new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[gman1971]

That's a good idea I think it probably would help. I guess you mean between the down tube and the motor? If not some plastic at that point could help dampen it too.

If your motor is physically resting against the frame, then putting a dampening material between the two should make a difference.
My point was to add a grommet of sorts between the brackets and the motor. Where the 2 bolts attach the bracket to the motor, pull those out and add something behind the bracket and on top of holes on the motor where the bolts go through.
But don't add too much. If your grommet is thick, it could allow more flex of the BB brackets.
Not sure how much noise that will cut out, but every little bit adds up if you are going for quiet. You'll just have to experiment.

What?...what did you say?...speak up, you young whippersnapper!

Oh no, not you too... SOMEONE GRAB THE EAR TRUMPET AND JAR OF VASELINE!!!
Lookin a lil thin up top my friend. :lol:

My eBike has a block of hard rubber between the motor and the downtube, so perhaps that is helping quiet it down even further?

What we need to also realize is that with time the gearbox will becomes a less noisier. My trike now is not as loud and noisy as it was on that video, that was filmed with like 40 or 50 miles on the clock. and its now at 1000 miles, so that made a difference. I am also spinning the crank at 350 rpm, so that does add some noise. For most people running on 48V the sound will be closer to my eBike. At 18S 75.5V fully charged it will spin a lot faster...

I lube my chain with ceramic wet lube, regularly, and to me it sounds more like the chain noise comes from the chain engaging the teeth and rolling over the cog tensioners than the actual chain rotating or moving itself. I am also using a alloy chain tensioner cogs with ceramic bearing for the motor chain tensioner and for the derailleur; that added a bit of metal to metal contact, which has also quieted down over time... the tradeoff is that these tensioner allow cogs don't wobble the slightest bit after a few thousand miles. Anything metal-to-metal is going to transfer noise so you have to reduce that as much as possible.

Also using a different grease inside the planetary gearbox might help reduce the sound but might add friction.

The chain is a solid rod when under tension, that is one of the biggest noise transmission lines from the motor, which is also placed on the rotating assembly of the drivetrain.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Another big noticeable difference is to run motors almost silent.

One of the main benefits of a sine wave controller is actually better efficiency....

Sinewave won't make the motor dead silent, not at high RPM and definitively not under heavy load.

I think most of the noise from the Cyclone comes from the planetary gearbox and not the motor itself.

G.

 

[RageNR]

What we need to also realize is that with time the gearbox will becomes a less noisier. My trike now is not as loud and noisy as it was on that video, that was filmed with like 40 or 50 miles on the clock. and its now at 1000 miles, so that made a difference.
The chain is a solid rod when under tension, that is one of the biggest noise transmission lines from the motor, which is also placed on the rotating assembly of the drivetrain.

The whiny noise should be coming from the gearbox. As time goes by, those plastic gears will wear in and mesh with one another better. So as you have described, it gets better with time. Well.. at least until the screeching clickity clack point of failure. Ebikers worse nightmare I am sure, when you are miles from home and your rig gives up the ghost.
If the sounds are being transmitted though the chain, not much you can do with that. You'd have to rig up something custom or go the way of belt drive.
Both of those options are cost prohibitive enough that I think most people will be willing to just live with the noise.

 

[gman1971]

What we need to also realize is that with time the gearbox will becomes a less noisier. My trike now is not as loud and noisy as it was on that video, that was filmed with like 40 or 50 miles on the clock. and its now at 1000 miles, so that made a difference.
The chain is a solid rod when under tension, that is one of the biggest noise transmission lines from the motor, which is also placed on the rotating assembly of the drivetrain.

The whiny noise should be coming from the gearbox. As time goes by, those plastic gears will wear in and mesh with one another better. So as you have described, it gets better with time. Well.. at least until the screeching clickity clack point of failure. Ebikers worse nightmare I am sure, when you are miles from home and your rig gives up the ghost.
If the sounds are being transmitted though the chain, not much you can do with that. You'd have to rig up something custom or go the way of belt drive.
Both of those options are cost prohibitive enough that I think most people will be willing to just live with the noise.

Agreed, and love the "gives up the ghost" hahahaha... that is why you carry as many spares as you can... also the planetary gears you'll hear them when they are about to fail... the motor will be making some weird crunching noises. You can always put a single steel metal gear on the gearbox, which will make the gearbox bulletproof but at the cost of... more noise!

Belt drive, oh yes, thats what the Outrider trikes have, a mid-direct-drive using a heavy duty belt... and as you described its expensive as heck and no options for gears which is the main reason why I am using a mid drive.

G.

 

[robocam]

Maybe I'm thinking about this incorrectly, but here are my thoughts. A PWM power supply is super efficient. A class-D amplifier is super efficient. Is that unrelated to what we're talking about? Also this post is interesting.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=60983&start=25#p912465

Has anyone actually done any tests to see if there is even a noticeable difference?

I've also ran my refrigerator off of a computer UPS, and it made the motor super noisy. Is this noise similar to the noise we hear from our ebike motors? I know if I ran my refrigerator off a sine wave, it would be significantly quieter.

Can a "sinewave" controller deliver as much power to the motor as a PWM controller? Since I really don't care about noise, I'd rather have more power.

One of the main benefits of a sine wave controller is actually better efficiency. If I remember right with a standard 3 phase controller highest efficiency can't exceed ~90% but with a true sine wave it can 'theoretically' have 100% efficiency. Which obviously isn't going to happen but still

About noise I also think it's more important about the frequency of it than the db. The lower pitched sound I don't mind at all it's the high pitched that is annoyig

 

[RageNR]

I've also ran my refrigerator off of a computer UPS, and it made the motor super noisy. Is this noise similar to the noise we hear from our ebike motors? I know if I ran my refrigerator off a sine wave, it would be significantly quieter.

Can a "sinewave" controller deliver as much power to the motor as a PWM controller? Since I really don't care about noise, I'd rather have more power.

The fridge sounded like that most likely cause those UPS systems do not produce a true sinewave. There is also a good possibility that the compressor was choking on lack of amperage.
Compressors are simple machines. Just 3 legs for power, one of which needs a capacitor and/or a starter relay. For 3 phase compressors, they use 3 active legs of power. Switch those phases around and the compressor will run backwards.

For the ebike motors, that is really going to depend on how it was wound, and how the windings are split up.
Its not a matter of delivering more power through wave form, but rather matching the design/phase of the motor the best as possible. Sinewave controllers could make it better or worse. Testing would be needed on per motor basis since no 2 motors are alike.

The biggest benefit of finding the best matched controller is reduction of wasted power. Thus power gains are observed. The largest gain would be lower temps in both controller and motor.

 

[DingusMcGee]

SPL numbers aren't very useful

You have to know how to employ the meter more than just take readings. The simple idea here is that a useless plot is not a good argument to invalidate using SPL --- very strange example and reasoning why they are useless?

We are are using the meter to locate sources. You can track noises that bother you to their sources.



Sinewave and PWM:

obviously the integral of full duty cycle PWM for power exceeds the integral of a sinewave for power of the same amplitude and time. So PWM can delivery more power but the motor with PWM will be getting a lot of power at poor magnet pulling angles. But when both power sources have the same magnitude per power cycle the motor will delivery more with the sinewave, hence more efficiency.

these tutorials will get you up speed on BLDC motors:

http://www.nxp.com/support/online-academy/motor-control-tutorial:WBT_MOTORCONTROL_TUT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQunSe2_FM

 

[gman1971]

Correct, which is why FOC is so awesome. PWM has more power under the curve and since you can only deliver so much power due to rotor angle and magnets the rest is wasted as HEAT!!


G.

Sinewave and PWM:

obviously the integral of full duty cycle PWM for power exceeds the integral of a sinewave for power of the same amplitude and time. So PWM can delivery more power but the motor with PWM will be getting a lot of power at poor magnet pulling angles. But when both power sources have the same magnitude per power cycle the motor will delivery more with the sinewave, hence more efficiency.

these tutorials will get you up speed on BLDC motors:

http://www.nxp.com/support/online-academy/motor-control-tutorial:WBT_MOTORCONTROL_TUT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQunSe2_FM

 

[gman1971]

Just went over some of my commute videos to compare power and speeds:

On the same exact stretch of road, both at 30 mph. My trike is using ~1050 Watts and the eBike is using ~1670 Watts. Doesn't seem like a lot, right? Well, based on those numbers just to get to 60 under those exact conditions my trike will need 8 kW and the eBike will need 13.5 kW.

That is how important aerodynamics are on anything at high speed; and the trike weights more than twice than the eBike and it has one extra wheel. Well, that is the reason why the trike is 30-36 Wh/mile @30 mph and the eBike is 44-48 Wh/mile @ 30 mph.

If you really want to get to 50 mph and beyond you need to work on the aero; or better yet, just get a recumbent bike (not trike), with that you'll be hitting 60 mph with very little power.

G.

 

[ebike11]

Gman, I would like to get an idea of how loud the motor + planetary is. Can you post some videos of what it sounds like? I would like to hear it without any road or wind noise, so if you can prop up the wheels and do it while the bike is stationary, that would great. Thanks!

This video should give you an idea how loud the motor is ripping through the gears; btw, this was filmed before I modded the controller to run 6.5 kW and this was a 2nd-5th gear pull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1sq_r6oDRM

G.

Nice neighborhood...where do you live?

 

[gman1971]

Gman, I would like to get an idea of how loud the motor + planetary is. Can you post some videos of what it sounds like? I would like to hear it without any road or wind noise, so if you can prop up the wheels and do it while the bike is stationary, that would great. Thanks!

This video should give you an idea how loud the motor is ripping through the gears; btw, this was filmed before I modded the controller to run 6.5 kW and this was a 2nd-5th gear pull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1sq_r6oDRM

G.

Nice neighborhood...where do you live?

Madison, WI.

G.

 

[gman1971]

I am tired of explaining why ppl shouldn't run 20S on those Cyclone controllers, apparently people just don't take my word for what I say, etc... whatever... So here is a picture I took from the capacitors inside the Cyclone 3000W Controller: they are clearly rated @ 80 Volts, not 85, not 90, not 120... just 80, thats what it is.

While they might work for a few days or weeks, it is not guaranteed they will work for very long, or they can even blowup upon initial connection. They can probably work to do a short commercial to sell a thousand of those, but in the end they will fail much quicker than if ran below their rated voltage; which in fact they should've been de-rated to about 160V capacitors if the controller was really mean to be ran at 80V. Usually de-rating at double the voltage is a very good practice for longevity and reliability on those caps.

And for those guys who look in another direction pretending the problem will go away: 20S, or 72V packs are ~85 volts fully charged, which is above the rated 80V on the capacitors. Now, I am not an electronics expert but some of my coworkers are, and when they saw this they started to laugh and told me: "just let them man, let them spend their money stupidly to attempt to gain those extra 360 watts."

My advice? Run 18S MAX, or 66.6 nominal 75.5 V fully charged, on the controller or change the capacitors for 100V to match the FETs (or so they claim these are rated at 100V I haven't checked those and not gonna)

Cheers.

G.

 

[le15otl]

I've always wondered as it's usually rated voltage of the capacitor and FETs that's considered in maxing the controller voltage, surely there's other little regulators etc to worry about as well?

 

[spinningmagnets]

The majority of electronics run off of 5V, but...I am certainly no controller expert.

 

[gman1971]

The majority of electronics run off of 5V, but...I am certainly no controller expert.

The internal electronics don't require 3 kW, but these caps are in the full voltage circuit line, they are usually there to handle ripple and other things like decoupling etc... Again I am not an expert in controllers either, but the people at work who do, all think its a bad idea to run these over their rated voltage; in fact one of my friends is giving me all kinds of funny faces for running mine at 75.5V (18S) b/c its really close to the max rated voltage as well. And my coworker (James if his name must be spoken) stated that to run at 75V reliably it should have at least 50% de-rating, or around 100V caps...

Again, you guys can do whatever you want with your money, its yours to spend... but the power gain from going 18S to 20S is a mere 360 watts at 40 amps, so why risk the thing for a mere extra 360 watts?

And.... if you are going to play the Russian roulette with the controller, then might as well shunt-mod it to pull 80 amps instead, just like I did and be done with it... when it blows, it blew b/c it was truly pulling some serious power, not some puny a$$ extra 360 watts...

G.

 

[le15otl]

I guess maybe it just depends on the rated voltage of the 5v step-down reg then.


I agree it's best not to push it i've had two blow many miles out, wasn't pleasant... (not even overvolting it)

 

[gman1971]

I guess maybe it just depends on the rated voltage of the 5v step-down reg then.


I agree it's best not to push it i've had two blow many miles out, wasn't pleasant... (not even overvolting it)

Yes, this can happen at any moment, indeed; and the paste inside those caps dries faster with increased voltage, so even me running them at 18S I am already pushing it and playing controller Russian roulette...

Given the fact the caps are rated 80V and the FETs are rated 100V (according to Cyclone) The controller was most likely built to handle either 36 or 44.4V nominal, which is half of the rated voltage of the capacitors and the MOSFETs.

G.

 

[le15otl]

Yeah maybe so. there's the 36-60v that came before the 36-72v so i guess there were some upgrades. On my bike 48v is fine for use most of the time 72v is just for fun rides

 

[DingusMcGee]

Most likely the 80v cap rating means the capacitor can handle up to that voltage day & night all the time [when satisfying ambient temp max] -- the working maximum voltage rating. The ultimate rating is likely not double what is written on the shell as the caps characteristics. Most engineered parts have a safety factor above the working rating unless they tell you the rating is ultimate voltage/strength. I once misconnected a 24v charger which had 35v caps to a battery at 66v and heard a minor explosion inside the charger. I replaced the 35v cap with the top blown off and the charger works to this day.

Capacitors are quite cheap. One could get some 80v ones and test them at say 90 v? 100v? Of course such a test means nothing about how much the particular ones in the controller can handle as capacitors of the same rating are not all manufactured the same -- and from China.

My two C-3000 bikes have battery strings of 19s and 20s and are charged to 4.2 v/ per cell. The 20s battery is charged to 84.0 v as measured by a calibrated Fluke meter. You could say I am betting that the controller's 80 v caps can handle a load 5% over the working cap rating? When is the bet over? And obviously the 80v rating is not the ultimate voltage the cap can handle. Nor is 84.

And better yet solder a couple leads on that 80 v cap and see whether with an 84v charged battery the cap ever sees 80 volts -- you know PWM duty cycle et al.

 

[RageNR]

I am actually glad this is being discussed. I have been thinking it over for the last several weeks.

Every capacitor has a voltage rating. And every rating has a buffer. You have to understand, mass produced products have a variance from one part to the next. Hence Quality Control.
After the part is developed, many of them are made and tested. Some will perform better than others, while others perform poorly. At that time, the manufacture will observe the collect data on all pieces tested and find a threshold of minimum acceptable performance. There, the rating is given.
Threshold buffers could be anywhere from 10% - 30%. Yes there are higher and lower ratings, but generally speaking this is where most rating buffers fall.

One 80v rated controller might blow as soon as 84v is applied, yet another might last for a year. The Cyclone controllers are rated 36-72v, so Cyclone is adding a buffer zone on top of the already given buffer on the manufactured components inside the controller. The total buffer could be as much as 40% for all we know.


OK, so all that aside...
Obviously the closer you run to the rating, the shorter the service life.
BUT why o why do I not see anyone suggesting that we simply replace the 80v caps with larger ones? Are there other components in the controller that can not handle 10-20% over the 80v?
What am I missing here? Its not like the caps are expensive. Who cares if they blow, as long as other components are not damaged in the process. Order a few extra caps and keep them on hand.
Only issue I can see with higher rated caps is package dimensions. A bigger cap may not fit in the space where the old one was. Even then, different brands and styles can be had. If one is too tall, find a shorter and wider one instead.
I would think we can find a 100v or 120v cap that would be a suitable replacement for the 80v "weak-links". If I had a controller in my hand to scrutinize and measure, I'd be doing just that.

 

[gman1971]

Most likely the 80v cap rating means the capacitor can handle up to that voltage day & night all the time [when satisfying ambient temp max] -- the working maximum voltage rating. The ultimate rating is likely not double what is written on the shell as the caps characteristics. Most engineered parts have a safety factor above the working rating unless they tell you the rating is ultimate voltage/strength. I once misconnected a 24v charger which had 35v caps to a battery at 66v and heard a minor explosion inside the charger. I replaced the 35v cap with the top blown off and the charger works to this day.

Capacitors are quite cheap. One could get some 80v ones and test them at say 90 v? 100v? Of course such a test means nothing about how much the particular ones in the controller can handle as capacitors of the same rating are not all manufactured the same -- and from China.

My two C-3000 bikes have battery strings of 19s and 20s and are charged to 4.2 v/ per cell. The 20s battery is charged to 84.0 v as measured by a calibrated Fluke meter. You could say I am betting that the controller's 80 v caps can handle a load 5% over the working cap rating? When is the bet over? And obviously the 80v rating is not the ultimate voltage the cap can handle. Nor is 84.

And better yet solder a couple leads on that 80 v cap and see whether with an 84v charged battery the cap ever sees 80 volts -- you know PWM duty cycle et al.

Dingus, dear, good for you. I always hear the same lame arguments from you; you're just looking to pick up a fight, like you did with Lantice13 at the beginning of this thread... and then others; but like they say, ignorance is bliss... so, why don't you just solder the leads and find out, huh? Like the "tangential" caliper? or is that a good enough buzzword?

"Capacitors are dirt cheap", wow, really? I would've never guessed that, phew... I don't know if anyone else here would've ever guessed that either... and that you can even replace them with new caps, too? ha ha ha.

I made my decision and I am explaining here the reasons as to why I stuck with 18S. That is the logic behind my action. You can say whatever you want, I am not going to change my mind. But there maybe others here who are not interested in risking their controllers either so I am posting this information here to help others... like I've been doing since page 3 of this thread. You can't say the same thing, can't you? Just getting people pissed and threats...

I simply won't try my luck with the controller for a puny 360 watts power increase over 18S; and definitively not when I've seen the inside capacitors rated at 80V, see pic. And like le15otl stated, he has blow two of those caps not even over-volting. You might not depend on your eBikes much for transportation, but for me reliability is #1 and that comes ahead of anything else.

Oh, and FYI, 19S is still UNDER 80V, it is 79 volts fully charged. Regardless of this, given the caps are rated 80V we should all technically be running this controller at 12S LiPo to keep the operating voltage at half of the electrolytic caps on the ESC.

Electrolytic caps have a limited life span, and the closer they are run to their rated voltage the faster they go puff; and if you've ever restored an old arcade game you will know...

Done with this matter, whoever wants to run their controller at 20S, like I said, run at your own peril. And 19S is still under 80V, just like I stated a few pages ago.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Thank you for this comment.

One 80v rated controller might blow as soon as 84v is applied, yet another might last for a year. The Cyclone controllers are rated 36-72v, so Cyclone is adding a buffer zone on top of the already given buffer on the manufactured components inside the controller. The total buffer could be as much as 40% for all we know.

Also we don't know if its 36V-72V fully charged or nominal cell voltage... I would think it is max voltage... controllers are not rated at battery nominal voltage.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Felt like Fernando Alonso at the helm of his F-1... woo hoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un6tp5bYp-Y

G.

 

[RageNR]

I am still deciding on parts. If I am going to order all the parts separate directly from cyclone-tw, I want to pick out the best stuff. Not sure if I should stick with the stock controller or go with something like the Sunwin that has an active thread. Prices for that controller are all over the place, and there seem to be many variations of it too.
Modability of the controller is actually a big consideration. That Sunwin design appears to be highly configurable/mod-able.
If we can find a good replacement cap for the Cyclone controllers, that is a huge step forward. I think we need to search out a 120V cap if size restrictions will allow. If not, a 100v might have to do.

Felt like Fernando Alonso at the helm of his F-1... woo hoo

Gbro... you gotta stop. I don't have anything for my bike yet. All this showing off is a little hard to watch...
Glad to see you are having fun. I am sittin here, on my PeeSee, watching the world go by. One watt at a time.
Really, I can not wait. My mouth is salivating. I can taste the electrons...
Stop it.. just stop it.

 

[gman1971]

I am still deciding on parts. If I am going to order all the parts separate directly from cyclone-tw, I want to pick out the best stuff. Not sure if I should stick with the stock controller or go with something like the Sunwin that has an active thread. Prices for that controller are all over the place, and there seem to be many variations of it too.
Modability of the controller is actually a big consideration. That Sunwin design appears to be highly configurable/mod-able.
If we can find a good replacement cap for the Cyclone controllers, that is a huge step forward. I think we need to search out a 120V cap if size restrictions will allow. If not, a 100v might have to do.

Felt like Fernando Alonso at the helm of his F-1... woo hoo

Gbro... you gotta stop. I don't have anything for my bike yet. All this showing off is a little hard to watch...
Glad to see you are having fun. I am sittin here, on my PeeSee, watching the world go by. One watt at a time.
Really, I can not wait. My mouth is salivating. I can taste the electrons...
Stop it.. just stop it.

Rage, you will get there... trust me, I started just like you... I had no idea when this all began for me, I've never taken a BB apart in my life before I dove into this, and kinda got better by making a lot of mistakes... you gotta remember that the trike is the 4th iteration on my journey... but fortunately you will be starting with what I consider a great kit to begin with that has a LOT of potential, instead of a POS GNG that failed every 60 miles...

If you want mod-able controller get something meant for power, doesn't have to be insane... if you are really bent on that then I would try to get a FOC or sinewave as those will be more efficient, something like the Adaptto or the Phaserunner, etc... However, with that said I still think the stock Cyclone controller will work great for your application, and also has a lot of mod-able potential with just a simple shunt mod... (see video again) I have 1050 miles on that trike and so far its been an exhilarating experience, absolute reliability with very little maintenance. This is on 18S... so if you are willing to spend the time you can get power out of anything... as a matter of fact Motomoto (another E-S member) managed his 66 mph record on 12S LiPo, I think he ran like 160 amps? something insane, ~8 kW...

I think Luna is working on a 60 Amp bluetooth controller for the Cyclone, that would be a good step up I think, but I haven't seen those so I don't know.

G.