new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[sather]

Grin advised me to epoxy the probe to the windings.

Justin at Grin sent me this email:
" In general upwards of 120 oC isn't going to cause any damage to most motors as they should be wound with pretty high temp rated enamel magnet wire. However, if the Cyclone motor is an inrunner rather than an outrunner, you may need to be careful about the actual resulting magnet temperatures since you can get demagnetization at pretty low temps depending on the actual grade of magnet that is used."

link on inrunner/outrunner:
http://www.avislab.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/brushless2_1.png

 

[DingusMcGee]

Okay, we have seals, solder, halls, shellac, and perm mags to watch out 4 or is it 5? It seems the best place? to put the thermistor is where the motor generates the most heat meaning here the place where we see the highest temperature rise quickly. Or maybe hardware here is very durable to high temp?

Observation: I have both a Crystalyte Crown TC65 bike and a CroMotor bike. These one speed enduro like bikes take a heat beating on a steep hill but the temperature response curves are somewhat different. The Cromotor, which may be the more powerful at speed, gets hot very quickly[I say, "Already, what the hell?"] but usually cools down ready to go very quickly. The temp on it can spike to cutout with case feeling cool. The Crown on the other hand gets hot slower and cools slower -- you can feel the hot case. It is reputed that the Cro has better heat dissipation but even so in order to spike so quickly I think the thermistor must be mounted near a high heat generation source.

Third observation: I have a MXUS 6T 3000 watt mounted in Dolomite Fat. It gets hot slowly on hilly trails but the cooling off time is longer than the time to get a haircut. I have poured my drinking water over the case to get it up and running sooner.

I have had the case off on all 3 of these for a look when they arrived but never took a picture, unfortunately, I do not remember where the thermistors were mounted. I do like the response of CroMotor best when waiting, but all 3 have reached temp shut down about 100C CA-V3 and still work fine. All 3 of these motor thermistors are mounted inside the case but not likely in the same regions.

 

[DingusMcGee]

" In general upwards of 120 oC isn't going to cause any damage to most motors as they should be wound with pretty high temp rated enamel magnet wire. However, if the Cyclone motor is an inrunner rather than an outrunner, you may need to be careful about the actual resulting magnet temperatures since you can get demagnetization at pretty low temps depending on the actual grade of magnet that is used."

The vagueness of the conditionals "... should be wound with pretty high temp rated enamel ..." and "....depending on the actual grade ..." make the above statement of little practical use. But maybe the wording here "... 120 oC isn't going to cause any damage to most motors ..." sounds good even with the vagueness.

The cyclone is an inrunner of what materials who knows? The situation with a Makita outrunner motor, likely consisting of very good materials, is that the heat sensor is mounted on the magnets [stationary] but my employees have burned the "enamel" of armature to failure in 2 cases before thermal shutdown occurred.

Sather, you reported to me via PM that you had blacked the wires? and had failure with the C-3000. How are the perm mags now?

Mounting a temp sensor on the inrunner [rotor] might be somewhat tasky as you need a commutator ring or a transmitter.

 

[sather]

Yes, I burned up a Cyclone and the motor was replaced by the dealer. That is why I installed the Grin temperature probe (and external probe). I am determined to not lose another Cyclone. I am going to monitor it closely and be conservative. I wouldn't have any idea how to check the magnets.

On the subject of motor temperatures.
I was taken aback by the article on electricbike.com about a high power mod for the Bafang BBSHD with a temperature probe installed in the stator (windings).
Quote: . "After continuous hill climbing I will notice the temperature approach to 300 degrees F (149C) and then I will simply take a 5 minute rest and the motor quickly cools". " The motor would get hot creeping up to 300 degrees Fahrenheit but kept going strong. We took a few breaks to let the motor cool down….and resisted the temptation to really test it to see what it would take".
Whole article:
https://www.electricbike.com/project-x-building-the-baddest-and-fastest-3000w-bbshd-ebike-ever/

 

[Apex]

Looks like I made a rookie mistake.
I simply can't find a safe battery system to power this kit that isn't going to cost me close to $1,000.
This is very discouraging.

 

[sather]

The Cyclone controller limits current to 40 amps. Luna has a number of batteries that are rated above this. Several under $500. The Luna 72 volt battery is $550 including charger. They are out of stock of the 20 ah 25r 52v triangle, but I'm sure they will get more in. (about $700)

 

[Apex]

Have you been to their website lately?
They are out of all the 52v packs that are large enough for this kit. All they have are 10 or 11 ah packs, not large enough.
They do have a 48v pack that is large enough, but with their reccomended charger it's over $800.
I would much prefer a 52v, as my commute will require decent speed capability to avoid getting killed by traffic.
From what I can tell, the controller I have cannot handle 72v, I got the kit from Sick Bike Parts, not luna.
I really would purchase from luna in a heartbeat if they had packs in stock. But life has taught me to never purchase anything online unless the seller has product on the shelf ready to ship, and never wait for product to be restocked, but in this case I may have no choice but to wait. Unfortunately, that means I won't be able to get this build on the road until next year when spring hits.
I'll keep an eye on their stock, they must be doing something right if their stock is flying off the shelf.

I have nobody to blame but myself, I should have done my research and bought a battery when they had them in stock.

 

[robocam]

Why do you need more than 10 Ah for a 10 mile round trip? 10 Ah at 52V should get you way farther than 10 miles, even with a little hill (which would be downhill on the ride back).

Whatever you do, don't settle. I've preordered stuff (camera lens) that took 6 months to arrive. I wouldn't settle for 48V if 52V is what you want.

Why do you think your controller can't handle 72V? Is this not the kit you purchased?

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=231

[strike]If I was riding on the road, I'd probably want a 20s pack. 14s is good for mid 30s on my bike (>45 downhill, scary though).[/strike] Scratch that. The reason it's scary is because if any crucial part on my bike fails, I could die, so maybe stick with 52V and limit your speed to something in the 20s, and/or build your bike using the enduro frame, something much tougher than a typical bicycle frame. But don't use a cheap fork. Fox or Rock Shox are the only ones I would trust. And I digress...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-High-Strength-Steel-10KW-Full-Suspension-Electric-Bike-Ebike-Frame-/112031651549?hash=item1a159b56dd:g:ubgAAOSw5dNWlUvb

Don't be hard on yourself. I was interested in that triangle battery too, and then it disappeared. Their stock changes quite often, so don't despair. Here's another alternative to try (though you did mention you didn't want to use eBay, but it's an option). They can make a battery in whatever shape you want and use whatever cells you specify. Tell them what you want and see what they quote. I'd be interested in what they quote you. I'm thinking about having them build me a custom triangle for my bike. None of the generic triangles fit my frame. They quoted me $425 for a 25r 50 amp BMS 14s4p and $490 using the 30q including shipping (I chose 14s4p because my 14s8p 25r pack from Luna is too heavy for me at 13.3 lbs). Those seem like very reasonable prices for a custom pack.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161470591338?euid=7ec69565681a40b499dc02480450ca82&bu=43188683022&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu

Have you been to their website lately?
They are out of all the 52v packs that are large enough for this kit. All they have are 10 or 11 ah packs, not large enough.
They do have a 48v pack that is large enough, but with their reccomended charger it's over $800.
I would much prefer a 52v, as my commute will require decent speed capability to avoid getting killed by traffic.
From what I can tell, the controller I have cannot handle 72v, I got the kit from Sick Bike Parts, not luna.
I really would purchase from luna in a heartbeat if they had packs in stock. But life has taught me to never purchase anything online unless the seller has product on the shelf ready to ship, and never wait for product to be restocked, but in this case I may have no choice but to wait. Unfortunately, that means I won't be able to get this build on the road until next year when spring hits.
I'll keep an eye on their stock, they must be doing something right if their stock is flying off the shelf.

I have nobody to blame but myself, I should have done my research and bought a battery when they had them in stock.

 

[sather]

EM3ev has 52v 19 ah triangle packs for $545. They are 22p cells capable of 40A.
They also have rectangle packs that fit in most hard tail bike frames , 52v 17 ah 22p cells $495
That is what I have been using on my son's Cyclone 3000. http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35_52&product_id=134

Luna will have the 52 v 20 ah triangle and the 60 volts triangle again soon.
Contact Luna and tell them they are going to lose a sale. See what they can come up with.

 

[Apex]

You bring up some good points, and know the subject better than I.
I had read somewhere that this controller is not long term reliable at 72v, and it's hard on the motor.
As for battery size, maybe I'm wrong, but a 10ah pack will get hot and be close to its max discharge capability with this kit. As you know pushing a pack at its upper limits greatly reduces the useful range and shortens it's life.
What kind of mileage can I expect per Ah with this kit at 52v?
As for speed, this bike served me well the last couple years with a internal combustion powe running about 32/33mph. The roads I travel are mostly two lane with very little apron in a few sections, the speed limit is 40mph on them. Running 15 mph below the speed limit is suicide, I would like to stay above 30, and would prefer 35 to reduce the closing speed of traffic behind me. These sections are just a small part of the commute, but to me, speed is the key to safety on them.
As for the bikes integrity at those speeds, it doesn't seem too bad, the surface is quite smooth. I wouldn't mind upgrading to more substantial wheels, they saw lots of miles dealing with the roughness of a clutched two-stroke. And yes, forks that can accept a good disc brake setup is also on the list.

I really appreciate your response to my concerns.

EDIT] Thanks for the link to the alternative supplier, I'll check that out, seems to be a good option.

 

[robocam]

Ooh, I forgot about them. That's a good source too. I like that their charger can charge to 40-50% unlike Luna's 80%. I had to make my own trickle charger that cuts off at ~53-54V (I set the voltage regulator to a point where I can leave the charger on my pack all night so that it reaches the target voltage the next day), which equates to a ~40% state of charge, perfect for storage. Since I only ride on the weekends, I usually keep my battery at the storage voltage and charge it up to 100% before a ride. I wonder if you can change the 80% to 40% on the Luna charger.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35_37&product_id=120

Here's the voltage regulator I use. I just power it with a 12V transformer from a Medela milk pump haha.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E8D7XYG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here's an article on how to store batteries for anyone interested.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries

EM3ev has 52v 19 ah triangle packs for $545. They are 22p cells capable of 40A.
They also have rectangle packs that fit in most hard tail bike frames , 52v 17 ah 22p cells $495
That is what I have been using on my son's Cyclone 3000. http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35_52&product_id=134

Luna will have the 52 v 20 ah triangle and the 60 volts triangle again soon.
Contact Luna and tell them they are going to lose a sale. See what they can come up with.

 

[robocam]

This rider is getting 4 miles per Ah at 72V, which according to gman is 18 Wh/mile (though at an unknown speed).

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=325

However, Gman's old setup consumed 45 Wh/mile at 30 mph cruise, 26 mph average, so I would calculate based on 45 Wh/mile or more if you go faster. You could use road tires to increase efficiency (not the skinny ones, but wide tires without knobs or a hybrid tire). Schwalbe's Smart Sam Plus could be an option, though a little pricey, but maybe worth it for safety.

https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/off-road_tires/smart_sam_plus

A 52V 10Ah battery would have approximately 52 x 10 = 520 Wh. I say approximately because the voltage changes as you use the capacity, so it's difficult to calculate exactly. But if you want something more accurate, you can get an exact value from the battery's data sheet, but even then, the capacity varies depending on how hard you drain the battery, so the only real way to find out is to use a Cycle Analyst. But that's why I chose the 25r. You can drain it at 10A continuously and lose only a tiny bit of capacity. See page 4 of the datasheet.

https://www.powerstream.com/p/INR18650-25R-datasheet.pdf

Anyway, 520/45 = 11.6 miles. Can you charge your battery at your destination? So maybe you are right in wanting a battery of a higher capacity, especially if you want to cruise at 35 mph.

Based on what I've read here, I think it's acceptable to run 20S (74V nominal) through the Cyclone's stock controller, but just to be safe, maybe you could try 16S (60V).

It's not the Ah that determines how hard you can run the pack. It's the ratings of the individual cells. For example, the Samsung 25r can discharge at 20A continuously. In a 4p configuration (4 in parallel), 20 x 4 = 80A. That's double what the Cyclone needs. What you should do is find out what cell you're interested in, and then find out it's max continuous discharge rate and multiply it by how many are in parallel. Thanks to spinningmagnets, here's a great article on batteries.

https://www.electricbike.com/18650-cells-for-e-bike/

If I were going on the road, I'd get one of these.

https://smile.amazon.com/Planet-Bike-Blinky-Bicycle-Leveling/dp/B000793NY4/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1475356023&sr=8-13&keywords=helmet+flashing+light

Just out of curiosity, why the gas to electric conversion?

And since you're riding on the road, you may also consider having the motor drive a 44T chainring while a 48T chainring drives the cassette (this is something Gman did). This will reduce the chain tension, reducing overall wear on everything (except the hub). This will result in less chainstay flex as well.

You bring up some good points, and know the subject better than I.
I had read somewhere that this controller is not long term reliable at 72v, and it's hard on the motor.
As for battery size, maybe I'm wrong, but a 10ah pack will get hot and be close to its max discharge capability with this kit. As you know pushing a pack at its upper limits greatly reduces the useful range and shortens it's life.
What kind of mileage can I expect per Ah with this kit at 52v?
As for speed, this bike served me well the last couple years with a internal combustion powe running about 32/33mph. The roads I travel are mostly two lane with very little apron in a few sections, the speed limit is 40mph on them. Running 15 mph below the speed limit is suicide, I would like to stay above 30, and would prefer 35 to reduce the closing speed of traffic behind me. These sections are just a small part of the commute, but to me, speed is the key to safety on them.
As for the bikes integrity at those speeds, it doesn't seem too bad, the surface is quite smooth. I wouldn't mind upgrading to more substantial wheels, they saw lots of miles dealing with the roughness of a clutched two-stroke. And yes, forks that can accept a good disc brake setup is also on the list.

I really appreciate your response to my concerns.

EDIT] Thanks for the link to the alternative supplier, I'll check that out, seems to be a good option.

 

[Apex]

Wow, that's much better than I thought, as far as mileage, if your not redlining the cells.
I was aware that ah does not determine discharge capacity, but cell count does, thus I was drawn to a larger pack. That, and since a lager pack would require fewer charges per commute, I would think it's years in service would increase. If a 10ah would last 2 years, I would think a 20ah would last twice as long with half the charge discharge cycles. Couple that with seeing much less stress and heat, a pack closer to 20ah really starts to look attractive to me.

As for the swap to electric, there are a few reasons.

1) Indiana is confused as to the legal status of motorized bikes. They passed a law last year that requires them to be plated, but nobody at the license branch can seem to figure out how to register a vehicle without a title. The police are aware of the confusion, but hassle us anyways, most people on them are homeless or have a suspended license. Not me, I am fully licensed, own multiple cars trucks and motorcycles, but if your on a motorized bike here, you tend to get profiled by the police..
Ebikes, however, fly under the radar here, and there are no laws or regulations for them, as far as the police are concerned.

2) Reliability. If you have ever maintained a China girl two stroke you know how iffy they can be. They require pre-mix, they regularly destroy their cheap ignition systems, are extremely noisy if your making good power, and the weak clutch system requires regular rebuilds.

3) they are messy and smelly. I had to leave the bike outside at work. With an electric I can keep it in my office.

4) I just like the idea of reducing my carbon footprint. I used to not care in my youth, and I still own high powered cars and motorcycles, but I feel more responsible by commuting on a vehicle that is part of the clean future our society should be moving towards.

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

since a lager pack would require fewer charges per commute, I would think it's years in service would increase. If a 10ah would last 2 years, I would think a 20ah would last twice as long with half the charge discharge cycles. Couple that with seeing much less stress and heat, a pack closer to 20ah really starts to look attractive to me.

While that's very true, another 10ah battery is probably going to be much cheaper in two years and probably even smaller than they are today. I think aiming for a 2 year battery life is probably about right. There will be much better technology in that time that you will probably want.

 

[robocam]

Well, when I bought my first 18650 pack, I was trying to decide between the 26f and 25r. The 26f can handle up to 5 amps continuously while the 25r can handle 20 amps continuously. In an 8p configuration, the 26f pack would be rated at 40 amps continuous, while the 25r pack could withstand 160 amps continuously. So even though both have high parallel groups, the specific battery type matters quite a bit. For the Cyclone, the 25r pack would be loafing along, while the 26f pack would be at its limit.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=350#p1152617

I think you're headed in the right direction with the 20Ah pack. I have hopes that my 20Ah pack will last a very, very long time. I'm hoping to still be using this pack several years later (albeit at a lower capacity)! I'm not paying this much for 2 years of service that for sure =) My laptop batteries last almost a decade, and they're charged to 100% almost 100% of the time. I'll have to remember to come back to comment on this post in the future.

Thanks for the info about the gas engines. What do they say to you when they pull you over? I've never had a gas engine on a bike, but I do have lawn equipment with 2-cycle engines, and they're really messy, and some just don't cooperate, so I can imagine that it could be a hassle on a bike. If I still maintained my lawn today, I'd get all battery-powered electric stuff (except for the mower). Breathing exhaust fumes makes me feel like I'd have a higher risk of getting cancer.

Wow, that's much better than I thought, as far as mileage, if your not redlining the cells.
I was aware that ah does not determine discharge capacity, but cell count does, thus I was drawn to a larger pack. That, and since a lager pack would require fewer charges per commute, I would think it's years in service would increase. If a 10ah would last 2 years, I would think a 20ah would last twice as long with half the charge discharge cycles. Couple that with seeing much less stress and heat, a pack closer to 20ah really starts to look attractive to me.

As for the swap to electric, there are a few reasons.

1) Indiana is confused as to the legal status of motorized bikes. They passed a law last year that requires them to be plated, but nobody at the license branch can seem to figure out how to register a vehicle without a title. The police are aware of the confusion, but hassle us anyways, most people on them are homeless or have a suspended license. Not me, I am fully licensed, own multiple cars trucks and motorcycles, but if your on a motorized bike here, you tend to get profiled by the police..
Ebikes, however, fly under the radar here, and there are no laws or regulations for them, as far as the police are concerned.

2) Reliability. If you have ever maintained a China girl two stroke you know how iffy they can be. They require pre-mix, they regularly destroy their cheap ignition systems, are extremely noisy if your making good power, and the weak clutch system requires regular rebuilds.

3) they are messy and smelly. I had to leave the bike outside at work. With an electric I can keep it in my office.

4) I just like the idea of reducing my carbon footprint. I used to not care in my youth, and I still own high powered cars and motorcycles, but I feel more responsible by commuting on a vehicle that is part of the clean future our society should be moving towards.

 

[Apex]

The police are usually pretty cool once I hand over my license and explain my experience with the bureau of motor vehicles. It's only happened a few times, but every time I see a cop I always wonder if my luck is about to run out.
And yes, the two-strokes will happily break down when you least expect it, usually on your way to work when you don't have time to diagnose and fix. Then your only option is to pull the engine chain off (its a totally separate drive system) and arrive at work late, dirty, and sweaty.

 

[robocam]

Ah, I see. Cool.

Is that your bike? If so, I'm concerned for your safety. I feel like you should run at least a front suspension (Rock Shox at minimum) if you're going that fast. If the front goes out, you're going OTB (over the bars). For some reason, I just don't trust the welds in that fork. One day, they could reach the end of their fatigue life and separate without warning. Is that a real Schwinn or a Walmart Schwinn? But then, you're not running as much power as this guy, hehe. I fear for his safety. His bike can reach highway speeds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KemJO_B2FGE

Anyway, Sather, I wonder if this might be an option to attach the temperature sensor.

https://smile.amazon.com/Arctic-Alumina-Thermal-Adhesive-5g/dp/B0009IQ1BU/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_5?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0009IQ1BU&pd_rd_r=NGXGZPCMR3EJEE800WZ7&pd_rd_w=S9Z7s&pd_rd_wg=wOrcx&psc=1&refRID=NGXGZPCMR3EJEE800WZ7

The police are usually pretty cool once I hand over my license and explain my experience with the bureau of motor vehicles. It's only happened a few times, but every time I see a cop I always wonder if my luck is about to run out.
And yes, the two-strokes will happily break down when you least expect it, usually on your way to work when you don't have time to diagnose and fix. Then your only option is to pull the engine chain off (its a totally separate drive system) and arrive at work late, dirty, and sweaty.

 

[Apex]

That frame and fork got retired a couple years ago. The forks were fine, but the frame had some fatigued welds. The Giant Yukon I am using is a much better bike. But I hear your concerns and agree that I need to upgrade a couple things like the forks, or perhaps find a better donor bike.

 

[DingusMcGee]

I often end up doing some riding through sage brush skeletons as opposed to trying to riding over the live ones. Well, the often hit rear derailleur finally got torn off this weekend. I was able to shorten the chain to fit the front 34 and get a good chain line up on about mid rear and very good chain tension. The chain did not come off on the slower ride back to the car. Here is why:

Unless the lower suspension pivot hinges exactly on the bottom bracket shell the chain slack will get looser or tighter while loading the rear spring/shock depending on the local derivative of the particular 4-bar suspension mechanism you have. After installing the chain I checked for what happens on my Specialized FSR while sitting on the seat and adding weight to simulate hitting a bump. The chain got tighter and the rear spring compressed a little more. That chain tightening seemed superficially all good. But really? This 4-bar mechanism produces at this location additional asymmetric loading on the lower stays than just motor drive tension when hitting a bump as there was no longer any swing arm derailleur in the system to give and take chain slack. The safe options to limit extra chain force on the stays were to lock the rear spring or ride over bumps very slowly.

When I got home I looked at broken derailleur hanger pieces under a scope. There appeared 2 modes of failure going. There had been a work loading separation going for some time? as the "V" surface was very smooth but near the top the hanger [about 20% of the material] showed catastrophic failure, a jagged surface torn apart. My conclusion was the hanger can take quite a bit of sage brush skeleton hits as only about 20% of the material was holding the hanger together at the time of failure.

I acquired the first TREK full suspension bike new from the bike shop [circa 1990?] at an unbeatable price. I knew on this 4-bar setup the chain got looser when hitting bumps but I though the derailleur could take up the slack adequately. It couldn't and the chain came off very frequently but I found another fool to buy it at the price I paid. -- I did suggest removing links to run a very tight chain in the lowest gear as upon hitting bumps the chain would only get looser.

 

[sather]

On the new Cyclone 7500 watt kit, I do not understand how the motor sheets adjust to a smaller dimension to fit bottom brackets less than 120 mm. See photo

Paco at Cyclone-TW wrote:
"The 7500W kit can use at 120mm, 110mm, 100mm, 83mm, 73mm and 68mm BB width, need to let us know your BB width. different width with different extend tube
The motor use 48/44/24T and rear wheel use 32T sprocket only at 48V 3000rpm rear wheel rpm= 3000x14/48/32x24x0.8= 525rpm if is 26" wheel speed is 525x60x2.07=65.2km/h (41mph)
at 72V 4500rpm rear wheel rpm= 4500x14/48/32x24x0.8= 787rpm if is 26" wheel speed is 787x60x2.07=97.8km/h (61 mph)
the motor will not get very hot if you use 32~30T rear sprocket and drive with 24T front chain wheel"
Question: What does he mean by extend tube?
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-doublechain.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwU5M5pfubw

 

[robocam]

Did you get curious about the Cyclone 7500 because of that YouTube link I posted? =) Ask Paco to send you a picture. He's sent lots of pictures to me in the past when I ask him questions like that. I wonder if it's some sort of way to extend the bottom bracket width so that the bottom bracket will fit, leaving the sheets where they are.

Now you're making me curious about it, haha. I wonder if it's virtually silent without that buit-in primary reduction the Cyclone 3000 has. I didn't know the wheel speeds would be so similar to the Cyclone 3000. It doesn't make sense. I just always thought that if you lose that 6:1 reduction, you'd have to make it up somewhere else. I get that you have to use the 24 tooth sprocket, but that still doesn't seem like it would bring the RPM down enough, but if what he's saying is true, this motor is a lot more usable than I had imagined. Maybe if I made some calculations, it would all make sense. Do you just only use the largest cog in the rear then? I guess the only way to find out is to buy it. But I have no interest in running 120 amps. That just seems crazy =) to someone that's having plenty of fun with 40.

On the new Cyclone 7500 watt kit, I do not understand how the motor sheets adjust to a smaller dimension to fit bottom brackets less than 120 mm. See photo

Paco at Cyclone-TW wrote:
"The 7500W kit can use at 120mm, 110mm, 100mm, 83mm, 73mm and 68mm BB width, need to let us know your BB width. different width with different extend tube
The motor use 48/44/24T and rear wheel use 32T sprocket only at 48V 3000rpm rear wheel rpm= 3000x14/48/32x24x0.8= 525rpm if is 26" wheel speed is 525x60x2.07=65.2km/h (41mph)
at 72V 4500rpm rear wheel rpm= 4500x14/48/32x24x0.8= 787rpm if is 26" wheel speed is 787x60x2.07=97.8km/h (61 mph)
the motor will not get very hot if you use 32~30T rear sprocket and drive with 24T front chain wheel"
Question: What does he mean by extend tube?
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-doublechain.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwU5M5pfubw

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

View attachment 2On the new Cyclone 7500 watt kit, I do not understand how the motor sheets adjust to a smaller dimension to fit bottom brackets less than 120 mm. See photo

I'm guessing the sheets don't adjust. They stay at a set width and you fill in the gap between the sheet at and the bottom bracket shell. So you start with a bottom bracket with a really long spindle, something like this:


Then you add a big tube to fill in the gap, like the black tube over the spindle between the sheet and bottom bracket shell in this pic:

 

[robocam]

Oh, so that's what you were talking about earlier. Thanks for the photos! That looks like a recipe for a bent spindle unless you can weld the extension tube to the frame, but then you wouldn't be able to remove the bottom bracket. Maybe you can weld a completely new bottom bracket shell to the frame, which would probably not be worth it, or you could weld pieces to both ends and thread them. Another option would be to get a fat bike frame and use regular wheels & tires in it (if you want to use regular wheels & tires).

Oh no. I'm beginning to think of ways to use this motor. Must stop!

I'm guessing the sheets don't adjust. They stay at a set width and you fill in the gap between the sheet at and the bottom bracket shell. So you start with a bottom bracket with a really long spindle, something like this:
View attachment 1

Then you add a big tube to fill in the gap, like the black tube over the spindle between the sheet and bottom bracket shell in this pic:

 

[sather]

Robocam, yes I saw your Batman videos. Can you imagine going that fast on a Dolomite with no brakes?
It didn't seem that quiet, but maybe he had the camera bolted to the bike frame.

The only reason the wheel speeds are similar is that he is running a 24t chainwheel and a 32 tooth cog. It is essentially a one speed bike and relies on huge power to get it moving If you did a 24 chainring 32 rear on a Cyclone 3000, you would probably be going about 10mph max.

Also, in the Batman video, he stated that Paco helped him defeat the BMS on his battery pack so it could put out high amps. In order to get the 7.5kw you are going to have to use a battery that can put out 120 amps which probably means no BMS.

In reference to the bottom bracket tube insert, it would have to be threaded male on one end to screw into the bike's bottom bracket and female on the outer end to secure the bottom bracket. I would think there would be a lot of flex on a 68mm bike with a 52mm tube extension. Probably not much flex on a 100 mm bike where the tube would be only 20mm long. One thing nice about a tube extension is that you could use an ISIS BB and cranks.

 

[robocam]

Does the extension tube thread on? It looks like you can see the bottom bracket lockring against the bike's bottom bracket shell. But then I wonder how the extension tube is held in place. If it does thread on, then it should be ok. Also, this is a 206mm spindle. Are there any ISIS bottom brackets that wide?

I actually have a 24T chainring on my bike, and my largest rear cog is a 42T =) Before I tried it, I thought it would wheelie like crazy, but guess what, I was so wrong. It takes so long for the motor to spin up that by the time it reaches top speed, the bike is already moving at that speed! It is much easier to wheelie with a lower ratio with the Cyclone 3000. So unless you're hauling 400+ lbs (10 kids in 4 trailers - yes I do that for fun) or want to pedal up a steep hill without using the motor, there's no reason to get the 24T chainring. And in case anyone is wondering, my 2nd and main chainring is a 38, and I'm on a 29er.

And you're right, the top speed in the largest rear cog is really low. So using the Cyclone 7500 would be like having the Cyclone 3000 stuck on your 11T cog. Seems really inefficient. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a mid drive. I'd rather run a higher voltage with lower current to get that power, and the Cyclone 3000 seems like the sweet spot of motor sizes.

No brakes? I just assumed it would be quiet, since there would be no gear whine. I'll have to take a listen again.[strike]I wonder how he balances his cell banks.[/strike] I saw in his video he says he uses a relay to bypass the BMS after charging, but what relay can handle 120A? I have a 14S8P 25r pack, so if I got a different BMS, it would probably work.

Robocam, yes I saw your Batman videos. Can you imagine going that fast on a Dolomite with no brakes?
It didn't seem that quiet, but maybe he had the camera bolted to the bike frame.

The only reason the wheel speeds are similar is that he is running a 24t chainwheel and a 32 tooth cog. It is essentially a one speed bike and relies on huge power to get it moving If you did a 24 chainring 32 rear on a Cyclone 3000, you would probably be going about 10mph max.

Also, in the Batman video, he stated that Paco helped him defeat the BMS on his battery pack so it could put out high amps. In order to get the 7.5kw you are going to have to use a battery that can put out 120 amps which probably means no BMS.

In reference to the bottom bracket tube insert, it would have to be threaded male on one end to screw into the bike's bottom bracket and female on the outer end to secure the bottom bracket. I would think there would be a lot of flex on a 68mm bike with a 52mm tube extension. Probably not much flex on a 100 mm bike where the tube would be only 20mm long. One thing nice about a tube extension is that you could use an ISIS BB and cranks.