Newbie Retrofit build

[ElectricSushiChef]

Hello everyone! Thank you for you time! I just joined the forum!


Right, so I have some electrical experience. I just started thinking about retro fitting my Frankenstein Giant Iguana SE from 2000 :lol: that's 16 years old into an E-bike.

I'm about to move to Washington DC and I am fat boy who smoked for 20 years. I've quit Smoking and am wanting to get healthy and exercise. I also have some health issues that make it hard for me to exercise/exert myself. So yea I want to Bike and exercise but also have the option of pushing a button and be able to go up a hill. I weigh 220.


20mph - Desired max speed on level ground. mph or kph
15-20 miles at 20mph - Desired max range at what cruising speed. mph or kph
26 inch - Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert. Most common kits are for 26" wheels.
Not sure - Brake type of motor wheel. Disc or not.
220 - Rider weight.
Washington DC some steep hills - Terrain. Exp: mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade, I want to climb mountains, etc., etc.
600-1100 - Budget. -

The 1st Technical issue in my head is:

1. Washington DC law states you cannot have a motor "capable" of going over 20mph on a flat surface or it will be considered a motorcycle/scooter. I want to use bike lanes etc. How does one wire/set-up an e-bike that has enough volts/amps to get u up a hill effortlessly but will not exceed 20mph on a flat surface. Im guessing some sort of controller. Ive read about a so called "hidden 2nd throttle" to fool police if they stop and test your bike for 20mph compliance. i'd like to go 20mph +.

I should be abled to DIY except for the battery. Was looking at the 1000w 48v lithium ion front or rear hub motors. Scared of theft in DC...

 

[wesnewell]

I've got 20K miles on a kit just like this. I weigh 270 lbs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/231520160623
10ah of 12s rc lipo can be had for ~$100. Will give you atop speed of ~28 mph and about 20 miles at 20 mph on level ground.
I replaced the controller on mine and run it on 24S lipo. Don't ride like a hot rodder and the cops shouldn't bother you. And you'll need torque arms/plates for that aluminum frame bike.

 

[motomech]

Washington DC some steep hills - Terrain. Exp: mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade, I want to climb mountains, etc., etc.

Climbing mountains takes lot's of battery and lot's of battery means lot's of money.
Yeah, there are some really steep hills in DC, but that doesn't mean you have to go up them. They will be on residential streets that you can route around.
I say that because, if you are really serious about working off some fat,you need two things;
1)PAS Pedal assist system. Make this your throttle and adjust your speed with a controller display.
2) a system powerful enough to go up reasonable hills, but not too much power. If you build an Emotorcycle, you will end up pedaling very little. Something like this;

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/576-q100-36v350w-front-e-bike-whole-kit-ebike-kit.html

Use the frt. mount complete kit w/ batt. to keeps installation simple. Use 260 motor speed for 20 to 21 mph top speed.
Use LCD-3 or LCD-5 display with torque imitation and 5-range adjustment for best pedal/power intergration(feel). This works great on low-power systems. If a larger, more powerful system is used, a much more expensive true torque sensing system is better.Read up on these "torque imitation" sine wave controllers.

Washington DC law states you cannot have a motor "capable" of going over 20mph on a flat surface or it will be considered a motorcycle/scooter. I want to use bike lanes etc. How does one wire/set-up an e-bike that has enough volts/amps to get u up a hill effortlessly but will not exceed 20mph on a flat surface. Im guessing some sort of controller. Ive read about a so called "hidden 2nd throttle" to fool police if they stop and test your bike for 20mph compliance. i'd like to go 20mph +.

You worry too much. Th DC cops have bigger "fish to fry". Just ride respectfully and don't do anything you wouldn't do on a pedal only bike.

now everyone will come on and talk you into a bigger, more powerful system like wesenwell always does.

 

[docw009]

Here's my beater ebike that cost me about $570 for the drive train. The motor was a 500W geared rear hub for $210 off ebay. I chose a geared hub because they have the least resistance when pedaling. The 36 volt Dolphin battery was $360 shipped from China. The steel frame Trek has been hanging from my garage rafters for 20 years. I almost tossed it out 8 years ago. I did spend $160 to make the bike safe - new tires, new tubes, new front rim, replaced v-brakes with cantilever brakes. lights.

I could have bought something like an Xtreme Trail maker e-bike with disk brakes for the money I spent, but they are 24 volt machines. Maybe it would be better. Still, I enjoyed putting this together. Top speed is 18-20 mph in PAS level 3, but I usually poke along at 12 mph unpowered, or 14 mph in PAS level 1. Range is probably less than 15 miles under throttle. Since I like pedaling. the true range is as far as I can pedal. I've done 25 miles with assist. Two hours on a bike is enough time.

I was 209 pounds a year ago. The workout from riding this e-bike and a regular one have helped me get down to 192. I'm hoping 180's will be possible this year.

I've got some other e-bike projects under hiatus. Need to get back to those when my garage warms up.

 

[dogman dan]

You want the full 48v, 1000w power, are heavy, and don't want to exceed 20 mph max speed. Somebody sells a kit just like that. But it's not a cheapo from amazon or ebay. It's over your budget by at least $500.

I do agree with others though, that you really don't need to worry about 20 mph max speed. Just ride a reasonable speed and you'll be fine. So any decent 48v kit will reasonably fill your needs. Most likely, you won't really be happy with the slower version, and you aren't so heavy you really must use the low rpm dd motor kit. You'd most likely be happiest with a 1000w geared motor kit. They make more torque than the medium size dd motors. I think though, that you are too heavy to push a 350w geared motor kit hard up a mountain.

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

Ok! thank you all for your inputs i've weighed them all for my individual needs. Im confident i will pedal when i am feeling well enough to do so! So PAS is cool but I want full power mode when I don't feel well (CardioVascular issues)

Thing is I am sorta a hot rodder in life...but this bike will be slow and simple and cheap but with some torque. Later when i've got more money and have some experience id like to make something more unique.

So i've decided presumptively these specs but still looking at brands. Also these specs I still want the ability for the motor to slow down or stop at 20mph. I'm thinking a S12SN 1000W 40A Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller.

1000w 48v Rear Motor full kit with no battery - not sure on brand, Any other suggestions?
48V10Ah Case-02 18650 Battery Pack Without Controller - Bmsbattery.com Rack battery
S12SN 1000W 40A Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller can replace controller in a kit?
Anti-theft GPS Tracking Sonic Alarm with Vietnam Era Ejection Seat Self Destruct Toggle Dongle

I understand that I am probably overkilling it some but id rather have extra power.

Do i need Torque Arms still since its Rear motor not front?

I hear you guys about DC Police having "BIgger Fish to Fry". I still want a motor to idle once at 20mph but enough torque for hills but at same time not a "rough ride" please. I look like a criminal so ill be stopped sooner or later. Perhaps its all in my head I know but for peace of mind.

How do i know a rear hub motor is going to fit my Giant Iguana SE year 2000? I'm about to go take measurements.

Does anyone know what brand batterys BMSbattery.com uses in their non-Panasonic packs? Id prefer not having off-branded chinese batteries.....but i'll take china's motors! =)

I'm thinking the Torque Controller integrated with a pre-packaged Rear Motor Kit could be a compatibility issue?

Thanks again for advice!

 

[wesnewell]

The case -02 battery has a 20A max continuous current limit. It won't work well with a 40A controller, or any controller over 20A imo. Most 48V 1000W kits will come with a 26-30A controller. Yes, you will still need torque arms or plates. Plates are a lot better. Assuming your bike has 135mm dropouts, there shouldn't be a problem, although I prefer bikes with steel dropouts that don't require torque arms. You don't need pas to pedal along with the motor. If you have pas only, you have to pedal, which may not be possible at times until you stop and rest. IMO, it's more trouble than it's worth and not required in the US. the kit I linked is the best buy money wise imo, but you can take your pick of many. But I wouldn't use that battery pack on anything. You also need to consider shipping cost from bmsbattery. It isn't cheap.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=48v1000w%20rear&LH_PrefLoc=1&rt=nc&LH_FS=1

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

Apparently im prolly to heavy in the back too...

Aye yea a better battery ok. I kinda liked a Rack mounted battery behind me because ive seen the carnage a 18650 battery can cause if malfunction occurs. I'd rather not have 50 of them sitting next to my crouch...

 

[dogman dan]

Unless you do choose a kit with a very slow winding, your 1000w bike will be capable of 27-30 mph depending on the exact winding. But again, I can tell already you'd hate the slow motor the company I work for sells.

36v kits, because of the lower voltage, tend to top out at 20-22 mph, and are generally considered street legal

it's possible with some kits, to run 36v now, 48v later, so you might look for that when you choose.

 

[wesnewell]

I've been using rc lipo for over 5 years and 20K miles and have never had a single failure anytime. The only time I remember reading about a fire was when someone connected 2 batteries in parallel where one had a lot higher voltage than the other, which started overcharging the smaller one as soon as he paralleled them. Even then he got off it before it actually burst into flames. Rc lipo will swell, burst and vent, being in pouch form, giving you a little warning that there;s a problem. 18650's don't give much warning since they are sealed in metal container. Even at that, unless you screw up badly They are pretty safe. The major problem I see with a lot of 18650 packs is that use low C rate cells. Personally I'll never use them.

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

Right so looking at all these Ebay/yescomusa.com/bmsbattery.com kits has got me wondering what amp and specced controller actually comes with them. Im sure somebody knows. Im thinking i wont go torque controller. Still kinda lost on how to limit my speed so its not a motor "capable" of going over 20mph on flat ground. A LCD Controller? this cant be that hard...

Was deciding on...
1000w 40v rear hub kit with 25-30 amp Controller and wired for that amperage
Battery either Lipo or li - 48v 10ah 25-30 amp
2 rear torque bars
Heavy duty kickstand

Kit im currently looking at:
http://www.yescomusa.com/products/26in-rear-electric-bicycle-motor-conversion-kit-48v-1000w

I like that i can return it if an issue arises in first 30 days.

I still think I could break something due to too much weight in the back. Need to reinforce maybe?

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

Now why is it I cant use a 40 amp controller with a 20 amp battery? It will prolly be 25-30 amps tho that i use. Isn't it just thicker wires? to much internal resistance of controller?

 

[Grizzl-E]

The controller will try to pull that out of the battery and the batteries bms will trip on overcurrent or you'll pop the fuse depending on the battery.

 

[Marin]

If you haven't looked at,

Ebikes.ca

Or

Lunacycle.com

Lots of info there.

 

[wesnewell]

This is the yescomusa kit you were looking at, listed by the yescomusa ebay seller, but at a lower price. IOW's, this is yescomusa. Unless they've changed, it comes with a 26A controller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-LCD-Display-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Conversion-/371289491857
Change phase connectors to 4mm bullets, and upgrade the battery wiring and fuse at some point. Most controllers have limiting features you can implement if want to, but I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

So im rethinking everything due to the expense of a decent lithium ion.

I've got 20K miles on a kit just like this. I weigh 270 lbs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/231520160623
10ah of 12s rc lipo can be had for ~$100. Will give you atop speed of ~28 mph and about 20 miles at 20 mph on level ground.
I replaced the controller on mine and run it on 24S lipo. Don't ride like a hot rodder and the cops shouldn't bother you. And you'll need torque arms/plates for that aluminum frame bike.

I think going LiPo for this build would be slightly more economical? Looking at 12-24s 10-20ah with a variable voltage controller. I don't have any experience with lipo though.

 

[wesnewell]

With 10ah of 12s lipo you'll get ~20 miles @ 20 mph. I don't follow pricing much, but you can find it for ~20 cents per wh on sale, or $85 for a 10ah 12s pack. For <$100 you can get a bms and charger. Rc lipo was the best deal going 5 years ago and still is imo. It's all I use. BTW, the controller that comes with that kit will only support up to 14s.

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

Been looking on Hobbyking.com for lipos. Now i'm confused as I think im putting to much emphasis on having a 48v 1000w motor when really this is just a guide line for how to run motor. So i see 6s Lipos that give 22v run in parallel for 44v. What other options are there as i'd rather a bit more power than less. Which packs in what combination would give me like 50v or 60v 10ah. I think i could even go 8ah. I think also that 44v is enough but if it is not, can i throw another 6s into parallel for 66v on same bms/charger prolly? =D

Sister gave me her Giant Rincon 21" 2006. I think its steel (a neodymium magnet sticks to it) and its in a lot better shape.

 

[wesnewell]

Yep. The motor doesn't care about the voltage. Only the controller does. You could run the motor on 24V-100V or higher as long as the controller supported it. I run mine on 24s (100.8V charged) on a 15 fet controller rated for 72V 40A 1500W. But the controller display that comes with the kit is limited to 60V max. And it won't turn on the controller over 60V. So that limits you to 14S (58.8V charged). But unless you want the extra speed, it's much easier running 12s with 2 6s or 3 4s packs in series. And the easiest way to charge them would be with a 12s bms and charger. Although there are lots of ways to safely charge them without a bms. But 12s is the perfect voltage for the LVC (42V) the kit controller will come with.

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

having a hard time finding a 14s battery for sale

 

[ElectricSushiChef]

So what i think what i really want is a 44v 12s2p with a BMS/charger that will work with both 44v and 66v if needed. yea!

 

[dogman dan]

66v will blow the controller of the 48v kit.

Most pre built e bike "48v" batteries have standardized at 13s, when using cells that charge to 4.2v per cell. 54.6v fully charged, so it's 48v, but not as high as most 48v controllers max voltage.

13s 20 ah, of even mediocre cells would meet the requirements to run one of those 48v 1000w kits. But with the 30 amps controller, you'd need very good quality cells in the pack to run with a small 10 ah pack.

Lipo is attractive, it's like a real bitch girlfriend that you can't stop going back to because she's so great in bed. While you are riding, it's great. But the daily maintenance makes you wonder if it's worth it.

I've been running lipo longer than Wes has, and swore I would never buy any more. Then this spring, I just couldn't resist the low price, and bought 14s 20 ah again. :lol: But heres the deal, Wes is retired, I'm semi retired. We have time to deal with it, and it's not that big a deal for us to stroke the girlfriend, and put her to bed in a safe place.

But as a way to conveniently use an ebike to commute daily, I would NEVER recommend lipo. Because one screw up, and it CAN burn your house down. For a guy still working a job, you really need a safer chemistry battery. You need a safer, bms equipped battery you can plug in and go to bed. Don't set it on a pile of loose newspapers charging and go to sleep, use some common sense. But you don't have to keep a safer chemistry battery in your fireplace to sleep safe.

I run my lipo on a hot rod dirt bike, or to extend range for extremely long rides on the cargo bikes. My daily use of e bikes is done with safer and convenient bms equipped batteries I don't have to stay awake and watch charge.

Get yourself a decent 13 or 15 ah bike pack with bms. Spend your budget on that. Later on, you can work on improvements to the cheapo kit, replace it with all new better wheels, whatever. DONT let yourself get sucked into lipo for a daily commute.

 

[ozman]

RC charger with power supply and lipo batteries are a messy solution that you need to constantly keep an eye on.

Plugging in balance leads to charge is a PITA.

I won't be doing it again anytime soon

18650 pack and one of Justins chargers would be my pick at the voltage your looking at.

The battery and charger is probably the most important choice you will have to make

 

[Grizzl-E]

The maintenance of lipo vs an 18650 pack is not the only factor. If your not used to taking care of lipo, ie never overdischarge, never leave them for more than a couple days fully charged. You likely won't get anywhere near the 300 cycles you can get if you baby them. You might get half that. Then they look pretty expensive next to an 18650 pack with bms that will last 300+ cycles easily. As stated above, lipo is a pain.

 

[wesnewell]

I disagree with most everything said here about rc lipo. First, safety.vs 18650.
I've had a couple of packs swell, but none burst into flames in the 5 years I've been using them exclusively. At least with rc lipo, you can visibly see if there's a problem. There's no warning when an 18650 explodes. Most 18650 recommend < 1C charge rate, and many <0.5C, so it takes hours to charge an 18650 pack at recommended rates. At rc lipo 1C recommended rates it only takes an hour to charge a pack if yo have a charger that will do 1C. How safe is rc lipo? read this and then determine for yourself.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27241
Charging
There's absolutely no difference in charging if you use a bms in both cases except you can charge rc lipo a lot faster and not exceed the recommended charge rate.
Longevity
There's no reason an rc lipo pack won't last as long or longer than an 18650 pack. I don't keep track of cycles, but I've got almost 4 years and over 14K miles on my current 888wh 10ah 24s pack. And that's no fewer than 400 charge cycles at ~80% dod. And it still has well over 80% capacity. I charge to full charge every time but never discharge below 10% soc. the pack stays on the bike in the garage at all times except when I charge it. Temp varies between 30f during the winter and 130F during the summer with the sun beating down on the garage. We average 18 days at 100F or more per year, with a record high of 111F. Record low is -3F.
Cost
I recently bought 2 888wh packs for $180 each. That's ~20 cents per wh. If you don't already have charging solutions, that will be extra, but it's basically a one time purchase. That can vary between $50 and $200, depending on how and how fast you want to charge.