No One Gives A Rat’s Ass

[2old]

Agree:
1) The DIY industry needs to coalesce and initiate guidelines before they're forced down our throats.
2) In socal we've worked for years to have congruence with the hiking and equestrian community. Probably be self-policing for anyone threatening that harmony.
3) Our 28 mph speed limit seems adequate for riders and constabulary. No problem as long as you're not an ass, have a bike that looks like one and pedal.
4) As usual, our litigious society will be a consideration someday.
5) Agree with WH that comments about hikers and equestrians "getting the hell out of the way" will be brought up to our detriment at a trail access meeting someday.

 

[neptronix]

Worst thing you can do is set up a blog with good search engine optimization and blag on about how great illegal bikes are, using the terms 'illegal', 'law', and 'ebike' so that the likely hood of Johnny law or an overzealous lawmaker finds it is as high as possible..

 

[WoodlandHills]

There is a huge difference between access issues for street ebikes and for off-road ebikes. For a start, in most places, ebikes are banned entirely from MTB and Multi Use Trails in the first place and are in the position of having to petition for expanded access. We all know that those who oppose access are readers of E-S, Karl's Blog, the Luna videos and sales site, etc. and we also know they are quite good at cutting and pasting and embedding links........ Still, the cat was out of the bag regarding power levels/wattage long before Karl wrote his commentary and it was always something the industry or, more likely it seems, the regulators will have to deal with sooner rather than later.

 

[E-geezer]

It seems to me the desire to have one's cake and eat it too blurs the lines of what would be the most realisitc way to achieve the goals of wanting to ride what you want, where you want to. Consider speed differentials and places to ride. There's places for low speed users like on a bike path or single track and places for high speed users like a road or bike lane. Sure, you could ride a high speed vehicle like a motorcycle on a bike path safely if you were responsible, but most people wouldn't and the government agency who owns it would want to limit their liability by limiting it to use by low speed vehicles.

As I see it, ebikes are electric bikes that normally operate with the same speed range an average bike rider would, which on the flats is 15-20. Can you go faster on a regular road bike? Sure, but not many people can hammer along at 30mph for an hour at a time. A 250-750w ebike is a lot like a bike. For most people, for both recreation and transportation, 20-25mph is plenty.

High powered ebikes are closer to mopeds than bike in performance and are better suited to roads and bike lanes where you need to go faster, for safety and for efficiency, a 30-35 mph speed limit seems appropriate here to me.

Want to go faster? I'd rather be on an electric motorcycle.

I think it's a mistake to try to call a 4000w ebike an ebike, in the long run, it'll only hurt ebike access. Register it as a moped and ride it fast where it's suited to go fast. They'll do nothing but doom access on offroad trails as well, I consider it a victory that we're not stuck with the EU standards, you'll never get 3000w ebikes allowed on hiking trails. To stubbornly cling to the notion that we're entitled to ride any sort of electric bike anywhere, while attractive, flies in the face of the reality of the world (in the us) that we live in. There is going to be legislation and as legislation is, it will be restrictive, it would be better to work to create legislation that allows us to ride what we want, where we want even if that means it's not everywhere. Otherwise, retailers are hanging their ass out there selling "illegal" bikes and we will endlessly be talking about how you can get away with riding it. Be done with it, call them a moped, sell them as a moped and have a blast ripping around legally.

 

[dogman dan]

For a 4000w street e bike,, I like the term, unregistered unlicensed uninsured home made motorcycle with pedals. Or the shorter term, Illegal home made motorcycle with pedals. But if the speed is limited,, you could be still legal in some states. NM for one,, no watt limit, but a 30 mph speed limit. Legally,, not allowed on bike paths though. I'm a moped in this state.

For off road, at least in my state,, 4000w illegal only on trails with the no motors signage. So then it's just flyweight motorcycle. No one should give a rats ass about that use. Ride it anywhere riding your off road quad or bike is legal to ride.

But if you take your flyweight motorcycle, and cut ruts into a single track bicycle trail lovingly cared for by the locals,, that's not cool at all.

 

[Johnez]

Worst thing you can do is set up a blog with good search engine optimization and blag on about how great illegal bikes are, using the terms 'illegal', 'law', and 'ebike' so that the likely hood of Johnny law or an overzealous lawmaker finds it is as high as possible..

This.

It seems this guy is living in a bubble where everyone is building their own little rocket bike. I get that he's into pushing the limits and is on the bleeding edge of ebike tech, buuuuuuut 90% of the possible market is in it for the transportation aspect. 500/1000 watts, 28 mph, 30 mile range is where we should be pushing. There is a wide open market here, neither $5000 prebuilt proprietary tech machines or $1000 kits from China are tapping it. Legalizing THAT and pushing for that will get the ball moving forward in quality, reliability and growth. Once ebike prices are down to below the price of a more reliable 15 year old beater car will we see progress.

 

[LewTwo]

Once ebike prices are down to below the price of a more reliable 15 year old beater car will we see progress.

E-bikes are my single mode of transport these days. A couple of years of automotive registration, inspections, tax, tag and maintenance can cover the cost of a lower end DIY e-bike. Of course I have spent more than that ... I get curious

I think that most of the technology is pretty well mature. The one breakthrough we need is a better power source/battery: more capacity, lighter weight and cheaper. There are some possibilities but I have not seem anything than indicates a breakthrough in the next several years (hopefully someone will prove me wrong). More likely I think that we will see some refinements in the control systems, better integration and maybe in mechanical power transmission.

 

[markz]

I would just like higher capacity (Ah) battery cans and lithium pouches.
I think it would be ultra cool to have a 10A or 15A discharge can in the 4.5 or 5Ah range, plus have them last longer when treated right.

 

[Chalo]

I think it would be ultra cool to have a 10A or 15A discharge can in the 4.5 or 5Ah range,

That sounds like a 26650 cell to me.

 

[LewTwo]

I think it would be ultra cool to have a 10A or 15A discharge can in the 4.5 or 5Ah range,

That sounds like a 26650 cell to me.

I was thinking Headway
http://www.eclipsebikes.com/headway-lifepo4-38120s-10ah-p-1011.html
Capacity: [strike]20 Ahr[/strike] 10Ahr
Discharge current: 30 Amps
Cycles: 2000

 

[Eskimo]

What i would love to have and see legally on the road is high-power, fast velomobiles. 2000W does wonders for a velomobile. You don"t even wanna ride those things on bicycle lanes, you want to stay on the road, so there"s no danger for pedestrians and kinetic power is low, you are basically only killing yourself with them. They should be legal.
Take something like Milan XL, and put 3000W MXUS hub on it, there"s lotta space for batteries - and have fun. Low power consumption on flat road while going fast.
Of course many commercial velos are slightly too weak for serious DD, but with some R&D...I would like to see a velomobile spesifically designed for high-power E-drive. Now that"s my baby. I think they will pop up in the future, because there"s advantages and they are really fun to ride.

 

[amberwolf]

@LewTwo:
THose are 10Ah (at best, when used at 0.5C, or 5A) cells, not 20Ah.

They're also kinda high resistance (saggy) at 6mohm.

And large, and heavy. I've seen a couple of bikes built with them, in person, and while they do work, and are easy to connect up (including backwards, which has caused at least one fire I've read of), there are better cells out there.

from the link in your post:

Nominal Capacity: 10000mAh (0.5c)
Nominal Voltage: 3.2V
Charging Voltage: 3.65V ± 0.05V
Cut Off Discharge Voltage: 2.0V
Charging Method: CC/CV
Max Charge Current: 2C (20A)
Max Discharge Current (Continuous): 3C (30A)
Max Pulse Discharge Current: 10C (100A)
Cycle Life: 2000 Cycles 1C 80% DOD
Energy Density: 105Wh/KG
Power Density: 850W/KG
Initial Internal Impedance: <6mΩ
Storage Temperature: One Month -20°C - 45°C Six Months -20°C - 35°C
Operation Temperature: Charge 0-45°C Discharge -20°C - 60°C
Diameter (mm): 38±1
Height (mm): 122±1
Weight: 346g

 

[LewTwo]

@LewTwo:
THose are 10Ah (at best, when used at 0.5C, or 5A) cells, not 20Ah.

oops ... my bad

 

[dogman dan]

Batteries really have improved,, however,, we use to talk a lot about when they would be cheaper. We don't talk that much about that now do we,

I used to dream about being able to go to Walmart, and buy a 12v 10 ah lifepo4 brick for about 50 bucks. From the kids electric car section. Not happening.

 

[Green Machine]

Worst thing you can do is set up a blog with good search engine optimization and blag on about how great illegal bikes are, using the terms 'illegal', 'law', and 'ebike' so that the likely hood of Johnny law or an overzealous lawmaker finds it is as high as possible..

yeah what this guy said...... that is the worst you can do..... some rat ass bastard using search engine optimization cuz johnny law is sitting around using the google to find us because they ran out of leads ..... the horror. The worst!!!!

 

[mlt34]

I think it would be ultra cool to have a 10A or 15A discharge can in the 4.5 or 5Ah range,

That sounds like a 26650 cell to me.

Or Tesla/Panasonic's new 2170 cell. I'm not sure what the final AH rating on it is, but it's right around that level. Not sure about the discharge rate, but 2C would give it the 10A you're looking for, which is plenty for most ebike applications since you'll rarely find packs of less than 3p. A 4p pack could give 20AH and 40A discharge rate (assuming the 10A discharge rate holds true for the 2170 cell) which IMO is phenomenal. 20AH and 40A discharge with 4p?!

 

[boytitan]

I agreed 350 watt e bikes are total junk and jokes. The rest of his review is pointless mid drive motor praise. Also from his talk of snow he seems like a inexperienced bike rider in general when it comes to rough terrain. I live in buffalo newyork and can pedal through snow on the right tires. With my ebike I can't wait for the challenge of snow again to plow threw it.

Also he had a perfect chance to highlight the real reason to not travel at your max speed. It leaves no room to accelerate in a situation where you need to go faster do dodge a car etc person.Thats why you want something that can go fast and leave room to go faster. On 2 wheels to save your ass sometimes its to late to slow down and you need to speed up due a driver making a bad decision. Also his refusal for turn signals is just ignorant. Turn signals need to come to bikes in general and not just e bikes because turning is a pain in the butt and no driver is going to pay attention to the universal bike hand signals 9 times out of 10 and I question a driver noticing turn signals on a bike with specialty made turn signal lights. For safety turn signals need to become standard on all bikes.

The guy even gets hit by a car 3 times yet does not see the value in turn signals...

 

[LewTwo]

I agreed 350 watt e bikes are total junk and jokes..

Everyone has a right to their opinion regardless how misguided it might be.

 

[Chalo]

I agreed 350 watt e bikes are total junk and jokes..

Everyone has a right to their opinion regardless how misguided it might be.

Since he can't produce 350W for more than a few minutes at most, I guess he's telling us what we should think of him.

 

[dogman dan]

Re more speed to get out of danger. yes,, that can work. But what has worked for me is out turning the car.

No car ever hit me,, in a lifetime. Some days they tried to 5 times in one day, but never got me.

The maneuver for me, is usually a locked rear brake first, skidding sideways, then full gas, then lock the rear and skid the opposite way. You can't steer with both brakes locked, but you can with just the rear. This is usually used at a light, or anywhere a car turns left in front of you. Can work on a right cross too, you must get around him either way. Braking in a straight line won't help, its too late for that. You have to match that cars turn in the opposite way. But this puts you about to cross the traffic that is not turning, so you gotta turn again really fast, and thread the needle between the cars going your way, and the cars coming at you. This is done if you are on a bicycle, e bike, moped, or motorcycle. If motorcycle,, going too fast to be able to do this maneuver is suicide. If you get caught that way,, lay it down and try to hit the car tires and feet first vs helmet first.

Oh,, and yeah right,, I have lots of time to use turn signals before doing this. Nothing wrong with them when changing lanes or whatever. Or,, you could just not change lanes when it would matter if the car saw your signal.

This is how you get through a lifetime without a car ever hitting you. It's not relying on them seeing signals. It relying on you avoiding them at all costs.

 

[craneplaneguy]

Yeah, riding two wheeled vehicles is the best defensive driving training ever, it sure teaches you good habits. I have to laugh when I'm sitting at a red light in the 54,000 lb crane, and then when the light turns green and the car drivers along side of me just punch it and proceed through the intersection, WITHOUT LOOKING,but I first look both ways to see if anyone is blowing through the intersection, like I'm on my old Honda or my bike, old habits, that keep you alive, die hard.

 

[boytitan]

I agreed 350 watt e bikes are total junk and jokes..

Everyone has a right to their opinion regardless how misguided it might be.

Since he can't produce 350W for more than a few minutes at most, I guess he's telling us what we should think of him.

I could easily out pedal a P.O.S 350 watt e bike.

I used to skid for the fun of it on my turns but I worry about my tire exposing my inner tube. I stopped skidding after a few pench flats on my first road bike which I will admit had cheap tires I also did not inflate to max psi back then. Ill try again when I am not running knobby tires to deal with snow and wet conditions of winter since I plan on only using top of the line tires from now on.

1500 watt ebikes and above how ever are full blown mopeds or low speed motorcycles and should be classified as such. Calling them electric bikes hurts electric bike users. If you take all the turn signals off a moped with pedals that you upgraded to a 80cc engine does it magically become a bike ? No its a moped at that a more dangerous moped since you removed the safety features.

 

[e-beach]

.....They should be as low as 5 mph in specific areas. Sections of Venice or Pacific beach for example. ......

Depending on the time of day and day of year the Venice beach bike path self limits the speed by the sheer amount of traffic on it. Pedestrians are always confused and are walking on it like it is the boardwalk. Peddlers 4 and 5 across making safe passing nearly impossible. A hair pin turn just south of the Santa Monica/Venice border where the sand builds up and people wash out and crash every day causing traffic jams. And just try to get up to the Santa Monica Pier for a Thursday night summer concert. (Ever see a movie where a bizzzllion zombies come out of nowhere and take over the place?) Well, it's the same difference around here for the Thursday night concerts at the pier. :lol:

Yea, I guess 5mph would be OK except it is illegal to ride an e-bike on the bike-paths along the local beaches around here anyway. That is why you see my feet peddling, either forward or backward on the chain-ring. Just so long as it looks like my feet are "somehow" moving the bike.

What people don't get about e-bikes around here its that it is ok to plug them like a cell phone. The "plug it in" part seems to confuse them. We have all heard it before..."What if my battery runs out?"

 

[WoodlandHills]

I am surprised to hear that ebikes were banned from public bike paths in Venice. It was my impression that Class 1 and 2 were allowed everywhere in CA and I've ridden electrically along the beach path from Will Rogers to Manhattan Beach a couple of times in the last year with no incident. BTW I never move my feet on my street bike......

Have you been stopped in the past on the path? I am pretty sure that no body can ride any kind of bike along the part in front of the stores and shops, is that what you are talking about?

 

[e-beach]

.........It was my impression that Class 1 and 2 were allowed everywhere in CA and I've ridden electrically along the beach path from Will Rogers to Manhattan Beach a couple of times in the last year with no incident. BTW I never move my feet on my street bike......

Have you been stopped in the past on the path? I am pretty sure that no body can ride any kind of bike along the part in front of the stores and shops, is that what you are talking about?

Sorry my mistake. And all that backward peddling for nothing. :lol:

Yes class 1 an 2 e-bikes can go on the class 1 beach bike path. No, never been stopped on the bike path by the police for riding. Pedestrians, peddle bikes, crashed bikers, kite strings, piles of sand from the wind or a really high tide, drunkards passed out and laying across the path, yes, they have stopped me, but not the police. And there was the time an out-of-control skater learning how to skate flailed his hand in such a way that the back of it smashed across my nose giving me a heck of a nose-bleed. That stopped me for a while.



http://www.bicycleretailer.com/site...icle/CA E-Bike Infographic .jpg?itok=wUWoiH79