NEWBIE - Project "ZERO"

[2coupedup]

Hey ES boys n girls, i have been reading like crazy for the past 2 weeks all over this forum.
basically i am in need of transport to n from work 15kms each way ish... i work 5 days a week but need alternative transport 3 days a week at least as my wife needs the car these 3 days to transport our 2 kids n a third to arrive soon. so between that and a mortgage my pay evaporates instantly and my budget is zero...

Therefor "Project ZERO" is born...

I have experience building a few petrol bicycles, plus one was my daily transport 24kms a day to work n back however that was travelling along unsealed quiet roads.. so police were no bother. now i have to travel along all main roads and need silent power, i dont mind pedaling to keep fit as i did with my pertol bike...

I learn quickly when hands on tinkering...

i have some donor parts, pics to follow... any help would be greatly appreciated...

thanks in advance.

 

[2coupedup]

Old 20" oval tube frame

700c urban hybrid forks

what i believe to be a Luyuan ebike



i with take close ups or hub motor and controller, i have tried searching them but cant find much about them...

 

[2coupedup]

Does anybody know any specifics about this controller???




or this motor...

 

[dogman dan]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but I can tell you some basics. Commuting that distance 3 days a week is definitely doable, I did it for several years myself. You will need a fairly large battery, 36v 20 ah, or 48v 15 ah will be big enough to do the run at 40 kph. I mean 24k without charging. If it's 24k one way, then you will need to charge to get home. 48v 20 ah will be too big and heavy to carry easy unless you change to a bike that is made for carrying cargo.

The motor is a direct drive brushless motor with hall sensors. So if your controller is no good, then you can run it on sensored or sensorless brushless motor controllers. They are common and can be cheap.

Typically this kind of motor can take 1500w easy, and can be pushed to 3000w for shorter rides.

Your controller has the 63v capacitors, so I would not hesitate to try it with 48v. "48v" charges to about 60v max, and 58v fresh from the charger is fairly typical for many types of lithium batteries. So the 63v caps are rated for a 48v battery, that will give you more speed and better take offs.

I would not hesitate to try that motor with a fairly powerful controller, even as much as a 48v 40 amps one. If you go for that much, you will need a LOT more capable battery than the typical cheap ebike battery.

One thing you need right now, is to know if the motor is damaged. Look in the wiki for some simple tests you can do to see if the fat phase wires are shorted, or if the hall sensors still work right. If when you try the controller it won't work, the starting point is to make sure it's not just bad halls in the motor.

 

[dogman dan]

Duh, re reading, you need 30 k per day now. 30 k is doable on the same size batteries, like 48v 15 ah. So you won't have to charge at work. I recommend 15 ah as a minimum, so your controller does not have to be tiny to not kill the battery. Likely that controller is a 20 amps one, so a 15 ah battery would handle that well.

 

[docnjoj]

Um.......a Zero budget ain't possible since you, at the very least need batteries. Cheepest is 3x12 volts of (Lead-Acid), but assuming the motor and the controller work, your Low Volt Cutoff is 31.5 according to the controller. You then need a place on the bike to carry over 30 lbs. This battery set up will probably be at least $150. you will need this to test the controller and motor on a bike (upside down) or a test stand. Then you will know whether stuff can work.
otherDoc
You will also need a charger. You could get away with a 12 volt one and charge the batts in parallel, but this gets old soon. You want a cheep 36 volt charger ($50) or so. Welcome to E-S.

 

[2coupedup]

Thanks dogman.

Docnjoj, charger I can sort for SLA or li-ion n then I'll just bank the batteries accordingly.

I was planning on using 18650's from laptops. Had a dead one at home 8 months ago that I made a 3s2p out of n have been using it for camping lights and on the few odd occasions running a 12v 90L/min air compressor with great success.

I was hoping to scrape up some more for this job. Found a 9 cell n possibly another 6 cell, not enough I know but ive only been looking for a week.

 

[2coupedup]

Oh and yes dogman 15kms each way but can charge at work

 

[dogman dan]

You will need a large pile of those laptop cells then. Since they discharge best at .5c, you'd want about 30 ah worth at least. That would get you a 15 amps cruise ability.

So, that's about 1 ah per cell. 12 cells makes a nice voltage, about half way between 36 and 48v.

12 x 30 about 360 good cells you will need. It will make a nice project, collecting enough old laptop packs to get there. Many have done it though, it's definitely possible.

If you wanted to use lead, 15 k is definitely on the very far end of typical range for 36v 12 ah. You'd have to run very slow too. But maybe you can kludge up a lead battery that you connect to some lithium, and get er done. 12 ah of lead will take you about as far as 6 ah of lithium. Perhaps you could have your wife drop you just a few k towards work, and ride in a 10k distance. Or start the ride with no motor help, till you get to 10 k from the destination.

Do bear in mind, compared to the cost of your wife taking you to work in the car, a reliable $700 ebike battery pays for itself in about six months, but could last three years.

In other words, you do have a battery budget, compared to driving the car more. Riding my ebike to work put 12 bucks in my pocket every day I did it. It's just a question of how will you finance the purchase. If you don't, you'll buy gas, tires, repairs, etc that much sooner instead.

 

[2coupedup]

Hmm Sounds like alot of batteries. Would it still be lighter than SLA?

Specs on the scooter were 4x 12v 20ah and 50kms travel... does this sound right?

 

[dogman dan]

Depends on the speed. But a lot of lies out there about range with sla's. I remember my first ebike was supposed to go 20 miles at 20 mph on the 3 12v 12 ah sla's. In fact, it had 6 mile range at that speed.

But it might have gone that 20 miles, at 5 mph, if I pedaled to produce 4 mph. See what I mean? Range is whatever they feel like saying, if you do it slow enough.

Cut whatever they say in half is a good approach. But, if you go lead, how do you carry 4 20 ah bricks of lead on a bike? It will weigh about 20 pounds per brick.

A large laptop cell pack will be very bulky and hard to carry too, but at least lighter than 80 pounds.

My rule of thumb for lithium pack size for commuting purposes is 1 ah per mile for a 36v pack, and 20 mph travel. 35kph close enough. But a recycled laptop pack needs to be even bigger to keep the discharge rate low enough. .5c discharge rate is the recommended target. 10 ah of pack = 5 amps.

Again, calculate the real actual cost per mile of having to use the car, or get another, or even take a bus, and you will find you do have the budget for a moderate priced battery. 10 ah of a battery that can stand a higher c rate will do er if you can charge at work. One way to keep the battery cost down is to use a weak controller for a less powerful, slower ride. Then 10 ah of cheaper cells might be enough.

But for sure, zero budget just can't work. You will have costs, tires and tubes just for starters. My commuter cost about $1200, including a bike that only cost $50. But it cost 15 cents per mile, while the car cost me 60 cents per mile. It quickly paid for itself, and then started funding ebikes that were just for fun. Parking the car that much, I put off having to buy another a full 4 years. If you look at it that way, I put off a $450 a month expense for 4 years. Not exactly saved money, but I delayed having to pay long enough to add up to $20,000. That savings went straight to other debts I needed to pay.

Pay $1200 or pay $20,000. There's an easy decision to get out the charge card.

 

[2coupedup]

I didnt realise that the laptop batteries were that weak. Thanks dogman I wont bother chasing more of those...I am impressed that you lasted this long befor saying "not possible" haha

I would love to just be able to buy a batt... but ive gotta find a way to make or save money to be able to buy the battery to then save more money lol...

So then I ask whats the best way to get the battery I need? Buying one outright is outrageously expensive for me as far as I can tell...

I have good enough soldering skills. Some electrical gear - plugs crimps wire heatshrink etc. And have repaired small electric circuits befor

I work with stainless hardware and engineering plastics at work. And love tinkering n making stuff...

What is a cost effective way to get what I need?

 

[dogman dan]

Well, that just opened up the argument that has kept ES going for years.

Actually, the laptop cells IS about the cheapest way there is. It's a matter though, of having the source for them super cheap, or better, free. Buying them on ebay is not as good, if the price is not so cheap. Even better, is having the source for good cells that remain in recycled power tool packs. Dr Bass has the buddy at the recycle place, and sells good cells all the time. He's got that good a source the lucky dog.

Also a possibility, is a used battery. Most of these jerks that sell stuff in the ES for sale section seem to think a used battery is worth 90% of what they paid a year ago. But once you have some cash, you might find a deal there. Definitely watching for Dr Bass to have stock again is worth while. But, you can buy a pile of dogshit on the used battery market. I got mildly burned one time myself.

In new stuff, an Ebay seller called Sunthing generally has a pretty good price on a decent lifepo4 pack. Vpower HK has good prices too, but a bad rep.

I just about NEVER do this, recommend it to a noob, but one of the cheapest batteries out there come from the RC hobby world. Bear in mind, these batteries can burn your house down. A fire charging at work, and you'd be soooo fired. But a 12 cell 10 ah lithium cobalt pack would do the job. In the US, this could cost as little as $250. Plus, another $100 minimum for a safe charger. A $400 battery budget really is about the minimum.

How old are you? In my 20's pedaling 15 k was barely a warm up. Nothing gets cheaper than pedaling a decent bike. But a real bummer to do it on a piece of shit. Save enough pedaling it to pay for a battery later?

 

[2coupedup]

Still young enough 27 but not healthy enough. Bad knees cant take much more the 5 or 10 kms max is what I use to do on a $100 new bike no motor but pretty much flat but unsealed road.

Now its 15kms or more and some bad inclines every 2kms or so...

Turns out I need a throttle n brake levers. They are corroded n perished. Hows this http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=260838259947

Then if I need a controller something like this http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=360642492026

 

[2coupedup]

As for batteries. I've heard lipo is dangerous but power to weight is best... I use to play with rc cars but that was crappy nicad n they could heat up when quick charged... We use to use fire blankets- lay it down the put batteries ontop and then fold it over...

I found these on ebay http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=291056462366
Seems to be cheapest
or if I go 18650 need to buy a few spare I can get http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181297748765

 

[dogman dan]

Ahh youth, it is so fleeting. There is a lot of us that got into ebikes the same way, no money, and no legs left either.

Most of us get RC batteries from Hobby King, Order from the local warehouse if at all possible. I guess you are in Australia, where everything costs more than in the US.

4s hard case packs in the 20c rate typically are the cheapest. 6 of them would make a 44v 10 ah pack suitable for your needs. 12cells in series works good with 4s packs.

Read up on lipo/lico, before ordering anything.

The other stuff looks like it would work. You don't have to have the E-brakes handles. You can just use the motor without ebrakes. Pretty simple to let off the throttle when you use the brakes so you can snag some brake handles from any old bike. But you will need a throttle that works.

 

[2coupedup]

Is it not worth setting up regen braking?

Yes everything costs more I've noticed on hobby king website when I switched to Au from international

 

[Samd]

I still have a couple of bottle batteries going cheap if useful. And plenty of chargers if you can and want to charge at the destination. PM me if I can help.

Cheers.

 

[2coupedup]

Thanks SAMD,i will keep that in mind... problem being (apart from money) i love to tinker so if there is a chance i could make it myself i will... lol

i found these at hobbyking thanks dogman... 4s 5000mah 20c
does seem to be the cheapest option.

what charger setup would be sufficient? can they be charged as one unit at 44v 10ah or do they need to be separated???

 

[dogman dan]

There must be thousands of pages on charging lico. Start reading the threads in the Battery sections FAQ's. Since your budget is so tight, you will likely end up using something from the low end of the RC charger selections.

I can say this, 50w chargers are too slow to do you a lot of good. If possible, hold out for something that can charge a 150-200w.

You will bundle all your 4s packs into one big parallel connected 4s pack, and then you can charge with a 6s charger or 8s charger. You don't need one of those crappy 4 at a time quad chargers. One of the key things to using lico safe, is to charge fast enough to be able to keep an eye on it charging. Don't set your house on fire with kids. Charge only in a place where you would build a campfire.

Bear in mind though, a good charger is an investment that should last though many packs of batteries.

 

[Binbag]

What is a cost effective way to get what I need?

Like you, I'm a noob at this. I'm in the process of converting my hybrid into a 'leccy.

Like many on this forum, I want to keep it cheap too, but came to the opinion that you just have to pay something out .

Ive sourced a Generic Chinese complete kit and just need to sort the battery out now.

Been doing my reading (This forum is superb for info) and from what I read, I think the consensus, especially if you are on a budget, is to go the recyled laptop batteries route.

To give you some idea on pricing, I just bought 15 HP, 9 cell batteries from fleabay (UK) for £30 delivered. They contain Samsung 18650 batteries @ 2800mA and I believe the Samsungs are a quality item. It also has the advantage of them all being a matched item.

These are pretty easy to open up, taking maybe 5 minutes each, then another 10 minutes cleaning them up and getting the various tabs and strips off.
This will give me a total of 135 batteries, which should more than suit my demand, even allowing for duffers.

Next step is figuring out the best battery configuration, how to assemble them, how to charge them....so its back to forum reading for me

 

[2coupedup]

Throttle showed up. Connected it up with controller batteries and motor and... nothing

Anybody able to identify wires and point me towards some tests...?

 

[2coupedup]

...

 

[d8veh]

The third power wire powers the controller. its voltage is cut down to 12v to power the FETs, and then to 5v to power the CPU and the sensors. It therefore has to be connected to the battery positive. Once you've done that, you need to check the remaining three thin reds wires for voltage. One may be battery voltage which will kill a throttle, PAS or CPU if you connect it wrongly. Two of them look dangerously close to the controller power one. I'd need to see a full size picture of the controller to confirm. All the 5vs normally come from the same point. The other two (halls and whatever are at the other end of the PCB, so they are almost certainly 5v.

Greens are normally signal wires, one of which will be the throttle.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

I wouldn't be so quick to write off the 18650 cells. My bike has been running salvaged 18650 laptop cells @ 12s5p and now 12s6p for several thousand miles. I average right around 18 mph with moderately vigorous pedaling for a sixtysomething. With 12s6p a 10 mile ride at 18 mph takes about 3.5 ah out of the 10 ah or so practical capacity I have between 4.05v and 3.5v resting voltages on my pack and the pack gets warm to the touch but not hot.

Several times I've had to replace cells going bad in my pack but since I soldered it together it's not that difficult to do. When I see one parallel group starting to get a noticeably lower resting voltage after a ride than the rest I know there's a cell going bad in that group.

For charging I have an iMax B8 balancing charger I bought used off Ebay and a 30a 12v power supply I got through local bartering, for testing purposes I have a Celllog 8s and I keep track of current consumption on the bike with a cheap inline amp/volt/amp hour meter which is good for 60v I think . I balance charge about every fifth charge or so.

Obtaining more laptop packs to strip is an ongoing process, you can continuously rebuild and add to your pack as you go, it does not have to be done all at once. Yes you will be stressing the cells at first and will shorten their lifetime but as you add more cells and swap out dying cells your pack will get more capable and longer lasting.

It's time consuming and somewhat tedious to do this but it can be done for not much money compared to buying a commercially made pack.

Here's my pack in all its many colored glory, this the earlier 12s5p iteration. I stripped the insulation off wire salvaged from blow dryers I bought at the flea market (fairly heavy gauge and fine stranded) and then twisted it together to make my connecting links. Since I don't ride off road I wasn't as concerned about vibration as those who really bash a bike, this is on a semi recumbent bikeE.