new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[redline2097]

I am planning to run at 18s 16ah lipos, so 66,6v-75,6v. That would be awesome if you would try it with that speed, maybe even 25mph would be perfect.

What voltage are you interested in running it at?

If you gear it for a 30 mph top speed (48/52V), I don't think it would be a hill climbing beast, but this depends on what you mean by "hill." I think it would be much simpler and more reliable to run a hub motor if you're not going to use gears.

If you want, I can set my bike to a 30 mph gear to see how it performs on the trails.

Would this kit be ideal to 24" dirt jumper for single speed build, topping at 25-30mph? Would it climb hills like a beast?

 

[dirkdiggler]

I ran it for a while as a single speed. Worked just fine. I was doing single track with a lot of hills - don't know how fast, but at least 25 mph and it still climbed like a beast. I've wondered why more people don't use it that way. I do like to pedal on the downhill, its easier to get a quick speed jump on the flats or out of turns, so that is why I put the pedals back on. Made things easy with a single speed because of no chain issues. You could always get rid of the pedals, but keep a rear derailleur. That way you could still shift if needed.
Still a good option if you don't want to make a custom frame and such for a motor like the BHT.

 

[DingusMcGee]

dirkdiggler,


one hill or one small test is not much of a "hill climbing-all around one speed test".

But I eventually wore out the alum 34 on the crank and bike could not climb the next hill on that ride [total skipping] without going to the 44. The speed was fast but the course was moderate. And if the course was difficult and steep?

 

[dirkdiggler]

I rode it for a month that way. It ran fine on the same trails I do now. Depends on whether you want to ride goat trails or not. Like I said, keep your derailleur if you want to switch gears or go with a bmx sprocket on the rear - geared to what you want to ride. I had it on the 34 tooth rear sprocket. In the dirt it went as fast as I needed and climbed well enough. People use the BHT with a single speed and do just fine. Its the same thing here, you just get the 6/1 reduction built in and the freewheel with the Cyclone motor.

 

[robocam]

I just wanted to clarify this so that people won't think that this controller will make the BBSHD louder (or is the cause of any of the Cyclone's noise). Also, the controller in this video is a 60 amp Bluetooth controller that does not come with the Cyclone.

In this post, the OP verified that it does not make the motor sound significantly different. This is also an example of why we can't trust videos to tell us whether a system is quiet or not. If this was the only information I had on the BBSHD, I would not be interested in it because of how loud it seems.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=81385&p=1231414#p1231414

I was amazed how much louder the BBSHD became when used with a Cyclone controller. Could the stock controller be partially to blame for Cyclone noise?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHleVaz0yaw

 

[jk1]

Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby sather » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:23 am

I wish I had access to a sound meter.
An interesting test that you could do with your sound meter is:
1. Run with motor drive chain only (no bike chain to rear wheels),Stock controller,Take measurement
2. Run with no motor drive chain. Take measurement.
3. Take off the planetary gear box, run motor. Take measurement.
4. Hook up sine wave controller and run motor without gear box. Take measurement
sather 100 W
100 W Posts: 119Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:00 am




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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Postby robocam » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:53 am

Even if the chain noise is louder, motor/gear whine is an unnatural sound from a bicycle, and depending on it's frequency and harmonics, it can be very annoying (more so with high RPM motors and/or systems that use unconventional gear boxes). When you're on the trails, people might not pay attention to chain noise, but they'll definitely notice whine. When I watch my GoPro videos, all I hear is whine.

Taking off the planetary gearbox won't tell you much. The gears don't really whine until they're under load.

However, one example we can draw some conclusions from is how loud the Cyclone Mini is with its metal gears.

If you have an iPhone, there are numerous apps that have an SPL meter. I'm sure it's the same for other smart phones as well.

I would love to know if the Cyclone can be made significantly quieter with a sine wave controller.

The bigger the motor the more it will amplify any noise- think megaphone... so yes the sine will make all motors quieter, but what we hear far away it will have more an effect on larger motors like the C3000w vs smaller MINI cyclone etc.
Saying that the C3000w is very quiet and I don't think is much if any noise from the plastic gears, motor whine from the big motor and crap cyclone chain/jockey wheel noise is probably what's left. That's probably why AFT C3000w uses a Kelly sinewave on it and also has a roller bearing jockey wheel to reduce the little noise that is left.

 

[robocam]

The bigger the motor, the slower it can run to produce the torque you need. Slower running = much less noise. Just like cars, you've got the screaming 4-cylinders or 20,000 rpm race cars vs cars with larger displacement engines that can do the same thing at a much lower, quieter RPM. A car with a lot of low end torque doesn't require as much shifting in daily driving. It's similar with the Cyclone 3000. You can be in almost any gear and have adequate power for the job.

Also, the larger the motor, the more mass there is to dampen the vibrations/sound. Unless you like the sound of a whining motor/gearbox, I don't think most would prefer a small motor.

I don't think the jockey wheel bearing makes any difference. It's not turning that fast. But I did get a ball bearing jockey wheel so that it would last longer. $1.72 shipped. Can't beat that =)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152194134702?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=451385781032&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The bigger the motor the more it will amplify any noise- think megaphone... so yes the sine will make all motors quieter, but what we hear far away it will have more an effect on larger motors like the C3000w vs smaller MINI cyclone etc.
Saying that the C3000w is very quiet and I don't think is much if any noise from the plastic gears, motor whine from the big motor and crap cyclone chain/jockey wheel noise is probably what's left. That's probably why AFT C3000w uses a Kelly sinewave on it and also has a roller bearing jockey wheel to reduce the little noise that is left.

 

[Apex]

I got the kit installed.
Test runs on pedal power went well, no derailments.
My battery arrived a few days ago.
I plan on carrying battery in backpack once I figure out a detachable power leash system. For now I just strapped battery pack to the top bar of the bike frame.
Plugged everything together lifted the rear wheel and gave the throttle a twist,...success!
Unplugged battery, went through and checked all mechanical fasteners and electrical connections, all good.
Open the garage door for first powered test run,......

.....aaaand it starts to rain.

 

[robocam]

I just stumbled across a steel narrow wide chainring. The cost is way too high though. I guess I'll stick with aluminum or stamped steel chainrings for now.

http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/stainless-steel/products/104-bcd-stainless-steel-chainrings

Yes, it makes the chain to sound a little louder. Nothing that should bother you.

And yes, you can use the cyclone outer chainring, and with four bolts as you probably have right now, you bolt the narrow wide.

I’m leaving for a meeting right now. But later I’ll look for a photo.

 

[Apex]

It's on the road, running well.

The mounts were definately flexing at times. So I replaced the mounting bolts with fully threaded rods and replaced all the spacers with nuts, then made a left side plate to attach them to the motor, like robocam's. That has mostly taken care of the flex.
And you guys were right, this powerplant requires good brakes, and the speeds that it is capable of make a solid fork setup very skittish. Currently shopping for a 1 inch threadless fork/headset, although there isn't much out there, it looks like a suntour xcm is my best bet.
In the future I might just replace the bike with a more capable donor, but only if I can find one that will allow me to mount motor in the triangle.
So now I will clean up the bike, add lots of lights for visibility, and maybe make some side panels to cover all the parts in the frame.

It's a poverty build, compared to most on here, but I'm hoping with some work it will be a reliable commuter for next spring.

 

[Skaiwerd]

Hello

Just some video riding in the woods. More to come. Have a good video of a ride with my friend on a 4stroke bike and at the beach, low tide. Need time to edit...

https://youtu.be/az2nwFwZKGc

Rob

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo posted a link to the Wolftooth site for a steel [stainless] 32T chainring. Other things aside I from experience concur with this line from that link:

If using a 9 speed drivetrain use a 10 speed chain (shifts and works well on a 9 speed drivetrain and fits the ring tighter for better chain retention).

And a few posts before Robo's I posted:

The quietest chain I have used on the C-3000 is the Shimano asymmetrical chain that has plain plates that face the seat tube and those facing out have the Shimano insignia on them. It is purported to get rid of mud better. This was 10 speed chain on a 9 speed SRAM cluster. Shimano Deore CN-HG54 10-speed chain.

Better results with 10 speed chain on 9 speed cassette: better chain retention and quieter.

 

[DingusMcGee]

For some time the rear wheel drive chain has occasionally been coming off to the inside of the small 32T BB chainring when on rough terrain on the 41" wheelbase hardtail bike. The front derailleur stops had been set to the least inward motion allowed that would still shift from the chain from the 44T ring to 32T ring. After getting tired of pulling the chain out between the 32T and the bikemotor frame I decided to make a Chain Thrust Washer of sorts that would take up the space between a chain "forced to the left side" of the 32T chainring and the right motor frame plate. The thickness of plate used was equal to the distance from the chain pushed inward on the 32T and the motor frame plate [ about 0.20"]. This big alum washer was cut to have a radius equal to the distance from the lower curve of the front derailleur cage to the BB axle center [about 2.75"]. A 1.5" diameter hole was cut out of the center of the washer to snugly fit over/outside of the BB nut that holds the motor frame tight to the BB. This size of washer is bigger than a 32T chainring and of just the right radius to touch the chain stay in the plane of the projected motor frame position to the the stay -- So all of the washer when tightened with 2 bolts is flat and the there is no space for the chain to get between the frame and the thrust washer. The radius of the 2 bolts is less than the inner radius of the annular section of the 32T chainring -- so no rubbing problem.





Over the weekend I tested the Chain Thrust washer and had no other side line problems with it nor did the chain derail to the inside of the inner chainring.

I am still using a 9 speed chain on a 9 speed cassette with this bike. Still waiting for the chain to wear out -- but then a 10 speed chain.

 

[robocam]

Glad to hear you got it up and running!

RST also makes a fork you could use. It doesn't come with a steerer. They have a 1" steerer you can use.

https://smile.amazon.com/RST-Omega-TnL-100mm-Black/dp/B002P8CBHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477277425&sr=8-1&keywords=rst+omega

https://smile.amazon.com/RST-Steerer-265mm-26-4-threadless/dp/B001CK2KAA/ref=pd_bxgy_468_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QK08ERAY678M5MR8DHZS

If you browse eBay for frames, you might find some nice stuff. Not too long ago, there was a Specialized Big Hit frame (8" travel DH) for $200 shipped. Here's a similar frame.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Specialized-Big-Hit-FSR-Mountain-Bike-Frame-MEDIUM-Fox-DHX-Air-500x2-80-/401210777677?hash=item5d6a06a04d:g:lJ0AAOSwpLNYB6Z7

Here's another tempting frame, but it uses 150mm wide rear wheels. 8" travel freeride frame and 180mm fork for $450 =) I've been watching that listing for several weeks, and no one has bought it at that price. Seems like an awesome setup.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turner-Highline-Freeride-Downhill-Frame-W-Marzocchi-66-Fork-/122195301112?hash=item1c736852f8:g:dOQAAOSw9NdXp35M

If you want to go a less expensive route, you might want to consider the XR Pro from Walmart. That bike is probably one of the best values out there. All it really needs is an upgrade to hydraulic calipers. Or if you're willing to pay a little more, you could get a Diamondback Recoil from Amazon.

You could probably mount the motor in the triangle of quite a few bikes if you're willing to make your own brackets. I just bought a metal hole saw for that. I was planning to buy some 1/8" and 3/16" aluminum to make some custom brackets. Why do you want to mount it there? I just realized none of those frames I suggested will allow you to mount the motor in the triangle.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B016U0QDNG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

...Currently shopping for a 1 inch threadless fork/headset, although there isn't much out there, it looks like a suntour xcm is my best bet.
In the future I might just replace the bike with a more capable donor, but only if I can find one that will allow me to mount motor in the triangle.
So now I will clean up the bike, add lots of lights for visibility, and maybe make some side panels to cover all the parts in the frame.

It's a poverty build, compared to most on here, but I'm hoping with some work it will be a reliable commuter for next spring.

 

[robocam]

That's a good idea you have there. I've had that happen to me too, except my chain was caught in there, destroyed and bent both chainrings. I was going to integrate the drop stopper with the new bracket I was going to make for my Cyclone. My plan is to position the inner chainring as close to the bracket as possible (to improve the chainline). That way if the chain tries to fall off, it would just hit the bracket and slide back onto the chainring. I got the idea from seeing how MRP implemented their chain drop stopper with the fin. Oh, and I was going to integrate a bash guard in there as well.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B005WBFK8O/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=32ERNNODGJ561&coliid=IPJ3P0I99LX1B&psc=1

For some time the rear wheel drive chain has occasionally been coming off to the inside of the small 32T BB chainring when on rough terrain on the 41" wheelbase hardtail bike. The front derailleur stops had been set to the least inward motion allowed that would still shift from the chain from the 44T ring to 32T ring. After getting tired of pulling the chain out between the 32T and the bikemotor frame I decided to make a Chain Thrust Washer of sorts that would take up the space between a chain "forced to the left side" of the 32T chainring and the right motor frame plate...

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

concerning the MRP 2x Chainguide, how does the chain make use or shift from one jockey pulley to the other? Is this device spring loaded?

Amazon never has much product description.

But it does look interesting.

 

[dirkdiggler]

I used this on my bbs02 to stop chain drops. Worked great and cost like $8.

It's the n-gear chain jump stop.

 

[DingusMcGee]

dirkdigger,

the price certainly is good. But does it really work in difficult terrain? These chain jumps seem to happen most often when going downhill with a lot bouncy terrain where the coasting rate exceeds the rate the motor is pulling the chain. Hence a slack-iss chain that can bounce off the ring.

Your n-gear stops mounting location is very similar to a front derailleur. I use a single ring on the BB of my fat tire LR SMB to drive the rear wheel. The front derailleur is fixed in both the in and out directions and so one would think no likelihood of the chain going either to the right or left. Not So. Even though the chain is caged by the derailleur I have seen it off to the left between the left most ring and the motor frame. Perhaps the chain was drug by the ring's teeth with the chain cross wise.

If there is no space for the chain to go left of the ring for the full 360 degrees either with an annular ring like I built or the likes of the MRP 2x chain guide which Robo offers, then the chain is somewhat unlikely to get there unless its force bends/opens the space between the chain ring and/or annular section enough to let the chain fall or get pulled between that new opening created. Certainly a steel chain ring and a steel annular section would make this chain pinching between these two parts even less likely as the parts would be made of materials that are stiffer than aluminum. When the outer radius of annular section is bigger than the left most chain ring [with a slot for the derailleur to move ] the chain has to bounce quite far to get on the other side

of the annular section.

I think I'll stick with the stops having the greater annular section over the ones that have a mere a small zone deflector based up what I have seen with the chains caged by the derailleur and where they do end up on occasion.​

 

[Pablo]

Sick Bike Parts supplies a Jump Stop (picture above) our 2 and 4 Stroke Shifter Kits. Should we include one with our Electric kits? We didn't/don't have problems with chain jumps, but our testing sampling is tiny compared to the real world. Also, need to see if the root cause of chain loss can be figured out - lots of people don't properly tension their bike chains, for example. We do sell the Jump Stop separately.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Pablo,

certainly a tight chain helps to keep it on the rings. My derailleur arm is about horizontal when in the small ring and large cassette on one bike. There is not enough chain to get the chain on the largest cassette when on the bigger chain ring. Even so I don't enouncounter bouncy conditions only when I am using the gears that give me the tightest chain. So I go for a little more protection [100% annular coverage] than relying on being in the right gear set to get enough chain tension to stop chain miss locations and other minimal devices -- derailleur cages and the likes.

The folks at the local bike stores tell me that if I shifted my rear derailleur a lot of the time I would wear it out much sooner because of running it with so much chain tension.

But each set up has trade offs and with the annular plate you can use less chain tension and there still remains about zero likelihood that the chain will go between the annular section and the chainring. But it might go to the right under less tension? And then will the cage hold it or does the chain shift to next free right chain ring or go between the 2 rings or go to wherever the particular set up has some clearance for it to go.

Tension, Chain Boundaries & Containment seem to approach the 100% solution best?

The jump stop may be a good first approximation to stop chain derailment for those new to the C-3000 and those giving the machine mild use. Methinks gman1971 could qualify. So yes including it would help to inform newbees of how to stop such an event.

 

[Dimax-Russia]

Hello, guys.
Look at little upgrade from me
https://pp.vk.me/c836126/v836126131/74fd/NhozCf-G4Pw.jpg
https://pp.vk.me/c836126/v836126131/7507/Fq78N0jqpj0.jpg
http://cs630031.vk.me/v630031131/3b630/jchsbU-Dkj8.jpg

The cooler on the rotor, holes in the cover and strong mount.
55A, 75V, speed 75km/h: temperature not higher 65С

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z4FoUOvVI4

 

[juanfeli]

Mad Max Cyclone, I like it!

 

[robocam]

I'm curious to know how it works as well. I think the chain just moves to the other pulley when you shift.

Robo,

concerning the MRP 2x Chainguide, how does the chain make use or shift from one jockey pulley to the other? Is this device spring loaded?

Amazon never has much product description.

But it does look interesting.

 

[robocam]

I would use that if I had a place to mount it on my bike.

I used this on my bbs02 to stop chain drops. Worked great and cost like $8...

 

[robocam]

I think the jump stop would significantly reduce the frequency of chain drops (it does the exact same thing as the fin on the MRP unit). I think the chain comes off because it misses the first tooth and then derails.

The opening of a front derailleur is much wider than the chain, so it would only be good for holding it on one side if you have it adjusted right up to the chain, but even then, it might not be close enough to prevent all drops.

...But does it really work in difficult terrain? These chain jumps seem to happen most often when going downhill with a lot bouncy terrain where the coasting rate exceeds the rate the motor is pulling the chain. Hence a slack-iss chain that can bounce off the ring.

Your n-gear stops mounting location is very similar to a front derailleur. I use a single ring on the BB of my fat tire LR SMB to drive the rear wheel. The front derailleur is fixed in both the in and out directions and so one would think no likelihood of the chain going either to the right or left. Not So. Even though the chain is caged by the derailleur I have seen it off to the left between the left most ring and the motor frame...