Possibly considering upgrading one of my bike's controllers

[BiggKidd]

This is the controller I'm considering up grading to is a ND7235 but I have many questions first. I would be replacing the factory 28 amp controller with this 35 amp controller. Not a huge jump but should make a decent power gain I would think. My bike has two controllers though since it has two 1,000W motors. I don't see much need to change the front controller though. Will this work or am I opening a huge can of worms here? Would other changes be mandatory or is just changing this all I would need to do? Would my M5 display still work? I have 1,000W geared hub motors is this compatable? There are likely other questions I should ask but I don't know what they are as I am new to E-bikes! I'm guessing I will have to adapt some if not all of the wiring / plugs... What kind of power gain should I expect?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166874404634?

This is the bike I have.

Ridstar E26PRO 48V 2000W 26''Fat Tire Electric Bike 23Ah Removable Battery eBike | eBay

 

[Chalo]

I would worry about the battery. In my observation, those are usually built as marginally as possible to do the job the manufacturer intended.

You could get much better performance from the same motor system and stock power levels if you used a real bike, or at least real bike rims and tires. Starting with a fat slug you'd never want to pedal yourself sharply increases the power necessary to run.

EDIT:
Okay, now I see that your bike originally came with two motors. So there's probably enough headroom in the battery pack to increase one of the two by 25%, which is only 12.5% overall if the front motor controller is also rated 28A. But your power increase will only be one-eighth.

I recently swapped a controller on one of my bikes from 48V x 22A to 48V x 26A, which is nominally 18% more power. I think I can feel it? It's not that big a difference. I don't know that I'd bother to do that swap for the power increase alone.

 

[neptronix]

If you were to upgrade part of the system, don't expect the existing electronics to work with the new controller at all.
You'll end up with 2 throttles and 2 screens etc.

Alternative would be to run a dual motor controller instead, like a VESC. This way you can have one throttle easily; it's designed to work that way.

 

[BiggKidd]

Yes I currently have two 28 amp controllers. The front doesn't really need any extra power at this time. Having to use dual throttles and screens isn't a total deal breaker. As long as this controller does allow for regen braking which is another reason I'm looking at upgrading. I haven't been able to figure out for sure if this one even works for regen though, does anyone know?

 

[neptronix]

If you have geared motors, it's very unlikely that they're designed for regen. Geared motors typically have freewheels in them.

 

[BiggKidd]

If you have geared motors, it's very unlikely that they're designed for regen. Geared motors typically have freewheels in them.

Yes they are geared and welding the rear motor's freewheel is the plan... I like the geared motors for the type of riding I do. 99% of the time I am in rear motor only mode. The only time I flick on the front motor is on large hills, muddy conditions and or dog threats.

 

[neptronix]

You can do that, but beware that most geared motors aren't tolerant to regen forces even if the clutch is fixed.
ebikes.ca found this out the hard way when offering locked clutch motors.. some work.. some die in fairly short order.

What make/model is your rear hub motor?

 

[BiggKidd]

You can do that, but beware that most geared motors aren't tolerant to regen forces even if the clutch is fixed.
ebikes.ca found this out the hard way when offering locked clutch motors.. some work.. some die in fairly short order.

What make/model is your rear hub motor?

I am not sure other than it's supposed to be a 1,000W motor, a link to my exact bike is in the first post. I have the dual motor bike with the 23AH battery.

 

[hillslayer@]

I am pretty sure those controllers work together try unplugging the rear controller from the battery and see if the front still works. If you want Regen consider replacing the whole rear wheel with a 1500 watt direct drive hub. You also need to see what your battery BMS is rated at for continuous amp draw.

 

[hillslayer@]

Oh forgot to mention grin has a YouTube on gluing your clutch to the motor so your woodruff key won't shear, probably mandatory for a geared hub with Regen.

 

[BiggKidd]

I am pretty sure those controllers work together try unplugging the rear controller from the battery and see if the front still works. If you want Regen consider replacing the whole rear wheel with a 1500 watt direct drive hub. You also need to see what your battery BMS is rated at for continuous amp draw.

I know I can cut the front motor on and off it has a switch, but I will have to see if the front can work with the rear disconnected. I doubt it though as I suspect the throttle, display and all get their power from the rear motor controller and just Y split to the front from there.
I have been considering just that. My fear there though is most of my riding is under 20mph in a very hilly area, DD motors don't much like that to my understanding.

 

[BiggKidd]

Oh forgot to mention grin has a YouTube on gluing your clutch to the motor so your woodruff key won't shear, probably mandatory for a geared hub with Regen.

Yep Loctite 648 if memory serves.

 

[hillslayer@]

I know I can cut the front motor on and off it has a switch, but I will have to see if the front can work with the rear disconnected. I doubt it though as I suspect the throttle, display and all get their power from the rear motor controller and just Y split to the front from there.
I have been considering just that. My fear there though is most of my riding is under 20mph in a very hilly area, DD motors don't much like that to my understanding.

The front hub should be able to help pull the DD hub up to what it likes which would be 20 mph plus.

 

[E-HP]

I have been considering just that. My fear there though is most of my riding is under 20mph in a very hilly area, DD motors don't much like that to my understanding.

You have the option of adding 10cc of Statorade to a DD motor to increase cooling, which will make it easily outperform a geared motor on steep hills. Unless you fill the geared motor with fluid, and deal with the leaking, there is no cooling option.
20mph is the perfect speed for climbing on my bike. At 30mph I’d pull 5kW+ at 30mph up my test hill (17%-20%) which means more heat, but 20mph keeps the heat in check. 1500W DD as suggested above; and you get your regen too.

 

[amberwolf]

Keep in mind that your battery was designed around the power levels of the factory system.

Any increase in load (current, amps) will probably cause more voltage sag (less total volts), so you may not actually get any more power (watts) out of the system. Depends on the actual battery quality and design.

Also, the BMS in the battery may have a limit low enough to cause shutdowns if the current drawn is higher than it's limit.

 

[BiggKidd]

You have the option of adding 10cc of Statorade to a DD motor to increase cooling, which will make it easily outperform a geared motor on steep hills. Unless you fill the geared motor with fluid, and deal with the leaking, there is no cooling option.
20mph is the perfect speed for climbing on my bike. At 30mph I’d pull 7kW+ at 30mph up my test hill (17%-20%) which means more heat, but 20mph keeps the heat in check. 1500W DD as suggested above; and you get your regen too.

I was wondering if spreading a little directly on the magnets wouldn't be beneficial on my geared motor?

 

[BiggKidd]

Keep in mind that your battery was designed around the power levels of the factory system.

Any increase in load (current, amps) will probably cause more voltage sag (less total volts), so you may not actually get any more power (watts) out of the system. Depends on the actual battery quality and design.

Also, the BMS in the battery may have a limit low enough to cause shutdowns if the current drawn is higher than it's limit.

99% of the time I don't use the power I have now. My battery has a 60 amp BMS I believe, not 100% sure. I do know it is UL Listed and designed for the 2) 28 amp controllers the bike currently has. This is only a 35 amp controller I only want to change the one rear controller and 97% of the time I am rear motor only. Occasionally I like everyone get a wild hair and just want to GOoooo! There are also all the dogs and a little more speed would be handy. Where I live most every farm and homestead has a pack of LGD's... some of them out weigh me and can flat out run! Messing with 100-250lbs dogs while on a bike isn't my idea of fun.

 

[E-HP]

I was wondering if spreading a little directly on the magnets wouldn't be beneficial on my geared motor?

Not at all. The stator heat needs to reach the hub body in order to radiate the heat out of the motor.

 

[BiggKidd]

Looks like I'm going to back off on this idea for the time being for a couple reasons. One I need to learn what can work with what but I think having a second bike first before I go messing with or messing up the one I depend on is a better idea. The only way I know to learn is to try things and see what happens since I can't locate any useful info.

The second reason is I clean forgot I'm only running my current controllers at about 60% IE: power assist level is on 3 of 5 NOT the PAS this is a different setting. Plus the base amps are turned down to 12 from 20. In other words the bike is still on the easy ride settings that it came with. I have turned both these up and then back down in the past. With the amps up I don't feel a lot of change but with the power level 1-5 on 5 the rear tire spins out anytime I'm in less than perfect conditions even in PAS 1 no throttle. With the throttle it's a bit twitchy and will take some getting use to. This is not a good option for riding in sloppy conditions which is why I turned it back down to start with. I'll try and remember to turn things back up once the weather and conditions are better. Also I never tried it with both the settings mentioned above maxed out at the same time, so I need to be sure and try that before I go making other changes.

 

[E-HP]

With the throttle it's a bit twitchy and will take some getting use to. This is not a good option for riding in sloppy conditions which is why I turned it back down to start with.

As you add power, or increase voltage, the throttle will only get twitchier, until you need to use some type of throttle ramping control. You could tune your throttle to eliminate any dead zones on the lower and upper end, so you utilize the full physical range/twist for modulating throttle. TommyCat’s article below has info on performing those mods (about halfway down the page).

Guide to Hall Sensor Throttle operation, testing, and modification. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

***** 8-16-2018 Welcome to the Hall Sensor Throttle Thread! If there is something you'd like to add, correct, needs better explanation, or have a question about... feel free to Private Message me. Better yet, open a new thread in the "Trouble Shooting...

electricbike.com

Frequently the controller’s label has the valid throttle voltage range that the controller uses (“speed set” in this example).That info may be helpful in fine tuning the throttle’s voltage range.

 

[amberwolf]

With the amps up I don't feel a lot of change but with the power level 1-5 on 5 the rear tire spins out anytime I'm in less than perfect conditions even in PAS 1 no throttle. With the throttle it's a bit twitchy and will take some getting use to. This is not a good option for riding in sloppy conditions which is why I turned it back down to start with.

I'd recommend trying out something like the Cycle Analyst that can take your PAS input and convert it to an actual throttle signal, so that you have control over the motor power, instead of just having the on-at-full-power (of whatever your assist level is set to) if you pedal *at all*, or having to use the throttle to control the power.

Done this way, you don't connect the PAS sesnor to the controller at all, only to the CA, and you don'tuse the controller's PAS levels, just the CA settings. Set the controller for max output that you want to have, period, and use the CA to modulate that.

I use the CAv3 to do this for the SB Cruiser trike, using just the cadence PAS sensor. (it can be even more effective with the torquePAS type sensors, but that takes more tuning, etc., and each one of those sensors works in a different way than the others, so you have to pick the one that works the way you need your system to respond to for your needs...and they're expensive, while cadence sensors are a dime a dozen and can even be DIY easily. )

 

[E-HP]

I'd recommend trying out something like the Cycle Analyst that can take your PAS input and convert it to an actual throttle signal, so that you have control over the motor power, instead of just having the on-at-full-power (of whatever your assist level is set to) if you pedal *at all*, or having to use the throttle to control the power.

You were typing while I was typing, but I was typing in my FAQ, since I finally decided I didn't want to retype stuff again (I rarely use my laptop/keyboard anymore, so iPad typing is a pain). Anyway, I added a note to the Controller and Controller Resources section with some explanations regarding throttle control modes, and also a note in italics regarding the Cycle Analyst. As with anything in the FAQ, it's a work in progress and open to comments and corrections.

DIY Newb FAQ?

I think I've read through all of the stickies in the ebike forums, which provide great guidance. Yet, I see a lot a new folks getting into ebikes and posting questions that are not in the stickies, or are embedded somewhere among the existing stickies. Another observation is there are...

endless-sphere.com

PS. do you know how to create a hyperlink that goes to a particular line in a page? i remember a long time ago doing stuff in html and it was pretty easy but i think you had to embed some markers.

 

[amberwolf]

(I rarely use my laptop/keyboard anymore, so iPad typing is a pain

There are quite a few BT key baords that will work with those. I found a decent 84-key for a dollar at goodwill a few years ago for my brother to use with his ipad, and when he didn't like the feel of it I found an actual Apple imac-type BT 104key that feels pretty natural. Around the same time I found a logitech 104key with trackpad for about the same$$ that I use myself when I need to type on antyhing that doesn't have an actual keyboard. It has shallower keypress than I'd like but I couldn't beat the price and it will never see much use, so...

PS. do you know how to create a hyperlink that goes to a particular line in a page? i remember a long time ago doing stuff in html and it was pretty easy but i think you had to embed some markers.

I knew how to do that on a regular html page (if i had access to edit the page to add "markers"), and at one time I even got it to work on phpbb rendered pages but ATM don't remember what I did. But not on a xenforo pages. There's probably a way, but I don't know what it is.

The closest most helpful thing I found in my oneminute google just now is htis

How to link to specific line of text in page, using only URL?

I am curious if there is a way to use only a URL to send someone to a specific line at a given page. Citebite does this, however it links to a cached page instead of the actual live page. http://ci...

stackoverflow.com

which covers things I remember tyrying (that ddn't work) and some I didn't. (that I don't know if they would).

 

[E-HP]

There are quite a few BT key baords that will work with those. I found a decent 84-key for a dollar at goodwill a few years ago for my brother to use with his ipad, and when he didn't like the feel of it I found an actual Apple imac-type BT 104key that feels pretty natural. Around the same time I found a logitech 104key with trackpad for about the same$$ that I use myself when I need to type on antyhing that doesn't have an actual keyboard. It has shallower keypress than I'd like but I couldn't beat the price and it will never see much use, so...

I think I'm sort of tired of typing in general. Been doing it for over 50 years when I think about it. I remember going to summer school one year, and I took typing, learning on an old manual typewriter, lol. Got pretty fast at it. That was recommended if you were going to pursue technical or engineering disciplines in the future, since the colleges had computers and those keypunch typewriters to type your programs onto punch cards for the computer's punch card reader. Been typing ever since, just on different kinds of keyboards, and for stuff like emails.
I'm not really sick of typing, but don't really love retyping things, so I'm trying to solve that by storing links to stuff that's already been typed.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I think I'm sort of tired of typing in general.

Try using the voice recognition dictation feature. To program your controller.

Then hopefully share the entertaining story of what the auto-correct came up with when you went for a ride.