Newbie, suggestions

[kent1956]

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and ebikes in general. I've looked at different electric bikes, complete builds, but I am a tinkerer and handyman and like to do things myself. Besides I don't just want assisted riding, or limited range. I know I ask alot of my bicycle, but long distance use is my goal. Normally I ride locally, with in 5 miles of home for shopping and commuting. But I want more....like Tim Allen, "more power"...

I am not looking to go 25-30 miles an hour, just want more distance.

I own a Sun Bicycle EZ-1 recumbent and am interested in making it an Ebike.

Lots of questions, best motor set up? Hub? Chain drive?

Batteries? I think LiPo4 from what I've been reading. I like the idea of mounting them on the sides of a rear rack, low for low center of gravity.

Controller? not at all sure what types, brands are good, better, best?

Perhaps a trailer with additional batteries for extended trips/shopping?

I live in sub-tropical Florida and ride rain or shine and would need to be concerned with water proofing. Perhaps build fiberglass boxes to house components that are subseptable to water damage.

Also I saw an article in Home Power magazine where a guy mounted solar panels on the rear of his electric moped to recharge the batteries when he was stopped. I like that idea and am interested in incorporating it into my design. Perhaps best mounted on a trailer for extended touring.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[DahonElectric]

Kent,

It really depends solely upon your terrain -- lots of hills? It also depends if you're planning to assist the bike or not the whole way. If you do then your mileage will go up without needing a lot of battery capacity.

You see, what really happens for people who are looking into more range is that, ultimately you're going to add weight onto your bike, which makes your bike heavier and heavier. If you add a trailer with spare batteries attached, you're also adding the weight of the trailer, the batteries in it as well as the drag from the trailer itself. Although it may not mean much if your motor is doing all the work, but you need to have a contingency plan if the motor or electric system fails in middle of your commute or travel. Personally, it had already happened to me 3 times with my BIONX system, the latest incident involves my battery pack -- apparently the circuit was jolted severly by road imperfections that it malfunctioned causing it to refuse charging. My Bionx system is probably in the shop more than my Chyrsler mini-van, which as you know is not at all reliable to begin with.

Luckily, my Bionx system is light enough that I can pedal home in the middle of nowhere. But what if your heavy system fails -- the transistor blew, the battery cell's went dead (it'll be a challenge if you've got lots of batteries to get your extended range) and all of that weighs more than 80lbs?

Not to alarm you or anything, but if you want to choose a system, choose one that is the most reliable -- which is an oxymoron because we are mostly ginuea pigs to the electric bike makers.
In terms of weight, you will need to use your motor assist more to overcome the extra weight up the hill and on the start, because 40lbs of extra weight on your bike is 40lbs of weight. To get you up to speed is to counter the additional 40lbs weight, so plan on sparing this power to overcome the excess weight. The problem is, people tend to add more weight to the bike to get more capacity, but at the same time that they are using this extra capacity to overcome more of the extra battery weight to get going. It's a vicious cycle.

In terms of solar panel charging.. Unless you have access to military or NASA grade solar panels (which are somewhat efficient), the stuff that's on the market now won't quick charge your high capacity battery in a short little while. It's like the regeneration function on the Bionx system -- we know that it has limited usage in efficiently converting kinetic energy back into the battery.

Having said that, I think the eZee system is a good system to look into. It's somewhat waterproof, geared hub for good hill climbing and ok workmanship. Bionx is another contender. You can always carry several battery packs for more range, but you need to ride the bike and share power output with the motor..

 

[dogman dan]

I live in the desert so I know squat about riding in the rain. Some northwesterners have had trouble despite the best efforts to waterproof, so to me it seems like, you can ride wet but don't if you can. Controllers and stuff can be sealed, but boxing stuff up in southern heat may not work so good unless there is some kind of venting that still keeps water out. I find I can ride through puddles without much trouble if they are not deep.

Range and efficient motors are easy if you have some money to throw at it. Brushless hubs of all makes are pretty efficient, and for controllers you want to look for ones in the 20-30 amp range for efficiency. This usually gives you 18-20 mph at 36v, and 22-24 mph at 48 for most mid sise brushless motors. Examples are the crystalite 408, Golden, and Wilderness energy BL36. In another class are gearmotors, which really shine in hills, or towing a big load. They make a bit more noise, and if run too hard, can have problems with the gears, but they are really nice if you want to only use the motor as needed. The gearmotors freewheel, where the hub motors have a cogging resisitance that can feel like a flat tire or dragging brakes. So that makes range extension by pure peadling much more possible. The bionx freewheels too I think and is also known for huge range. You won't need a trailer for the batteries with any of the above motors if you use Lifepo4.

The long range battery is the Ebay Lifepo4. Lots of sellers but the one with a perfect reputation is Li Ping. You can email him for a direct sale price, so don't choose just by the auction price without talking to him. 20 amp hour sise is the ticket, and still weighs only about 22 pounds for a 20ah 48v. Most folks find one good for a thirty mile range, or more if they peadle a lot.

Expect to spend close to $1500 for the stuff, not including the bike. If you do decide you want speed, a totally different approach to the battery is needed to handle the more powerful motor, generally building your own pack. Fortunately if you change your mind later, Pings batteries sell instanlty on the used market.

 

[kent1956]

Thanks guys,

Already I see that I was very naive in thinking I could get E-car like travel from a E-bicycle.

Having electric assist and being able to extend my pedaling range on normal days is a good goal.

I have looked at some solar bike designs and think that might work somewhat, but would be best on a scooter set up, where you have a stonger motor and frame to work off of.

Most of my normal day to day use would be local, commuting to work or running errands to the store both with in a couple of miles from home.

Waterproofing is an important consideration. I can wear rain gear, but I would have to protect the electronics.

 

[Anonymous]

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[marvingalaxy]

I don't think you were naive to think that an ebike could be functional transportation. If you live 40 miles from work and the road to get there is 50+ mph speed with hills you probably won't be able to use an ebike due to the power demands and conflicting traffic speeds. On the other hand, it seems that 20-30 mile round trips at 20-25mph are indeed possible. If you live in a city with side streets or boulevards with bike lanes you are in business. If you can charge your battery at work for several hours, you can either extend the range or get a bit more speed.

I am new to this and am waiting parts for my first build. With 20+ mile range at 25mph with some gradual hills as my typical route, I chose the Crystalyte 5304 (Phoenix Cruiser from electricrider.com), a custom Infineon controller from "Knuckles", and I hope to get a 24-30AH battery from Ping. The motor/wheel with shipping to Hawaii was $600. The controller/throttle are about $160 and I plan to spend about $1100 on about a 28AH 48V LiFePO4 battery from Ping (assuming shipping issues are resolved). I weigh 200lbs. and have an incline the last 3 miles of my trip so I want extra capacity so the battery isn't stressed too much. It is generally better to have low-moderate draw on a battery. For instance, I plan to use the "1C rate" of the battery (same drain as amp-hours) as my guide which means 28AH x 48V = 1344Watts for one hour. That's a fair amount of juice and should propel me up a hill at 20mph without excess strain. It should be sufficient for 30mph on the flats but I'm planning to run at about 25mph to conserve power.

Think about it. 25mph is a pretty good speed compared to rush hour traffic. I am fortunate in that Honolulu has multi-lane one-way boulevards (King and Beretania) with 30mph speed limits. I won't have to contend with one-lane fast traffic backing up behind me and I won't have 50mph traffic opposing me one lane over. What is your situation? Side streets? Bike lanes? Wide shoulders? Steep hills? All these things factor into your needs from a vehicle. If you have some money to spend, you can get over a few of the obstacles with extra power. If you can live with 20mph speeds and some pedaling you can do it for about $1000 not including the bike.

BTW, nobody mentioned ampedbikes.com. I believe Danny Ray (user "ampedbikes") said that he had his motors tank tested. Search the forums or visit his site and ask him about his waterproofing. If I find that Hawaii weather is too much for a Crystalyte, I am probably going to try his system although it is less powerful. I've read that it is actually quite nice overvolted (void your warranty) to 48V. The big money is in the battery and the more you get the better the theoretical life and power. If you don't weigh 200lbs and don't mind cruising at about 20mph you can get some serious miles out of a $750 48V20AH pack (36V for ampedbikes.com kit).

 

[DahonElectric]

In my opinion, the current ebikes out there can become functional transportation vehicles if we have a specific mindset of them. If you expect reliability like a car of a motorbike, which have had their designs improved and refined over many years or even centuries, you will begin to realize that ebike designs itself will come up short. The problems with controllers on the first batch of the eZee kits and a few dealers who got stung selling them only to have complaints from their customers and the refusal of some of these companies to admit to their mistakes, Bionx included. I once phoned the 1-866 number asking about their waterproofness of the system, because on Youtube, the sales guy said it's waterproof. I asked them about their IPX rating. IPX is an industry standard for rating the waterproofness of the electric device. If you look at the rugged Garmin handheld GPS units, they are rated IPX 7 or IEC 529, which means they are good for 1 meter of water immersion for UP TO 30 minutes. Only IPX 8 is rated for continuous water immersion. If you are in the wettest climate of the world, you should look at least at this rating to see how good the waterproofness is. Many kits claim waterproofness, but fail to identify and or subject them to IPX standards rating. The people at Bionx are very nice, albeit too frenchy to me, but the arrogance when I asked about the IPX rating and that their system does not need to be tested. They said it's waterproof enough.. When the dealer showed me the internals of their battery box, not only it was poorly soldered but it doesn't even come close to IPX 1, the minimum standard, which I now realize that I can't ride with it in a heavy downpour.

In order to protect your electronics, your hub must be sealed against water. What is the hub's IPX rating or at the minimum its IEC rating (European standards)? No one seems to like listing it. The electronics and battery must be sealed against water penetration. What is the IPX rating for that?!? How can a business dare to be in business by claiming waterproofness without supplying an IPX standard rating is beyond me.
That goes to show how the ebike industry is still in its infancy and due to demand, people don't ask too many questions and willing to overlook certain issues.

By the way, some digital cameras are IPX rated. The Pentax Optio WP series and the Olympus 1030SW are both rated IPX 8 and both have lithium batteries for operation and both are said to be waterproof. And that I believe. The ebike kits, however, I do not unless you have a specific mindset of their waterproofness. And taking a digital photo of a controller being doused by water under the tap doesn't count. A $5000 Nikon D3 or a Canon 1d Mark 3 can withstand some water and rain because it's got weather resistant seals, but it's not waterproof because water can still go through its bayonet mount..

 

[kent1956]

Thanks again all,

Your adivce adds greatly to my paradigm of using electric on my bike.

Been reading about fuel cells on bikes. A fuel cell manufacturer called, Horizon, has a partnership with a bike company. I wrote asking for info about them. Also Swizzbee AG, Hydrocycle, and Enjoy FC bicycle.

Also in conjunction with a FC power plant, does anyone here have practical knowledge about using a hydrogen generator on a bike? I'm interested in the Stan Meyers generator as it seems to work at a very high efficiency.

I understand there would be a need to have a battery to handle peak demands with this type of system, but that it could keep one traveling for great distances, with out more than a topping off of a water tank. Provided everything keeps functioning properly that is....The goal here is again, long distance travel without having to plug into an outlet, thinking about a ride across America..

 

[dogman dan]

For that, Justins rig to cross canada is what you want. A good bike and big ol pile of batteries. About 60 ah of lifepo4 will get you far enough to want to rest.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Thanks again all,

Your adivce adds greatly to my paradigm of using electric on my bike.

Been reading about fuel cells on bikes. A fuel cell manufacturer called, Horizon, has a partnership with a bike company. I wrote asking for info about them. Also Swizzbee AG, Hydrocycle, and Enjoy FC bicycle.

Also in conjunction with a FC power plant, does anyone here have practical knowledge about using a hydrogen generator on a bike? I'm interested in the Stan Meyers generator as it seems to work at a very high efficiency.

I understand there would be a need to have a battery to handle peak demands with this type of system, but that it could keep one traveling for great distances, with out more than a topping off of a water tank. Provided everything keeps functioning properly that is....The goal here is again, long distance travel without having to plug into an outlet, thinking about a ride across America..

I did a lot of research into this, as there is a bike on the market with a Fuel cell already. its relitivly cheap at $2600 equivilent, but it's not offered in the US that I could find.

The Fuel cell is only about 50% efficent, and that makes the energy usable per pound of fuel less than Lithium batteries.

The other thing that is kind of a rumor, or widly believed fact, is that a fuel cell can run on water. It can't. not on it's own. It takes more energy to split water into Hydrogen and oxyegn than it has available to use, even if it was 100% efficent.

 

[swbluto]

I did a lot of research into this, as there is a bike on the market with a Fuel cell already. its relitivly cheap at $2600 equivilent, but it's not offered in the US that I could find.

The Fuel cell is only about 50% efficent, and that makes the energy usable per pound of fuel less than Lithium batteries.

The other thing that is kind of a rumor, or widly believed fact, is that a fuel cell can run on water. It can't. not on it's own. It takes more energy to split water into Hydrogen and oxyegn than it has available to use, even if it was 100% efficent.

Yeah, those claims seem pretty equivocal. It's like someone magically makes it run on water and any more detailed examination reveals they're using electricity for hydrolysis to split apart the hydrogen and oxygen and using the hydrogen for fuel, and the actual energy source is the "electricity"; The water is just a "battery" whose "charged state" is split apart hydrogen. And, it's a pretty sucky battery at that due to electrolysis's efficiency and the efficiency of extracting energy from hydrogen; but... water is a pretty cheap "battery", considering its upfront costs but it takes more electricity per unit energy so the running costs are higher.

But it might be cheaper in the long-term since there's no expensive batteries to replace(Water's pretty cheap). I wonder how that Hydrogen economy research of the early 2000's would compare to the current fuel economy.

 

[kent1956]

Just found this kit for an EZ-1 recumbent....http://www.semifusion.com/products/electricBikes/electricBikes.html