beast775
100 kW
wicked battery setup...this bike will be the ultimate stealth bicycle! tough to boot.cant beat a steel frame thats well put together.and a good aesthetic.very exciting build,with power to boot. 
Peugeot - E-Speriment!!!
- Thread starter Patriot
- Start date
vanilla ice
1 MW
Headway screw cells eh. I bet the ally works fine, just make sure the washers cut thru that oxi-layer like has been said. Got me thinking about a roadbike project..
africanandy187
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2008
- Messages
- 22
Aluminium is a poor conductor?no no....aluminum is an excellent conductor of electricity, better than copper.
At some time during the 1970s or 1980s, when the cost of copper started to rise sharply, there was a brief movement to use aluminum instead of copper for household electrical wiring; this proved to be disasterous.
Though aluminum itself is an excellent conductor, its oxides are not. Copper wire can tarnish and oxidize, and still retain a good electrical connection. Where aluminum wire oxidized, connections between it and terminals became very poor, causing overheating, power loss, and even fires. Furthermore, aluminum tends to be very brittle compared to most other metals, so aluminum wiring proved subject to cracking which led to the same kinds of problems that occurred because of oxidation.
Can you solder to aluminium?I've never tried!
At some time during the 1970s or 1980s, when the cost of copper started to rise sharply, there was a brief movement to use aluminum instead of copper for household electrical wiring; this proved to be disasterous.
Though aluminum itself is an excellent conductor, its oxides are not. Copper wire can tarnish and oxidize, and still retain a good electrical connection. Where aluminum wire oxidized, connections between it and terminals became very poor, causing overheating, power loss, and even fires. Furthermore, aluminum tends to be very brittle compared to most other metals, so aluminum wiring proved subject to cracking which led to the same kinds of problems that occurred because of oxidation.
Can you solder to aluminium?I've never tried!
Reid Welch
1 MW
Gosh darn it, sorry Andy:
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/science/Elec/basic2.html
I have a long experience in tube electronics.
Silver is the best electrical conductor of all.
Better yet, most forms of silver "tarnish" are fully, electrically conductive, as the pure metal, itself.
In the days of high current, tube-operated equipment, heavy, pure, silver plating was spec'd over all base metals such as bronze.
Brass is one of the worst conductors (the zinc component.
Worse, copper oxide, and zinc, too, are terrible conductors of lower voltages; virtual insulators.
Nickel is so-so. Aluminum is fine, but there is that oxide problem: much worse to deal with long-term, than with even copper.
Today, for low currents and reliability, micron-thin gold plate, over a flash of copper plate, flash-plated over dreadful brass alloy, is the style.
Tin is a good conductor. Tin oxide is not nearly so deleterious as that of nickel or copper or zinc.
A good, non-oxidizing grease makes aluminum workable, "long term" as a conductor.
But this cannot be relied upon in real life.
Hence, aluminum as a copper substitute, is no virtually banned in all electrical codes: no more aluminum wiring, paste-protected junctions or not.
SILVER is the finest electrical conductor. Silver oxide is NO barrier against electrical conductivity.
This is why all the old mil-spec tube equipment, made to withstand the damp, the salt, the corrosive atmospheres,
was standard and expensive; but that was the "gold standard".
Gold is but an "indifferent" conductor of current.
That its cost is so great as to require, in the real world, thin plating over lousy nickel or brass, etc, limits it to low currents, where only its "reliability" against corrosion (if unbroken), is gold's only advantage.
Aluminum, in general, is awful. Brass, plain brass, is far worse.
These are generally true facts.
r
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/science/Elec/basic2.html
I have a long experience in tube electronics.
Silver is the best electrical conductor of all.
Better yet, most forms of silver "tarnish" are fully, electrically conductive, as the pure metal, itself.
In the days of high current, tube-operated equipment, heavy, pure, silver plating was spec'd over all base metals such as bronze.
Brass is one of the worst conductors (the zinc component.
Worse, copper oxide, and zinc, too, are terrible conductors of lower voltages; virtual insulators.
Nickel is so-so. Aluminum is fine, but there is that oxide problem: much worse to deal with long-term, than with even copper.
Today, for low currents and reliability, micron-thin gold plate, over a flash of copper plate, flash-plated over dreadful brass alloy, is the style.
Tin is a good conductor. Tin oxide is not nearly so deleterious as that of nickel or copper or zinc.
A good, non-oxidizing grease makes aluminum workable, "long term" as a conductor.
But this cannot be relied upon in real life.
Hence, aluminum as a copper substitute, is no virtually banned in all electrical codes: no more aluminum wiring, paste-protected junctions or not.
SILVER is the finest electrical conductor. Silver oxide is NO barrier against electrical conductivity.
This is why all the old mil-spec tube equipment, made to withstand the damp, the salt, the corrosive atmospheres,
was standard and expensive; but that was the "gold standard".
Gold is but an "indifferent" conductor of current.
That its cost is so great as to require, in the real world, thin plating over lousy nickel or brass, etc, limits it to low currents, where only its "reliability" against corrosion (if unbroken), is gold's only advantage.
Aluminum, in general, is awful. Brass, plain brass, is far worse.
These are generally true facts.
r
AussieJester
1 TW
africanandy187 said:
With Reid here im afraid Andy my man... according to any reference i have found on the net and what i have been told thus far aluminum bites compared to copper pal...
http://www.vt-inc.com/seminars/alumcopper.php
and yes aluminum can be soldered using the correct fluxes
Guys, you are both right and wrong. We have these facts:AussieJester said:
Aluminium (pure)
Resistivity: 0.028 ohms*mm2/m
Density: 2.7 kg/dm3
Copper
Resistivity: 0.0172 ohms*mm2/m
Density: 8.96 kg/dm3
So, if we compare two wires of equal cross-section (mm2), copper beats aluminium. But, with the same weight, you can have a 3.32 times larger cross-section of aluminium. If you do that, resistance of the aluminium wire will be 51% lower than the copper wire. So it depends on what your priorities are. If you want to squeeze in as much conductor as possible in a small space such as a motor, copper is your choice. Or silver if you can afford it. On the other hand, if weight is priority, go for aluminium. Aluminium will also be cheaper. Over-head transmission lines and high-voltage bars in switchyards are often made of aluminium for this reason.
AussieJester
1 TW
rgx said:
...answer the following question is "aluminum better conductor than copper... ? " Thats the only question being asked..Its simply not...question wasnt how much aluminum is needed to meet or exceed coppers conductivity...aluminum has only 61% of the conductivity of copper
I understand what your saying though, just wasnt what was being debated Kim
africanandy187
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2008
- Messages
- 22
That's all pretty interesting stuff really!I will hopefully graduate as an EE in July, i should really know these things! but its not something that's taught, it's just kinda like "we use copper now, thats all you have to know", this is all very useful background knowledge that seems unnescessary on the surface but it something that only comes with years of life and experience and all becomes invaluable sooner or later!
Reid Welch
1 MW
Thought: whatever you use: tinned copper stranded wire and rosin paste flux (just great, permanent low resisistance),
it is the CRIMP, the mechanical clamp, that ensures low resistance over time.
Vibration of an aluminum joint would indeed foil any aluminum oxides constantly, otherwise, trying to form,
especially when mated to dissimilar metals. This is one reason why DRY aluminum-other-metal junctions are a no-no in static (non moving service).
Stab-in electrical outlets: second rate for copper-copper connections, and horrible (FIRE RISK) in dry, aluminum-to-copper connection.
The purpose of solder in copper-to-copper joints, well made: twofold: a mechanical insurance of a tight, crimped joint.
A Western Union-type of splice is one such way. Remove oxides, invisible, from any metal.
Rosin fluxes are "active" when boiling-hot, and clean the last traces of insulating oxides from copper soldered unions.
Eighty years ago, the home radio boom was in full flower. Millions of interstage transformers of wire as fine as #40 gauge were soldered,
almost universally-so, with zinc chloride (acid) fluxes. In result, within a few years, all these transformers and other such connections tended to fail:
the fine copper would actually be eaten-apart by the acid flux.
Hence, we do not use acid bearing solders or fluxes in electrical work today.
There are, from the annals of professional radio repairmens' tech magazines (I have dozens of mags of the 20s, ranging through the 50s;
many "kinks" the pros shared with one another: how to quickly and easily snip out a bad in-line capacitor, and crimp-in and solder its replacement.
There are so many old methods of great use today, totally forgotten, because the old time radio and TV repairmen are all gone.
But I remember and I use their "kinks and tips" whenever possible.
Aluminum cannot be "soldered". Vibration is the worst enemy, aside from cold joints, of any electrical connection which must be relied upon.
Soldered copper is the standard of excellence. A crimp-only connection is grand, if made well, and billions of them are made every day.
But, get them wet, and over a long time, eventually, resistance develops. If they can be tinned and soldered, then these joints become as good as can be.
To know how to splice is a skill very nice. :wink:
And with aluminum: to weld is just great, best of all worlds... if only battery packs of round cells did not vibrate so in service,
and possibly, just possibly, break a weld...somewhere in the pack.
it is the CRIMP, the mechanical clamp, that ensures low resistance over time.
Vibration of an aluminum joint would indeed foil any aluminum oxides constantly, otherwise, trying to form,
especially when mated to dissimilar metals. This is one reason why DRY aluminum-other-metal junctions are a no-no in static (non moving service).
Stab-in electrical outlets: second rate for copper-copper connections, and horrible (FIRE RISK) in dry, aluminum-to-copper connection.
The purpose of solder in copper-to-copper joints, well made: twofold: a mechanical insurance of a tight, crimped joint.
A Western Union-type of splice is one such way. Remove oxides, invisible, from any metal.
Rosin fluxes are "active" when boiling-hot, and clean the last traces of insulating oxides from copper soldered unions.
Eighty years ago, the home radio boom was in full flower. Millions of interstage transformers of wire as fine as #40 gauge were soldered,
almost universally-so, with zinc chloride (acid) fluxes. In result, within a few years, all these transformers and other such connections tended to fail:
the fine copper would actually be eaten-apart by the acid flux.
Hence, we do not use acid bearing solders or fluxes in electrical work today.
There are, from the annals of professional radio repairmens' tech magazines (I have dozens of mags of the 20s, ranging through the 50s;
many "kinks" the pros shared with one another: how to quickly and easily snip out a bad in-line capacitor, and crimp-in and solder its replacement.
There are so many old methods of great use today, totally forgotten, because the old time radio and TV repairmen are all gone.
But I remember and I use their "kinks and tips" whenever possible.
Aluminum cannot be "soldered". Vibration is the worst enemy, aside from cold joints, of any electrical connection which must be relied upon.
Soldered copper is the standard of excellence. A crimp-only connection is grand, if made well, and billions of them are made every day.
But, get them wet, and over a long time, eventually, resistance develops. If they can be tinned and soldered, then these joints become as good as can be.
To know how to splice is a skill very nice. :wink:
And with aluminum: to weld is just great, best of all worlds... if only battery packs of round cells did not vibrate so in service,
and possibly, just possibly, break a weld...somewhere in the pack.
AussieJester
1 TW
Reid Welch said:
I beg to differ Mr Reidy SIR hehee using aluminum soldering flux and aluminum soldering rod it can indeed be soldered my friend
Durafix make a product that requires no flux at all You can also solder copper to aluminium Reid... Did you know ali can also be arc welded <--little know fact i hear ...Me
marty
10 MW
Patriot said:VRdublove said:
They are Headway 38120S cells. 3.2v/10ah each.
Total: 48v/20ah
I was planning on copper connectors, but went with aluminum for several reasons.
1. It was the most available at the local hardware store.
2. It was very cheap ($7.50).
3. It is soft and very easy to work with.
4. And of course, I figure I saved about 1/2 pound.
Interesting thoughts or aluminum verse copper for battery connectors. My vote is for copper. Just based on feelings not science.
Patriot wrote - "1. It was the most available at the local hardware store."
Wish you all would look at the big picture instead of the little store in the little town / city where you at. Look in the phone book under metal. Or go to a local sheet metal fabrication shop and have them cut some copper in strips with their shear.
http://www.mcmaster.com has lots of copper strips in different widths and thickness. Search Copper, then Sheets, Bars, and Strips.
AussieJester
1 TW
I thought the flattend copper pipe idea was a goodun too...If you wanted to lighten it more cut the pip in two before flattening...1/2in copper pipe can be had at any hardware store big or small...
marty
10 MW
AussieJester said:
Due mind changing thoughts? My feelings regarding aluminum verse copper for battery connectors have changed. I now like aluminum. Also AussieJester's idea of flattened copper pipe have changed my feelings about using the best materials available on this planet for the job at hand. Do not buy anything. Only use what you can find in the basement, garage, shed. Grandpa's basement, garage, shed, or the neighbors trash. Better for the environment to recycle.
Patriot
10 kW
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 511
Here's some more work on the controller mount inside my box.
Basically, just cutting a hole, and walling it off for access to the underside of the mount for wires, and storage of tools, etc.
I also cut the BMS board for a 16 channel circuit.
Ok, here's a couple pics of my progress. I haven't gotten too far because I'm taking my time. I also just got an email from Kouser, saying that I won't get the rest of my resistors until March.
What the heck!!! Don't they understand this is a project of the utmost importance?
Ah well, I guess I can start doing some more soldering and wiring up of my battery, controller, motor, throttle, regen, etc. That'll keep me busy... for a little while.
Basically, just cutting a hole, and walling it off for access to the underside of the mount for wires, and storage of tools, etc.
I also cut the BMS board for a 16 channel circuit.
Ok, here's a couple pics of my progress. I haven't gotten too far because I'm taking my time. I also just got an email from Kouser, saying that I won't get the rest of my resistors until March.
What the heck!!! Don't they understand this is a project of the utmost importance?
Ah well, I guess I can start doing some more soldering and wiring up of my battery, controller, motor, throttle, regen, etc. That'll keep me busy... for a little while.
Patriot
10 kW
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 511
Battery is finally complete. The only things I need to attach to it, are the leads for the charger going to the BMS. As you can see, I have attached an inline 80a gold plated fuse holder, and I am using some 6awg battery wire to cennect to it. From the fuse holder on, I'm using regular 6awg heavy copper wire.
Also, you can see my wood controller mount. I have everything mounted to it. Contactor, 12v/3.3v/12v multi-channel DC converter, and lots of vent holes for my charger carried underneath the controller. All this will fit into my Otivia box.
Time to eat some dinner, and have another beer.
Also, you can see my wood controller mount. I have everything mounted to it. Contactor, 12v/3.3v/12v multi-channel DC converter, and lots of vent holes for my charger carried underneath the controller. All this will fit into my Otivia box.
Time to eat some dinner, and have another beer.
Reid Welch
1 MW
Stunningly beautiful work again. I appreciate the wood fabrication. Nice fillets too.
Let's go (forgive me) underwater together some day?
My bike will go faster than yours ......
....under the briny.
-----
It's really turning out very well; almost too nice to ride in ugly places or ugly weather.
Every piece of ebike art on this panel gives ideas, and inspires others to do things =their way=.
Kudos again,
r.
Let's go (forgive me) underwater together some day?
My bike will go faster than yours ......
....under the briny.
-----
It's really turning out very well; almost too nice to ride in ugly places or ugly weather.
Every piece of ebike art on this panel gives ideas, and inspires others to do things =their way=.
Kudos again,
r.
voicecoils
1 MW
That really looks fantastic. Great woodworking to fit everything neatly in that plastic rear box.
I hope you find the bike handles OK. I don't know if you've listed weights earlier in the thread but I suspect you'll be sitting around:
12kg - pedal-only bike weight
24kg - batteries, X5, kelly controller, and balance of system
So something on the order of 70% of the weight will be centered in/around/over the rear wheel.
My rigid steel frame ('red commuter') is pretty tough but I can still feel some 'give' in the rear triangle when jammin' along over 40kph. My bike's rear end only has an internal gear hub and is otherwise like a standard bike. All the action is up front on mine.
Keep us updated, I look forward to it
Patriot
10 kW
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 511
Meanwhile, I've been building a small box for my BMS.
As you can see, my box has holes on one side for air to come in, and a long slot on the other side where the leads come out, to allow heat to escape. The box will be mounted sideways on the front of the battery with the holes down, and leads coming out the top.
As you can see, my box has holes on one side for air to come in, and a long slot on the other side where the leads come out, to allow heat to escape. The box will be mounted sideways on the front of the battery with the holes down, and leads coming out the top.
Mark_A_W
100 kW
voicecoils said:
Umm...yeah....I fear it will be unrideable.
The front wheel will completely unloaded, and it will be ridiculously easy to wash out in a corner. Not to mention the wheelies on takeoff.
Be careful. Be very careful. A bike needs the weight balanced front to back, preferred is a slight forward bias - like a motorbike.
Nice workmanship though, very nice.
And what's with the signature Patriot? Faith Vigilance Service? What's that supposed to mean???
vanilla ice
1 MW
I've ridden on a similar enough roadbike with about that much cargo weight, mounted higher up too. It was rideable, but handling was lousy. Eventually I took the the child seat off and put it on a cruiser. Since the Peugeot's weight is lower down, I think it will be fine.
Patriot
10 kW
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 511
Mark_A_W said:
I have already ridden the bike, but only under pedal power. It seems to handle just fine. I had it up over 20mph on a downhill, and it seemed ok. It's going to be seeing alot of long straights when riding to work. Not alot of fast turning at 30mph. As far as wheelies go, I doubt that will be a serious problem either. This bike is a road frame, so one tends to lean forward a bit, which helps putting a little more weight on the front. Also ,the Kelly controllers are known for being a little bit gentler/smoother in acceleration than others. Either way, I will be careful.
"Fait-Vigilance-Service" is the crede of the ship I served on in the Navy.
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