Overvolted the "Name that Motor" today

[SamTexas]

Don't reassemble the controller yet! Since you're concerned about the controller max current, might as well make the simple and easy shunt modification now. By simply adding some soldering lead to the shunt you could significantly increase the max current.

 

[catchinem]

Don't reassemble the controller yet! Since you're concerned about the controller max current, might as well make the simple and easy shunt modification now. By simply adding some soldering lead to the shunt you could significantly increase the max current.

Ah Ha! Sounds like a plan. I'll clean it up some more and take a picture of the entire board and you can point it out to me. I have a solder iron and solder. I ordered 2 of these kits and the second one has a noise in the motor that shouldn't be there. I contacted the seller and he is sending his last one to me to replace the bad one and he told me just to keep the bad one also, so that's how I ended up with 3 of these kits. After we get the controller modded I'll open up the noisey motor and see what we have inside! I enjoyed y'alls help today. Thanks.

 

[parabellum]

Don't reassemble the controller yet! Since you're concerned about the controller max current, might as well make the simple and easy shunt modification now. By simply adding some soldering lead to the shunt you could significantly increase the max current.

Ah Ha! Sounds like a plan. I'll clean it up some more and take a picture of the entire board and you can point it out to me. I have a solder iron and solder. I ordered 2 of these kits and the second one has a noise in the motor that shouldn't be there. I contacted the seller and he is sending his last one to me to replace the bad one and he told me just to keep the bad one also, so that's how I ended up with 3 of these kits. After we get the controller modded I'll open up the noisey motor and see what we have inside! I enjoyed y'alls help today. Thanks.

Your shunts are probably those big resistors in the left upper corner (in the picture)-1, or if you see some massive jumper somewhere else.

 

[wesnewell]

OK, you don't need to insulate the fet plates. Just don't short the legs

Sure on that one? I would not give such recommendation.

Actually such "plate" is usually connected to Source or Drain of the fet, which means you will successfully short few fet groups with no insulation.

Yea, I could be wrong about this when using a common heat sink. Standard procedure is to use a mica insulator with hs compound on both sides.

 

[NeilP]

OK, you don't need to insulate the fet plates. Just don't short the legs. Those plates are for mounting heat sinks to them. That's why each one has a hole in it.

Oh yes you do. It is connected to the Drain..Pin 2

So half of those FET's will have battery voltage directly on the tab. check out the data sheet I posted...top of Page 6.

I just repaired a controller that the case was live on ..at 84 volts. The controller had got to hot, and that combined with a split in the insulating tape..thin brown stuff as seen in the picture, caused a short from the tab to the heat sink and a live case.

Some people when upgrading their controllers to take more current actually feed power directly to the FERs directly through the tabs, so you have power from a thick wire direct to the FET not going via thin traces on the board.
That approach will not help in this case though as this controller almost certainly can't be programmed to allow higher currents.

BUT
SamTexas is correct

Don't reassemble the controller yet! Since you're concerned about the controller max current, might as well make the simple and easy shunt modification now. By simply adding some soldering lead to the shunt you could significantly increase the max current.

If there are easily visible thick shunt wire(s) on the controller, then you can do as he says and modify the shunt to increase current.
Here is what is happening.
The shunt takes all the current from the battery, and the voltage drop across it is measured via a resistor string and the controller processor, which then limits the current. If you make the shunt thicker, and therefore a lower resistance, the voltage drop across it for a certain current flow is less, so mor current is allowed to flow till the processor senses the limiting voltage drop across the shunt. So thickening the shunt with solder or possible a thicker wire will increase the current limit.
If you have more than one shunt, you can bridge them with solder. if you only have one shunt, you could solder a short one inch length of wire across it..maybe across the back of the board. use multistrand wire, and leave a section exposed. Then You can snip out individual strands, if you make the current limit too high......
or remove it completely, fit a new piece of thicker wire, then shave it down.
Yuo have spare controllers so you have room to experiment.


So if you are not after highway speeds, then I would certainly just try one of these controllers first at 14 series LiPo 58 volts. with and without shunt current mods.



There is really no reason not to go with LiPo i your situation, as long as you have a bit of space to make a safe charging area. You are not going to get a LiPo fire if you keep an eye on balance and cell voltages. Do not charge to more than 4.15 per cell, keep to less than 80% discharge..I keep my packs above 3.5 per cell at all times. at an absolute minimum. My LVC is set to 3.6 volt per cell 72 volts for a 20s pack. Most of the capacity is drained by then anyway.

 

[NeilP]

With regard to photos.

Could you take two pics..as square to the board as you can direct from above.

High a quality as possible.

Two pics one of each side of the board. Try and get each picture to the board fills the same amount of the view finder each time

I'll PM you with my e-mail address and if you can e-mail them to me please, then I will try and do what I did in the following link...make a composite pic of front and rear of the board like I did here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27199&start=210

see the last post on Page 15 of that thread.

 

[parabellum]

then I will try and do what I did in the following link...make a composite pic of front and rear of the board like I did here:

Cool overlay composition.

 

[NeilP]

Works better when you can fade between the two in Photoshop, then you can really see what connects to where

 

[catchinem]

Been digging some more. See a shunt yet??

 

[parabellum]

Those 2 metallic jumper like rods on first photo looks very shunty.

 

[SamTexas]

Those 2 metallic jumper like rods on first photo looks very shunty.

+1
Yes, they look very promising. You'll need to clean up real well the area surrounding those two jumpers.

NeilP, very cool overlaying!

 

[catchinem]

Man...that's some tedious picking! Have y'all ever seen a controller with this stuff injected into it? It fills every nook and cranny. I hooked it it to the bike and everything still works! No damage done yet. Since we assumed that it would only put out 15 amps and we would like for it to put out 25-30 should we go ahead and add some solder to both shunts? Or, is it time to invest in a CA or something else to measure the amp output it currently has?

 

[parabellum]

If you beef it up, do not go to wild, shunt is made of high resistance materials like nichrome, R is several times higher as same gauge cooper or even solder mix. You do not want 200A controller for now, right?

 

[wesnewell]

Man...that's some tedious picking! Have y'all ever seen a controller with this stuff injected into it? It fills every nook and cranny. I hooked it it to the bike and everything still works! No damage done yet. Since we assumed that it would only put out 15 amps and we would like for it to put out 25-30 should we go ahead and add some solder to both shunts? Or, is it time to invest in a CA or something else to measure the amp output it currently has?

I've not seen one filled like that, but I've only had 3 different models. I wouldn't assume that controller is shunted for just 15A either. Either get the specs on it or test it with a watt meter.

And as for fet plates. Not all require insulation. Depends on application. However, it appears most controllers need them insulated.

 

[NeilP]

Yep, they are the shunts.

It would make your life easier to have a Standalone Cycle Analyst

Get the one pictured with the separate magnetic speed input.

If not then either a clamp on ammeter or a big automotive one, but I would definitely go for a CA for when the bike is built up.

I have a set like this ..They just sit over a single wire

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57101
http://global.ebay.com/Blue-Point-starter-Current-indicator-Automotive-gauge-meter-MT109-Tool-tester-NR/190586392600/item



You can solder up the shunt, but you wont notice any difference to the current the controller draws or the max speed while running the motor up under no load. You will probably only really notice any difference once under load, so once the bike is built up.

The motor will run up to max speed under no load with very little current. Remember max speed is determined by voltage, not current.
You will only see the benefit of a current mod once under load and pulling away.

As for the FET's needing insulation or not. Well since one of your earlier pictures had a strip of Kapton tape, i would suggest they do.
But easy to test. you have a volt meter? Well connect the battery up to the controller, with negative volt meter probe to the battery and check to see if the tabs are live. Test them all. Chances are some only come live when throttle is opened. Obviously make sure you have good contact between probe and the FET mounting plate, through the gunk on the back of it.

I reckon you probably have a controller there capable of about 1500W minimum, the data sheet shows max for Each FET of 84 amps..OK, and you have what looks like a 12 FET controller. So three phases, so 4 FET's per phase, two positive, and two on the negative going side.
You do not get twice the current rating when you have 2 FET's instead of one...cant remember why, but you just do not..And you can't run them at their max. But Saying all of that, if you can't get 30 amps through them I would be surprised. Likely more..but that then depends on the thickness of the tracks on the back of the board and the current they can take.
So take it easy the first time out with a shunt mod and see what the Max current you draw is like. If you have a Cycle Analyst, you can connect it too the throttle line to the controller and use that as a current limit too.

Have you tried any solvents on that gunk it is filled with? maybe there is something you can wash the board with ?

 

[SamTexas]

Good job cleaning that area up.

As NeilP said, the bicycle needs to be under load (probably accelerating hard from stop) to determine the actual max current. And to see that you would need some sort of watt/amp meter. Cycle Analyst (CA) is definitely the best one out there.

With the addition of the CA, you'd now have 3 separate components with current controlling ability and the one with the lowest capability will determine the whole system max current. Obviously, changing the max current on the CA is easiest since it's only a software parameter.

I'd go ahead and add a little solder to the shunts. I wouldn't worry too much if a little too much is added knowing that I still have the BMS and the CA to limit the overall max.

Isn't it wonderful to have one or two spare controllers? Have fun experimenting!

 

[catchinem]

I will try this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmq2FCnqs because I have one of these...http://www.sperryinstruments.com/documents/products/dm-4400a.pdf. Since my brakes have no fluid in them yet I'll just face the bike into the wall . I'll try it before I add solder to the shunt and then add some solder and try it again. It will be this evening before I get a chance to try it. This is going to be fun. I'm off work tomorrow and may get around to opening up the other motor that has the noise in it.

 

[SamTexas]

Bad idea catchinem. Your multi meter can only handle 10A max and only for a very short period, 60 sec max. You'd most likely destroy it, I know I have destroyed many of mine.

Are you familiar with this device?

If so, you could install it inline on either the + or - connection between the battery and the controller, then you can accurately read the current using your voltmeter in millivolt mode.

 

[catchinem]

Thanks, that's why I throw my plans out to y'all first to correct me. I was thinking that meter of mine read in 10's up to 99. Duh!

 

[catchinem]

The free motor arrived yesterday. This is the one that he sent to replace the noisey one. Well, I hooked it up and it tries to run it reverse, but only moves about an inch. It is connected to the same controller that operates the other two motors. Should I try a different combo of the phase wires or the hall wires first? Maybe I should open up both of the hubs and compare the wiring. I have to open up the noisey one anyway. Other than that, I have finished building the bike except for my battery selection.Still pondering what type of battery to mount in the triangle I added a little bit of solder to the shunts, new hydraulic brake lines, bled the brakes, new shifter cables, new brake pads, new tires and thick slime tubes, new seat, handlebars, torque plates, kickstand plates, new rear rotor. She's looking good.

 

[parabellum]

Maybe I should open up both of the hubs and compare the wiring.

If you use right technique to open them, it will be quicker then trying 36 hall/phase combinations. I open Mxus DD hub in 3 minutes and close even faster. Marking cover position is very important for quick assembly.

 

[NeilP]

Should I try a different combo of the phase wires or the hall wires first? .

Yes..it is quick and easy. As long you have individual plugs on each hall wire, and each phase wire, swapping them is qucik

use this chart, and go through the combos

Can't remember who made it, but someone here on the forum.
Just set the halls as per the colour code on the top, and run through each phase combination of the phases.

Most won't work but you will eventually find a setting that works well in one direction. Ideally use a low amperage fuse in the power line..5 amps or so..so if you get it wrong and open the throttle too much then the fuse will blow before anything in the controller gets damaged.

If you can use your 10 amp Digital meter then that is a good idea to. If the motor runs in either direction and the current goes up 4-5 6 amps. then under no load this is too much and the combo is wrong. Just keep swapping, each hall combo....the six phases..then if that is not good the next hall combo...then the phases again. till you find the next one..it does not take long

 

[SamTexas]

The free motor arrived yesterday. This is the one that he sent to replace the noisey one. Well, I hooked it up and it tries to run it reverse, but only moves about an inch. It is connected to the same controller that operates the other two motors.

That's too bad. Hope you can fix it.

Still pondering what type of battery to mount in the triangle...

I thought you have already decided on cell_man's A123.

 

[e-biker]

I have the same pioneerbike motor and I connected a lyen 12 fet 72v 45a controller to it and I am getting 39 mph on flat land a lot more going down georgia hills the wiring combo I came up with is hall- b-b y-g g-y and the same with the phase wires, Thanks to the chart I found on this thread.




































i

 

[SamTexas]

I have the same pioneerbike motor and I connected a lyen 12 fet 72v 45a controller to it and I am getting 39 mph on flat land

39mph is fast. What is the fully charged voltage of your battery?