New Kelly pseudo FOC controller series

[riba2233]

Well all we can do is push further and wait for the answers.. I'm looking for controller that can do field weakening and I would really prefer kelly over sabvoton..

 

[Kodin]

From what I've read of Lebowski's field weakening work, it looks like you need a motor with high inductance for field weakening to work effectively. IE: the higher the inductance, the further you can push the motor with field weakening. Either way, a lot of the higher-power motors we run these days have a pretty decent amount of head-room for this.

 

[izeman]

From what I've read of Lebowski's field weakening work, it looks like you need a motor with high inductance for field weakening to work effectively. IE: the higher the inductance, the further you can push the motor with field weakening. Either way, a lot of the higher-power motors we run these days have a pretty decent amount of head-room for this.

what would you call a "high inductance". can you give a number? or is as i understood in relation to phase resistance and pole count etc. unfortunately even though some very knowledged guys tried to explain those stuff to me i still get only 10% of it.
my MAC has between 80 and 100uH dependent on winding count.

 

[circuit]

In this case it could be inertia, I'm not sure...

Maybe fany should write here if these controllers can do field weakening. If they do, I would be very interested

Sorry,we don't provide the field weakening control option to increase the motor speed.Because the field weakening is related with different motors.
And it only can increase the speed a little bit.It is not too much.

You are wrong Field weakening can be done and is done with BLDC motors, it's used widely in productions electric vehicles, and in electric cars. Also, it can gain a lot of speed, even up to 4 times the original speed. So maybe you should speak with your engineers and see what do they have to say. Because your competition has that option (sabvoton, adaptto, sevcon, ASI...)

No, you are wrong.
to get proper field weakening, you need a relatively high inductance in your motor (or added externally). Most RC motors have very low inductance, so low, that some are very hard to drive even with 'bldc' controllers.
So what fany is saying, field weakening is 'disabled', because it will not work with most of 'our' motors anyway.

But not all motors are equal, so I would still be like this option available.

 

[Lebowski]

Field weakening may actually help in Izemans case... My guess regarding his problems is that he is saturating the iron, which then leads to a dramatic drop in motor inductance
and a rise in Kv (both of which are very upsetting to the controller). Field weakening may actually reduce the motor saturation...

Again, field weakening is not really field weakening, except for when you only use the motor inductance (then it does reduce the motors internal field)...

Whether it helps him though... it will speed up the motor but the torque will be less. I would reduce phase current to stay below motor saturation, as even with
field weakening he will not get any extra torque. I guess he doesn't need the extra speed from fieldweakening, and as he will not get more torque beyond the motor
saturation point, why waste the extra heat from the fieldweakening current ?

 

[izeman]

correct lewbowski. you just anticipated my next steps. i will try to reduce phase and battery current and see how the motor behaves at lower power.
i also asked paul from em3ev to send me a bare stator with the "new" 0.35mm laminations which should help with saturation and reduces eddy current. and i bought some new genuine hall sensros that i will install. after i read in the adaptto thread what slightly misaligned hall sensors can do at high current, i decided to replace them.
btw: i forgot that i wanted to send you the motor. i will do so soon.

 

[riba2233]

No, you are wrong.
to get proper field weakening, you need a relatively high inductance in your motor (or added externally). Most RC motors have very low inductance, so low, that some are very hard to drive even with 'bldc' controllers.
So what fany is saying, field weakening is 'disabled', because it will not work with most of 'our' motors anyway.

But not all motors are equal, so I would still be like this option available.

Sorry, but how am I wrong? Every motor has some inductance, so field weakening will work more or less. Of course I don't expect 400% gain with our motors, but up to 30% or 50% with some motors would me more than fine. Bottom line, option should be present, competition has it, and will be useful for some people, and it's only a software thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VjRGx9yN3k

Not everyone is using RC motors, nor are these controllers meant to be used exclusively with RC motors. I'm talking about all bldc motors that one might use. So fany was wrong saying that field weakening is impossible with bldc motors, and that's what I wanted to correct.

See the video, even basic hub outrunners with classic rotor can gain a lot with field weakening. For my case I want 30% more rpm on same voltage on golden HPM5000 motor, I think it shouldn't be a problem. If kelly doesn't upgrade, I'll buy sabvoton and that's it, although I like kelly more.

 

[Lebowski]

correct lewbowski. you just anticipated my next steps. i will try to reduce phase and battery current and see how the motor behaves at lower power.
i also asked paul from em3ev to send me a bare stator with the "new" 0.35mm laminations which should help with saturation and reduces eddy current. and i bought some new genuine hall sensros that i will install. after i read in the adaptto thread what slightly misaligned hall sensors can do at high current, i decided to replace them.
btw: i forgot that i wanted to send you the motor. i will do so soon.

I'd be interested to see how far you have to dial down the current on the Kelly before it behaves 'normal'. And then to see how my controller behaves at that
current level ? I believe the Kelly is sensored only ?

 

[izeman]

I believe the Kelly is sensored only ?

i guess so. at least it's sensored for starting. and i guess it uses halls for full rpm as well. but this is something that fany would need to confirm.

 

[madin88]

Maybe the controller does field weakening "by accident" for short time until some loop settles down? IDK lol :lol:

i thought the same. it has no field weakening function (at the moment) so lower rpm would be normal, but the general behaviour of the controller together with the MAC is still strange.
@ izeman
good idea to try the upgraded MAC with its better core. what turn count you going to take?

 

[izeman]

Maybe the controller does field weakening "by accident" for short time until some loop settles down? IDK lol :lol:

i thought the same. it has no field weakening function (at the moment) so lower rpm would be normal, but the general behaviour of the controller together with the MAC is still strange.
@ izeman
good idea to try the upgraded MAC with its better core. what turn count you going to take?

i hope paul has time to arrange that any time soon. but i was thinking to take the 8T or 10T. normally 10T would be ok, but if rpm is really 15% lower, than i would need to take the 8T as i can't raise voltage, as speed will be too low otherwise.

 

[SplinterOz]

Ok so the Colossus 14kw motor using a KSL-D (400amp peak model) in a midget Go Kart.
20S of lipo around 10ah.

[youtube]VkqMabJUvOg[/youtube]

Just to put the speed into context.
[youtube]0bNq3_f7JSE[/youtube]

 

[izeman]

is this a kid's kart? it looks quite small?!
but for sure a damn lotta fun

 

[SplinterOz]

is this a kid's kart? it looks quite small?!
but for sure a damn lotta fun

Yep kids kart with adult seat fitted. Short wheel base makes it spin easier

Damian from Driftech has kits for converting normal karts based on Motenergy motors. He is also producing a dual ME0913 motored hill climb kart. The hill climb and this are for advertising and drawing the crowds. Although based on the reaction he may be making and selling complete versions of this.

 

[strichter76]

hi,
currently i am trying to get this controller working in my scooter.
it spins very slow , and when i push the throttle in full position it becomes slower and slower and comes to a full stop.
the kelly app reports a sharp decline in volts on B+ line, although, when i have look on my voltmeter, it stays at 57 volts.
i think something is wrong.
did anyone figured out how to get a proper config by using the android app?
View attachment 2
View attachment 3
View attachment 1


sorry for ugly surrounding sounds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwCtMLPDcoI&feature=em-upload_owner

 

[izeman]

lol. compared to your issue mine seems non existant. my motor keeps turning at least. your B+ voltage should not change at all. at least not with wheel lifted and no real load leeding to a possible voltage sag.

 

[SplinterOz]

I presume you went through the Auto Identify on the motor, by setting the Motor Identify En to 170 and resetting the power?
did it display any errors on the monitor screen when you did that?

 

[izeman]

after auto_identify is done both leds must go out and in the monitor tab you can see a 'reset error'. this is ok. disconnect power, turn ot on again and all should be set.

 

[strichter76]

hi, i just unplugged the brake signal cable from pin1 (motor-temp). after unplugging, the engine spinned up to 2200 "motor-speed" (much faster than before).
voltage remained at 57v all the time instead of declining sharply as it happened before.

i am not sure how to connect my external 12v brake system to the controller, i expect the kelly waits for 12v on pin1/temp-sensor and then reduces power to the engine and starts regen.
in my case, with my scooter, 12v is delivered normally. during braking, 0v is delivered. no idea how to get this adapted to my scooter.

 

[mistercrash]

Before I email Fany, I thought of asking here. I am finished installing a Kelly KLS7250D controller in my scooter. The motor is still the original 500W hub for now and also the battery is a 16S 30Ah 18650 cell battery. I went over the whole system three times and it all checks out and starts up the way I planned. Now the part I dreaded since the beginning, all I need to do is the programming. It doesn't go well for me to program anything and I am having problems. here are pics of the three screens I am getting.

I did start by trying to do the AUTO IDENTITY function by entering 170 in the field, hitting the WRITE button and restarting the controller. The AUTO IDENTITY stays with 170. There is nothing happening when I twist the throttle. There is suppose to be LEDs flashing on the controller but I don't see anything flashing, I don't even know where they are. I played with other settings and now I'm afraid I messed it up and I don't know what to do. Reading the instructions over and over is not helping at all. I hope someone can help me here.

First screen shot

Second screen shot

Third screen shot

Thanks
Ray

 

[SplinterOz]

mistercrash... ok yes unfortunately the D sized have no LEDs.. very strange I know

Ensure the rear wheel is off the ground before starting auto setup.
If you set to 170 in the auto identify then reset power, connect using the tablet and go to the monitor screen (swipe the screen if tablet). DON'T input throttle or anything at that point.
If it is working the controller will move the motor at least 3 times.

You should then see the "reset error" on the monitor screen.

Power off the controller.
Turn it on and read the settings... auto identify should be 85 again.

 

[izeman]

you're sure poles are 51?

 

[mistercrash]

SplinterOz,
I tried what you described twice, maybe there's something I'm doping wrong. I'll have to try again.

izeman,
Yes, 51 poles, 17 per phase. Typical 500W Chinese scooter motor I was told.

Thanks
Ray

EDIT: I just tried again and the motor does not move three times, all I hear from the motor is ''clicks'' for six times and then stops. I get no ''reset error'' screen. I turned off the controller anyway and restarted but the 170 is still in the ''Motor Identity En'' field.

 

[parabellum]

SplinterOz,
I tried what you described twice, maybe there's something I'm doping wrong. I'll have to try again.

izeman,
Yes, 51 poles, 17 per phase. Typical 500W Chinese scooter motor I was told.

Thanks
Ray

EDIT: I just tried again and the motor does not move three times, all I hear from the motor is ''clicks'' for six times and then stops. I get no ''reset error'' screen. I turned off the controller anyway and restarted but the 170 is still in the ''Motor Identity En'' field.

Those are 51 teeth, poles are number of magnet poles(magnets in any non halbach array)/2 I believe.

 

[Emoto]

izeman now you have tried it with a hub motor, what is your verdict on the torque delivery compared to a infineon 18 fet .