the washer) and this past weekend another one had enough lateral play to be a concern. The third one brand new had so much wobbliness that it will throw chains left and right, so its useless and its sitting in a box... I might smash it with a hammer at some point.
So I swapped the black one on my trike for the zinc plated freewheel from my 2000 mile Cyclone eBike and the noises are all gone, and it has quiet down the drivetrain, plus the zinc plated doesn't have any lateral play or "wobbliness" even after 2000 miles of heavy use.

G.

 

[Jean_86]

Hi guys, found this very helpfull topic on this amazing forum. Thanks to all for all the shared informations.
I'm going to buy the Cyclone 3000w to build from zero an electric bike, I'll be glad to document all the procedure starting from frame building.
Wondering if someone could post an engine power and torque curves diagram of the Cyclone 3000, looked through the builder website but didn't find anything (looked also into Chupa tables but wanted to know if there's something more).
Buying from Luna i'll take the 1800-3000w version and the standard controller, is it better to consider the kelly one? Anyone tested it with the cyclone yet?
Do you think that the controller from Luna have the regen brake mode?

Thanks, Cya!

 

[robocam]

Hi G! I've been working on a little project. I attached 3 trailers to my bike! It's been lots of fun, but I need ideas to improve my setup. I've towed up to 9 passengers in it, and when I'm going downhill, it's impossible to stop at times if the hill is too steep (I go slow of course for their safety). I'm trying to come up with a way to add braking to one of the trailers. Any ideas? I thought about using a method I've seen on some car trailers where if the trailer pushes against the hitch, it activates the trailer's brakes. I've also thought about a remote controlled brake or a cable-operated brake that clamps the rim of the wheels. Another idea I've thought about is to add two hub motor wheels and use them to power the trailers and add regen braking. Here's a picture of my setup. I see you're working on a second trike now. What kind of motor is on the second one? [strike]On an unrelated note, how do you make images appear instead of just being a link?[/strike]

Long time no see you robocam... whats up?

G.

 

[robocam]

I don't think it has larger bearings because you're limited to the diameter of the bottom bracket. The only difference I'm aware of is the spindle diameter (and it is a little shorter). It is much larger on the ISIS. This can potentially be a bad thing since the bearings have to be smaller, but bearing quality may be a factor as Gman has had a negative experience with his square taper. Since I hardly ever pedal, I probably couldn't wear out one of these bottom brackets.

My reason for going with an ISIS bottom bracket is because of the way the cranks mount to the spindle. For some reason I've always felt that the crank doesn't mount perfectly square to a square taper bottom bracket. I went with an ISIS with the hope that the crankset wouldn't wobble. Mine still wobbles, and it's because of the crankset freewheel. However, this has not caused chain drops.

Here's an article about bottom brackets just in case anyone is interested. It seems to me that unless you're bending spindles, there really isn't any reason not to have a loose-bearing bottom bracket. The bearings are so easy to replace, and the play is easily adjustable. Why do they have to make bike parts so expensive!? They can be so much cheaper and simpler.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/complete-guide-to-bottom-brackets-36660/

I'd just like to know what the differences are. Does the isis BB have larger bearings? Is the stem shorter than the square drive, allowing the bearings to be closer to the crankarm and chainring?
I have searched the forum and the net for a comparison between the two, yet have not found anything. This should be important information available to potential buyers of this kit. At lease in my opinion.
Not afraid to replace the bearings if they should go bad. Would also give you the chance to fit some higher quality ones in there while you are at it.

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman and robocam,

mine still wobbles

Have you looked at this front freewheel hub made by White Industries from Sick Bike Parts at $119.00 ?

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=226

It is warrantied 6 mos. and maybe somewhat better than the Cyclone front freewheel hubs. I suspect it has a bearing somewhat better than the ISIS bearing.

 

[gman1971]

Hi G! I've been working on a little project. I attached 3 trailers to my bike! It's been lots of fun, but I need ideas to improve my setup. I've towed up to 9 passengers in it, and when I'm going downhill, it's impossible to stop at times if the hill is too steep (I go slow of course for their safety). I'm trying to come up with a way to add braking to one of the trailers. Any ideas? I thought about using a method I've seen on some car trailers where if the trailer pushes against the hitch, it activates the trailer's brakes. I've also thought about a remote controlled brake or a cable-operated brake that clamps the rim of the wheels. Another idea I've thought about is to add two hub motor wheels and use them to power the trailers and add regen braking. Here's a picture of my setup. I see you're working on a second trike now. What kind of motor is on the second one? On an unrelated note, how do you make images appear instead of just being a link?

Long time no see you robocam... whats up?

G.

to make images appear you simply wrap them with [#img#]my link goes here[/img##] remove all the # signs and no whitespaces. That will show images.

To add good brakes to the trailers you need hydraulic brakes. Buy a compressor quick disconnect fitting for high pressure and run a T to the rear brake. So when you actuate the rear brake on the bike the brakes on the trailer engages as well. I see you're taking my towing idea to the max. Are you using a triple chainrings? or on the double 48-48?

The 2nd trike is going to be identical to the 1st one except the controller will remain at the stock 40A, it will have some improvements from the experiences I've learn from Alpha One.I debated about going with the 7.5 kW motor but I opted not to, not gonna push my luck any further... 6.5 kW is already stupid fast... and there is a difference between stupid fast and stupid dead... The Alpha Two trike might have even more capacity than Alpha One did as I am contemplating the idea of x6 20,000 packs for a total capacity of 3 kWh. Which will give Alpha Two about 90 miles range at 28 mph average, no pedaling, assuming 32 Wh/mile as Alpha One gets ATM.

G.

 

[gman1971]

gman and robocam,

mine still wobbles

Have you looked at this front freewheel hub made by White Industries from Sick Bike Parts at $119.00 ?

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=226

It is warrantied 6 mos. and maybe somewhat better than the Cyclone front freewheel hubs. I suspect it has a bearing somewhat better than the ISIS bearing.

No, I did not see those freewheels before, so thanks for the link. I must say tho, that for 100 bucks they better be made out of Adamantium!! I think one can get the other crank freewheel (zinc plated) from Cyclone taiwan for like 16 bucks or something like that. The downside is the shipping... so it might be worth getting one of those White Freewheels... see how the perform.

G.

 

[juanfeli]

What brakes do you have?

I'd upgrade the rotor sizes first to 200mm before than modify the trailers and if that doesn't work I'd go for Downhill brakes like Saints or Magura mt7

Hi G! I've been working on a little project. I attached 3 trailers to my bike! It's been lots of fun, but I need ideas to improve my setup. I've towed up to 9 passengers in it, and when I'm going downhill, it's impossible to stop at times if the hill is too steep (I go slow of course for their safety). I'm trying to come up with a way to add braking to one of the trailers. Any ideas? I thought about using a method I've seen on some car trailers where if the trailer pushes against the hitch, it activates the trailer's brakes. I've also thought about a remote controlled brake or a cable-operated brake that clamps the rim of the wheels. Another idea I've thought about is to add two hub motor wheels and use them to power the trailers and add regen braking. Here's a picture of my setup. I see you're working on a second trike now. What kind of motor is on the second one? On an unrelated note, how do you make images appear instead of just being a link?

Long time no see you robocam... whats up?

G.

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman,

I have heard White Industries makes the very best? single speed BMX freewheels at a price also. Anyway I sprang for the White front freewheel hub and 5 other parts. Shipping was $13.00. Sick Parts does have a galvanized front freewheel hub for $19. -- may the Cyclone equivalent you refer to?

So far my 2 front freewheels hubs [Luna] are holding up but wobbling on both bikes. I suppose I will run them to failure before adding the White hub as I also have a new spare ISIS crank, BB & front free wheel hub set up to wear out. Shipping on this from Cyclone -- OUCH!

 

[gman1971]

gman,

I have heard White Industries makes the very best? single speed BMX freewheels at a price also. Anyway I sprang for the White front freewheel hub and 5 other parts. Shipping was $13.00. Sick Parts does have a galvanized front freewheel hub for $19. -- may the Cyclone equivalent you refer to?

So far my 2 front freewheels hubs [Luna] are holding up but wobbling on both bikes. I suppose I will run them to failure before adding the White hub as I also have a new spare ISIS crank, BB & front free wheel hub set up to wear out. Shipping on this from Cyclone -- OUCH!

Sweet, thank you. I will give those a try for sure. I might first pick a couple of the galvanized ones, as spares. I wish they made a 15T freewheel for the Cyclone motor. Any thoughts?

The one on my trike got alarmingly wobbly, and you can feel its not as tight as it once was when new. Its basically coming unthreaded and the washer is not holding it together.

G.

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman,

I wish they made a 15T freewheel for the Cyclone motor. Any thoughts?

You have studied cyclone 3000 gearing and wear far more me. I did order the 14 teeth HD from them so I am moving from 13T to 14T. I am following/trying some of your advise on this but could not get the 48/44/32 from Cyclone [OOS?] and ended up with the 44/44/32.

My newest c3000 motor freewheel from Luna sometime seizes when pedaling with no power and you end up turning the motor. But get this: When I apply the ebrake while pedaling the motor goes into regen mode? Any way it is very difficult to petal until you release the ebrake or the motor freewheel decouples from the shaft.

I recently got CA3DPS installed and I'll check if I produce any regen wattage under these conditions.

 

[robocam]

You must have forgotten about this post =)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=725#p1171451

Paco told me the brown freewheel is the tougher one. What colors are the ones you have that failed?

No, I did not see those freewheels before, so thanks for the link. I must say tho, that for 100 bucks they better be made out of Adamantium!! I think one can get the other crank freewheel (zinc plated) from Cyclone taiwan for like 16 bucks or something like that. The downside is the shipping... so it might be worth getting one of those White Freewheels... see how the perform.

G.

 

[robocam]

Thanks for the tip about the images. I'll have to try that. My images have been randomly appearing as links and images, and I've been wondering why.

I've actually been pulling a trailer for a few years now, but it wasn't until this year that I decided to hook a bunch of them together. I don't think I'll be tapping into the hydraulic line. It seems like so much can go wrong if I did that. Maybe I'll buy a big box bike and make another trailer with it. That way I can use its brakes, and I can mount my other mid drive to it for assist.

I'm using a 44-44-32. The middle 44 exists only to improve my chainline. I don't and can't use it. The front derailleur isn't even hooked up. I only bought it to prevent chain drops.

So why are you building a second trike? Are you going to keep both of them? I'm having trouble figuring out how to store all my bikes.

to make images appear you simply wrap them with [#img#]my link goes here[/img##] remove all the # signs and no whitespaces. That will show images.

To add good brakes to the trailers you need hydraulic brakes. Buy a compressor quick disconnect fitting for high pressure and run a T to the rear brake. So when you actuate the rear brake on the bike the brakes on the trailer engages as well. I see you're taking my towing idea to the max. Are you using a triple chainrings? or on the double 48-48?

The 2nd trike is going to be identical to the 1st one except the controller will remain at the stock 40A, it will have some improvements from the experiences I've learn from Alpha One.I debated about going with the 7.5 kW motor but I opted not to, not gonna push my luck any further... 6.5 kW is already stupid fast... and there is a difference between stupid fast and stupid dead... The Alpha Two trike might have even more capacity than Alpha One did as I am contemplating the idea of x6 20,000 packs for a total capacity of 3 kWh. Which will give Alpha Two about 90 miles range at 28 mph average, no pedaling, assuming 32 Wh/mile as Alpha One gets ATM.

G.

 

[cjh]

Hi G! I've been working on a little project. I attached 3 trailers to my bike! It's been lots of fun, but I need ideas to improve my setup. I've towed up to 9 passengers in it, and when I'm going downhill, it's impossible to stop at times if the hill is too steep (I go slow of course for their safety). I'm trying to come up with a way to add braking to one of the trailers. Any ideas? I thought about using a method I've seen on some car trailers where if the trailer pushes against the hitch, it activates the trailer's brakes. I've also thought about a remote controlled brake or a cable-operated brake that clamps the rim of the wheels. Another idea I've thought about is to add two hub motor wheels and use them to power the trailers and add regen braking. Here's a picture of my setup. I see you're working on a second trike now. What kind of motor is on the second one? On an unrelated note, how do you make images appear instead of just being a link?

Long time no see you robocam... whats up?

G.

Have a look at the overun braking on the Carla Cargo trailer. http://www.carlacargo.de/en/ You might be able to adapt the concept.

Some pics http://www.gizmag.com/carla-cargo-bike-trailer/43044/pictures#7

There are some big closeup pics on Flickr too if you download in original size. https://www.flickr.com/photos/morethanfunctional/albums/72157641319343595

Here is their construction manual. Use Google translate for the English version. http://werkstatt-lastenrad.de/index.php?title=Bauanleitung_Carla_Cargo_Crowdal.

 

[dirkdiggler]

The cyclone kit is a beast! Been out on a few rides and the thing motors. My 48v battery needs to be upped in voltage to get even more out of the kit. Right now I pull 40 amps for 2kw and would like to be able to get the full three or more. Still need to try out mode 3 - maybe for the next ride.
I think I will finally install the front sprocket and get the pedals working. It is weird riding downhill trying to use the throttle when the bike is slowing down from flat sections or uphill parts. I actually prefer pedaling on those sections. MIght have to give a thumb throttle a go or even a full twist. Probably need to splurge and get the Domino throttle if you want to keep a pedalless version.
Another thing is the cheap chain tensioner - on the long span from the motor to the rear - the chain pops off the tensioner. Need to get one that is either wider or wraps around the chain. Likely not a prob with the sprocket on though.

 

[robocam]

Thanks! That is exactly the kind of braking I wanted to implement. Now I know its name =) I'm going to have to figure out some way to modify the arm of the 1st trailer to implement this setup. Does anyone know the best place to buy metal for projects like this? I need plate and tubes. The local hardware store just charges too much.

Have a look at the overun braking on the Carla Cargo trailer. http://www.carlacargo.de/en/ You might be able to adapt the concept.

Some pics http://www.gizmag.com/carla-cargo-bike-trailer/43044/pictures#7

There are some big closeup pics on Flickr too if you download in original size. https://www.flickr.com/photos/morethanfunctional/albums/72157641319343595

Here is their construction manual. Use Google translate for the English version. http://werkstatt-lastenrad.de/index.php?title=Bauanleitung_Carla_Cargo_Crowdal.

 

[gman1971]

Nice!! I had no idea you were also a bike-tow-truck too You must have a large family then!

Ic, interesting that you have a triple but no front derailleur. I am now running a 48-48-24 on the trike (from a 44-48-24), both 48 and 24 are in use... but I rarely use the 24T except when I am towing something heavy or offroad and I need to climb.

Yes, both trikes stay; I am building the second trike for my wife. So we can all go on super-ultra long range rides (whew, I said that) and not have to worry about the return trip at any time. Once Alpha Two is done I might build a bare bones third one for one of my sons, we'll see.

As for storage, I treat my trikes like cars. When not in use they are parked in the center of the garage, one after the other, between my two cars. I am also getting rid of all my two wheeled bikes except my carbon roadbike and the 1st Cyclone prototype. I don't see myself returning to the two wheel club in the foreseeable future.

G.

Thanks for the tip about the images. I'll have to try that. My images have been randomly appearing as links and images, and I've been wondering why.

I've actually been pulling a trailer for a few years now, but it wasn't until this year that I decided to hook a bunch of them together. I don't think I'll be tapping into the hydraulic line. It seems like so much can go wrong if I did that. Maybe I'll buy a big box bike and make another trailer with it. That way I can use its brakes, and I can mount my other mid drive to it for assist.

I'm using a 44-44-32. The middle 44 exists only to improve my chainline. I don't and can't use it. The front derailleur isn't even hooked up. I only bought it to prevent chain drops.

So why are you building a second trike? Are you going to keep both of them? I'm having trouble figuring out how to store all my bikes.

 

[DingusMcGee]

I don't see myself returning to the two wheel club in the foreseeable future.

I did a long trail ride yesterday and then came home on the I-80 shoulder, as it is the only road from Laramie to Cheyenne in that locale, bikes are permitted on the 4 lane. A trike would not have worked on 2-track or single track part of the rough ride very well. As for riding a trike on the I-80 shoulder, trucks abreast overtaking a 2 wheel biker sometimes cross the white boundary line into the emergency-bike lane. A trike would be a little more scary doing this leg of the ride.

I don't see myself venturing into the three wheel club in the foreseeable future.

But they have an appeal when doing long rides. For now I can tow my trailers with the bike: one with the extra batteries and the other will carry a couple play dolls under the cover for my surrogate family.

Robocam,

get those trailer brakes figured out and thanks for earlier post mentioning freewheel hubs from Sike Bikes.

 

[gman1971]