Ping 2.0 Reports
- Thread starter pwbset
- Start date
www.recumbents.com
10 kW
The replacement BMS arrived from Ping yesterday. I soldered it in and the battery now appears to be charging properly.
-Warren.
-Warren.
Fire Mountain said:
I tried to buy a controller from Electro-Ride and this person, Brian Howell, (who owns Electro-ride, according to Better Business Bureau )is giving me the same run around and aggravation. This guy is giving me the same memories as Mr Lau of LiPO4 fame.
I ordered a controller from his site; after a couple of weeks (since he has already charged my card), I inquired about the status of the order. His response is that he already sent it to my address. I asked him for a tracking # but he could not provide one. A week later, I asked again as he seemed to have forgotten about the inquiry. His response is that he will send me another one and he seem to be blaming the USPS for being slow as UPS and FEDEX.
I find this quite odd as USPS takes 2 to 3 days to send merchandise from California to Arizona and that UPS takes 2 days, not weeks. I am beginning to smell something bad here as he could not provide me any documentation for shipping the item to me.
Anybody else has had any bad service from this guy?
JinbaIttai
100 W
I decided to dig this one back up to post my 2.0 experiences.
My first ping 2.0, a 36V 12ah, went about 30 or so cycles before bulging in the side of the pack appeared. The bike was still ride-able at the time, but I took it off the road and opened the battery anyway, confirming that a couple of cells were bulging.
I ended up sending the battery back to ping under warranty.
My next ping 2.0, a 48V 20ah, went about 40 cycles. One day the throttle switch wouldn't come on after plugging it in, I think due to LVC. I inspected the outside of the battery and saw a bulge.
There were some shallow dent marks in the duct tape from a less than ideal pannier mounting spot from my first 10 or so cycles.
I opened the pack up and noticed two cells bulging, with the entire group at 0.0 volts. Those dents ended up being right where the bulged cells were--maybe coincidence, maybe not. At that time the battery was out of warranty. Ping sent a complimentary replacement cell group with a single cell charger and I had to pay for shipping. I am in the process of changing out the cell group.
I intend to repair this pack. Afterwards, it will be mounted in panniers in a good spot with plenty of bubble wrap for shock absorption. I really can't say I've had a good experience with ping 2.0 packs so far and I hope my opinion will change if I manage to put a few hundred trouble-free cycles on this one repaired and well cushioned. We'll see.
My first ping 2.0, a 36V 12ah, went about 30 or so cycles before bulging in the side of the pack appeared. The bike was still ride-able at the time, but I took it off the road and opened the battery anyway, confirming that a couple of cells were bulging.
I ended up sending the battery back to ping under warranty.
My next ping 2.0, a 48V 20ah, went about 40 cycles. One day the throttle switch wouldn't come on after plugging it in, I think due to LVC. I inspected the outside of the battery and saw a bulge.
There were some shallow dent marks in the duct tape from a less than ideal pannier mounting spot from my first 10 or so cycles.
I opened the pack up and noticed two cells bulging, with the entire group at 0.0 volts. Those dents ended up being right where the bulged cells were--maybe coincidence, maybe not. At that time the battery was out of warranty. Ping sent a complimentary replacement cell group with a single cell charger and I had to pay for shipping. I am in the process of changing out the cell group.
I intend to repair this pack. Afterwards, it will be mounted in panniers in a good spot with plenty of bubble wrap for shock absorption. I really can't say I've had a good experience with ping 2.0 packs so far and I hope my opinion will change if I manage to put a few hundred trouble-free cycles on this one repaired and well cushioned. We'll see.
My Ping pack is about 1 year old now. I've only put about 50 cycles on it. And I've also had to replace cells groups twice. One when I first got the pack. It came with a bad cell. And the second time a few months later. The cell wasn't holding charge and lost capacity. It's been working fine since then, but I've notice my charged pack voltage slowly decreasing. When I first got the pack, it charged to just over 60V. It only gets up to 56V now. I've tried leaving the pack on the charger for several days, but this did not help. I checked the individual cell voltages and they range from 3.3V to 3.7V. My pack capacity still seems ok even though the pack voltage has dropped. I'm wondering if the reduced charged voltage is common among other ping packs.
The charger voltage is still over 60V. The problem is that as soon as one cell hits the charging cut off voltage, around 3.85V, the pack stops charging. And because of this, the other cells don't get a chance to get fully charged. And I've tried leaving the charge on for many days. I've also charged individual cells that are low. This works, but after a few cycles, the pack is unbalanced again. But besides this, I've notice that in general, the voltages of each cell seems to be decreasing.
dnmun
1 PW
the pack will balance after you have more charge cycles on it. try to avoid discharging more than 30-50% in the first 20-30 cycles to allow it time to balance. imo
StevenR
100 W
I have about 2300 miles and 300 charge cycles on a Ping v2. My Ping charger had too low a voltage (58.2V CV) so I set my Soniel the same. It never properly balanced. By the time I figured this out and reset it to 61 volts, it was sick and then one cell group went to 0.0 volts. Four others are at 3.3 volts. If I put a single cell charger on those cells they come up but then droop back to 3.3 over the course of several hours. I am replacing the one 0.0V bad group then will do a capacity test. I may do individual cell capacities first but I only have a 1A discharge Tenergy unit so each test will take a while. I have a total of three new cell groups and want to replace the worst existing ones. This will be my backup bike battery and will be split into two 24V 20aH packs for use in experiments like 90V screamers and great big parallel packs - Headways are on the way as soon as the boat docks.
BTW: I bought a Ping v3. It rocks at 40A continuous and I will solder my shunt to get to 60A continuous after I break it in a bit although 35A+ on a 5303 with 48V35A controller is almost enough - 60A may be overkill, except on accelleration and 5 second bursts are hardly continuous. New v2.5 BMS seems to balance effectively, if slowly. Most cells are at 3.79-3.80 volts on CV at 61.09V with a Ping 5A charger. One is at 3.74 and has come up from from 3.68 over the last few hours. I will watch it as I do laundry over the next couple hours. Everything seems to be stabilizing nicely. Time to start a Ping v3 Reports Thread...
BTW: I bought a Ping v3. It rocks at 40A continuous and I will solder my shunt to get to 60A continuous after I break it in a bit although 35A+ on a 5303 with 48V35A controller is almost enough - 60A may be overkill, except on accelleration and 5 second bursts are hardly continuous. New v2.5 BMS seems to balance effectively, if slowly. Most cells are at 3.79-3.80 volts on CV at 61.09V with a Ping 5A charger. One is at 3.74 and has come up from from 3.68 over the last few hours. I will watch it as I do laundry over the next couple hours. Everything seems to be stabilizing nicely. Time to start a Ping v3 Reports Thread...
dnmun
1 PW
3.65V is fully charged, might wanna take a volt off the charger, down to 58.8V or so.
snowranger
10 kW
With the Ping BMS, you need over 3.7 volts per cell to balance properly according to Ping.
dnmun
1 PW
i defer to ping, but 3.65V is fully charged, for all the lifepo4. but 3.7V/cell is still only 59.2V.
problem is the way there is so much variation in the individual cell voltages during balancing, so you need extra voltage to force the low voltage shunts to pull their channel up to 3.65V before it hits the high voltage limit 3.9V on any one cell and shuts down the charging FET.
the signalab BMS doesn't have the extra tuning resistors (which can be added at final test) in the resistor divider bridge which in combination with the zener establishes the balanced cell voltage on each channel. so that is why you see the variation in final cell voltages.
i was analyzing the headway BMS circuit and they have a buncha spots on the divider bridge where they can add small tuning reistors to the pcb after it is assembled and at the final inspection step to get the individual cell voltages all to the 3.65V endpoint. the signalab BMS does not have this capability. either the v1 or v2.5. the v 2.5 does have the little leds which turn on when you get to a high enuff voltage though. so you can check visually which cell is balancing first and which last, which is why he now wraps them in clear plastic. but keep the output FETs cool, not tightly wrapped up in insulation or they get too hot.
i am planning to build two 36V packs from my headway cells, and i am gonna use ping's signalab BMS for each so that should tell you how much i trust them. one will be a v1 signalab and the other with the v 2.5 signalab BMS so obviously i think they are pretty good.
also i have the 48V v1 signalab BMS that greg burned up, was able to see how it is built and the traces under the 14 pin soic, a 4011 cmos comparator, which is only used to drive the gates of the output FETs. learned alot about them recently.
i also have some irf3205 FETs that ping uses as the output FETs. bot them on ebay for next to nothing so lemme know if you need some. the charging FET i don't know, it only has to handle low voltage and power so not as much need for the low on resistance of the 3205s which are 55V and 12mohm channel resistance.
problem is the way there is so much variation in the individual cell voltages during balancing, so you need extra voltage to force the low voltage shunts to pull their channel up to 3.65V before it hits the high voltage limit 3.9V on any one cell and shuts down the charging FET.
the signalab BMS doesn't have the extra tuning resistors (which can be added at final test) in the resistor divider bridge which in combination with the zener establishes the balanced cell voltage on each channel. so that is why you see the variation in final cell voltages.
i was analyzing the headway BMS circuit and they have a buncha spots on the divider bridge where they can add small tuning reistors to the pcb after it is assembled and at the final inspection step to get the individual cell voltages all to the 3.65V endpoint. the signalab BMS does not have this capability. either the v1 or v2.5. the v 2.5 does have the little leds which turn on when you get to a high enuff voltage though. so you can check visually which cell is balancing first and which last, which is why he now wraps them in clear plastic. but keep the output FETs cool, not tightly wrapped up in insulation or they get too hot.
i am planning to build two 36V packs from my headway cells, and i am gonna use ping's signalab BMS for each so that should tell you how much i trust them. one will be a v1 signalab and the other with the v 2.5 signalab BMS so obviously i think they are pretty good.
also i have the 48V v1 signalab BMS that greg burned up, was able to see how it is built and the traces under the 14 pin soic, a 4011 cmos comparator, which is only used to drive the gates of the output FETs. learned alot about them recently.
i also have some irf3205 FETs that ping uses as the output FETs. bot them on ebay for next to nothing so lemme know if you need some. the charging FET i don't know, it only has to handle low voltage and power so not as much need for the low on resistance of the 3205s which are 55V and 12mohm channel resistance.
www.recumbents.com
10 kW
My Ping 2.0 48V/20Ah now has over 750 miles and about 50 recharges on it after a summer of commuting (BMC 600/Crystalite 40A controller). It seems to be functioning well, with no noticeable loss of power or range. I have not been easy on it, and have popped the BMS one or twice most days on over-current. It seems to be able to handle close to 40A continuous before the BMS cuts power, or about 60A instantaneous. Cruising at WOT and 30MPH, it puts out around 1500 watts (30A), and seems happy with that for an extended time.
Now that it's crappy out again (Chicago area), the bike sits in the garage.
After about a month of not riding it, I plugged in the charger and it started charging. It was recharged in less than a couple hours, but this means it discharges itself just sitting around, not good. I will need to charge it every month or so to keep it fresh for next year. As I have used it as hard as the BMS will allow, I will measure the cells individual voltage sometime this winter to ensure none are damaged.
It's time to get my faired recumbent out again, with it's underpowered motor, for the cold weather commuting.
-Warren.
Now that it's crappy out again (Chicago area), the bike sits in the garage.
After about a month of not riding it, I plugged in the charger and it started charging. It was recharged in less than a couple hours, but this means it discharges itself just sitting around, not good. I will need to charge it every month or so to keep it fresh for next year. As I have used it as hard as the BMS will allow, I will measure the cells individual voltage sometime this winter to ensure none are damaged.
It's time to get my faired recumbent out again, with it's underpowered motor, for the cold weather commuting.
-Warren.
dnmun
1 PW
warren, you can reduce the rate at which the pack discharges by disconnecting the sense wire plug from the BMS.
the BMS circuit current comes from the top of cell 4 and if you disconnect the sense wire plug, there is no way for the current to flow into the BMS. it could last a long time without self discharge that way, but if you wanna go and recharge every month, then you can plug the sense wire plug back in, but i suspect if you monitor it that you never see the voltage drop below 3.3 or so.
if you leave the BMS on for long periods between charges, that will draw down the first 4 cells and so it will be difficult to balance them right away if you wait for long periods between rechargings.
there is actually a spot on the BMS where the trace that carries the circuit current goes to 2 through holes with the trace continuing between them. this was printed onto the pcb with the expectation that one could add a small switch at that spot and cut the trace open between the legs of the switch, so the circuit current would be controlled by that switch.
something like that would allow you to leave the sense wire plug alone and just cut off the circuit current with the switch, then turn it on when you wanna use the pack again, or to charge it again. then turn it off when you leave the pack in extended storage.
the BMS circuit current comes from the top of cell 4 and if you disconnect the sense wire plug, there is no way for the current to flow into the BMS. it could last a long time without self discharge that way, but if you wanna go and recharge every month, then you can plug the sense wire plug back in, but i suspect if you monitor it that you never see the voltage drop below 3.3 or so.
if you leave the BMS on for long periods between charges, that will draw down the first 4 cells and so it will be difficult to balance them right away if you wait for long periods between rechargings.
there is actually a spot on the BMS where the trace that carries the circuit current goes to 2 through holes with the trace continuing between them. this was printed onto the pcb with the expectation that one could add a small switch at that spot and cut the trace open between the legs of the switch, so the circuit current would be controlled by that switch.
something like that would allow you to leave the sense wire plug alone and just cut off the circuit current with the switch, then turn it on when you wanna use the pack again, or to charge it again. then turn it off when you leave the pack in extended storage.
JinbaIttai
100 W
dnmun said:
What do you consider a long time? A few days? I have been plagued with problems on my ping 2.0 and I now suspect this might be one of them.
A few days ago I rode fully charged home and then let it sit for 3 days, 1/2 discharged. This morning the battery was too dead to use. I had assumed that since it is a split pack, disconnecting the packs from each other would be enough. I wonder if ping's cheap discharging BMS is the source of my current problem. I'm finding it harder and harder to understand why anyone would recommend a battery made by ping.
EDIT: I should clarify. When I got home, it was partially discharged and it sat that way for 2-3 days.
Russell
1 MW
Looks like you have another problem 
I last used my LiFePO4 pack two days ago and it's presently reading 55.78V.
-R
I last used my LiFePO4 pack two days ago and it's presently reading 55.78V.
-R
dnmun
1 PW
as i recall the resistor was about 100k so i would guess .1mA. but it should last for several months without discharging.
www.recumbents.com
10 kW
Hi dnum,
Cool, thanks I'll take a look at that.
Unfortunately we are still paving (paying?) the way for decent high power batteries for the masses. While the Ping batteries are inexpensive and are better than his competitors products, they are far from plug-n-play. It's still like we are ordering the LiFeP04 experimenters kit every time we buy a battery.
-Warren.
Cool, thanks I'll take a look at that.
Unfortunately we are still paving (paying?) the way for decent high power batteries for the masses. While the Ping batteries are inexpensive and are better than his competitors products, they are far from plug-n-play. It's still like we are ordering the LiFeP04 experimenters kit every time we buy a battery.
-Warren.
snowranger
10 kW
JinbaIttai said:
Bummer, I thought you had fixed your problem with the jumper. You better just keep the battery on the charger all the time.
nicobie
100 MW
JinbaIttai said:
dnmun
1 PW
i just replaced another single 10Ah pouch on brandon's battery. it was #14 so i had to spread the pack open like a book to reach into the the space where #14 resides. the biggest problem is getting the old tabs to come free since it takes 2 soldering irons to melt enuff solder.
but finally got it hot enuff that i could push the tab up out of the connector pcb, then straighten out the bend on the end and pull it back down through the slot. actually only took about 30 minutes to take the old one out and put a new one in.
the end cells are so much easier to work on.
the technique of cutting out the section of pcb with the bad cells is such an improvement.
greg got ping to solder the new pouches into a short 1/2 joint of pcb section and then soldered it all in place without too much hassle.
maybe it would be good to document that process so people would have the thread to refer to when they get to where they need to replace pouches.
maybe be able to identify which cell is bad, then cut out that seciton of pcb, then unsolder the individual pouches and test them each for capacity and then only have to order a replacement for the bad pouch rather than all three or four pouches for that cell.
but finally got it hot enuff that i could push the tab up out of the connector pcb, then straighten out the bend on the end and pull it back down through the slot. actually only took about 30 minutes to take the old one out and put a new one in.
the end cells are so much easier to work on.
the technique of cutting out the section of pcb with the bad cells is such an improvement.
greg got ping to solder the new pouches into a short 1/2 joint of pcb section and then soldered it all in place without too much hassle.
maybe it would be good to document that process so people would have the thread to refer to when they get to where they need to replace pouches.
maybe be able to identify which cell is bad, then cut out that seciton of pcb, then unsolder the individual pouches and test them each for capacity and then only have to order a replacement for the bad pouch rather than all three or four pouches for that cell.
docnjoj
1 GW
Just in case we forget, here is a fine treatise on soldering pouches. Biketrials made the .pdf and it is in the archives somewhere.
otherDoc
Its here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6053&p=90292#p90292
otherDoc
Its here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6053&p=90292#p90292
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