Potting Batteries, Thoughts and Experiments

[Bartimaeus]

Lol, I was trying to figure out why you were charging $9 for XT60's and CAD models and not offering CAD for the Anderson version. These packs look really good, keep up the good work!

 

[Bartimaeus]

I noticed that your Watt-hours rating on the store page is based on the capacity at a 20A discharge rate, but the pack rating is only 15A peak (I'm assuming that this is limited by the FET ratings on the BMS?). Is this so you can get the rating below 100Wh? You should get more capacity from the cells if you're discharging them at a lower rate.

 

[Danny Mayes]

Justin you are a fkng legend. This is an outstanding product and a big leap forward for lithium batteries. Not just for ebikes but for so many aplications. I have been waiting for potted lithium batteries for a long time and you have done it with stunning flair. Kudos to you and your team.

These are perfect for my portable radio and a bunch of other uses I need. I have just ordered 2. Cant wait to get them!

Dan

 

[zabazoom]

So I just received my second order of packs. Visually they look great and I love the form factor. Funny story about the first order I started out Ordering a charger and a single pack at the end of Feb and had em sent Canada post to Chicago Still haven't seen em.

Shipment Activity Location Date & Time With Partner

March 17, 2017, 10:57 am In Transit to Destination
The package is delayed and will not be delivered by the expected delivery date. An updated delivery date will be provided when available. The item is currently in transit to the destination as of March 17, 2017 at 10:57 am.

In Transit to Destination March 17, 2017 10:57 am
Arrived at USPS Facility RICHMOND, CA 94804 March 16, 2017 10:57 am
Inbound Out of Customs March 5, 2017 2:26 pm
Processed Through Facility ISC SAN FRANCISCO (USPS) March 5, 2017 1:25 pm
Inbound Into Customs
Processed Through Facility ISC SAN FRANCISCO (USPS) March 3, 2017 8:09 pm
Processed Through Facility VANCOUVER, CANADA March 2, 2017 9:31 pm
Origin Post is Preparing Shipment
Processed Through Facility VANCOUVER, CANADA March 2, 2017 5:53 pm
Acceptance CANADA March 2, 2017 3:36 pm

So Moral of story is ship Fed Ex. the second order showed up in about 5 days.
Ja

 

[justin_le]

Justin you are a fkng legend. This is an outstanding product and a big leap forward for lithium batteries. Not just for ebikes but for so many aplications. I have been waiting for potted lithium batteries for a long time and you have done it with stunning flair. Kudos to you and your team.

Sweet, thanks for the encouragement and hope that they live up to your expectations! Nice to see them being used for random things outside of just powering the ebike, since this versatility is what we had in mind. My favorite extra application so far is this guy, 3 series LiGo connector to an AC plug for portable 110V power when travelling:


We're getting pretty close to having an initial android app interface ready for the bluetooth connection and once that is ripe for 3rd party testing we'll post links and details here.

Shipment Activity Location Date & Time With Partner
March 17, 2017, 10:57 am In Transit to Destination
The package is delayed and will not be delivered by the expected delivery date. An updated delivery date will be provided when available. The item is currently in transit to the destination as of March 17, 2017 at 10:57 am.

Crazy, I think that perhaps USPS is still figuring out what it can and can't ship in terms of lithium batteries and doesn't realize that this is completely above board and in line with the most recent IATA lithium shipping rules. Will follow up over email on how to resolve.

 

[liveforphysics]

I make a cable with the female wall outlet plug for the DC charge port on my Zero (also 100-116vdc range) and I use it at least weekly. Incredibly handy to power wall devices on the go with no bulky inverters.

 

[okashira]

I make a cable with the female wall outlet plug for the DC charge port on my Zero (also 100-116vdc range) and I use it at least weekly. Incredibly handy to power wall devices on the go with no bulky inverters.

Its amazing how many things run great on 110DC

 

[jonescg]

A very, very cool innovation Justin! Well done!

 

[Bruno (YouTube)]

Here is a video of Justin demonstrating how to connect 3x 36v LiGo batteries together (in series) to get 108vdc and charge his laptop =]

LiGo • World's most versatile battery = airplane friendly, ebike battery, power bank, power inverter, electric skateboard battery...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z-ivOZoi00

 

[justin_le]

Here is a video of Justin demonstrating how to connect 3x 36v LiGo batteries together (in series) to get 108vdc and charge his laptop
(YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z-ivOZoi00

Hey Thanks Bruno, I somehow missed seeing you post this! It was good times to meet up in Taipei and share these things firsthand. I'm going on a sailing/camping trip this weekend and guess what I'm bringing? 3 LiGo's of course.

I should clarify that while it's possible to connect 3+ LiGo's in series for doing things like running low power 110V equipment, we don't recommend running higher power EV's etc. with more than 2 series packs at 72V. The reason is that at 72V we're still in the safe protection zone for the BMS cutoff mosfets, but with a 110V or higher setup we can't guarantee that. Say you accidentally plug a single 36V LiGo in parallel with a 3 series 110V pack, that is likely to blow the overcharge cutoff mosfet and then the onboard BMS fuse which is not replaceable. While the same situation into a 72V pack it'd be fine.

 

[Danny Mayes]

I finally have my Ligo in hand


For a battery that Cathay Pacific allows 26 of in hand luggage it sure was hard to get into Western Australia. Apparently we are Ligo phobic over here. Not the first time we are a little backward in moving forward.

This is a direct quote from my friend who received them in Melbourne for me, because Grin could not send them directly to WA (wtf?).

"Hey,

Not having much luck with sending the batteries.

AusPost, CouriersPlease, TNT wont touch it, because they are batteries NOT inside a product.

I just called PackNSend who said.... maybe... but theyd have to see the MSDS.
I asked him who else can courier them, and he said, nobody wants to touch them!" (wtf again?)


Anyways,we finally got them here and the effort was worth every calorie. I love these batteries.

I love everything about them. I don't want to let them out of my sight I like them so much. I like just sitting there watching the green led blink or switching them on and off and watching the leds run. I like smelling them. I like touching them. My wife is concerned for my inordinate affection to these little objects.

Let the Ligo love affair continue xx

 

[Punx0r]

Probably not much use to you now, but I would argue they are not "batteries not inside a product" as the LiGO is a finished commercial product/domestic device: A product that contains a battery (it's a casing with a battery inside, a BMS, lights etc) no different to a USB power bank for charging up your phone.

I think the shipping companies are wary of naked cells with exposed terminals and no protection.

 

[Ron Paul's Blimp]

This is amazing. If you make something like a 1x7 with 15A cells, I'd buy 4 to make a 14s2p seat bag pack without even looking at the price.

 

[Danny Mayes]

Probably not much use to you now, but I would argue they are not "batteries not inside a product" as the LiGO is a finished commercial product/domestic device: A product that contains a battery (it's a casing with a battery inside, a BMS, lights etc) no different to a USB power bank for charging up your phone.

I think the shipping companies are wary of naked cells with exposed terminals and no protection.

Hey Punx0r, yeah we tried that! Trust me, we tried everything. They just asked for the MSDS and made their own conclusions. Anyways, it doesn't matter now, I got em and apparently it's not a problem for the rest of the world

 

[justin_le]

I finally have my Ligo in hand


AusPost, CouriersPlease, TNT wont touch it, because they are batteries NOT inside a product.

Yeah, at the time we started developing the LiGo batteries the regulations were pretty clear allowing up to 20pcs of <100 Wh battery packs to be shipped without going as dangerous goods. In April of 2016 the rules got adjusted down to just 2 batteries, and since January 2017 most of the couriers (like Fedex, UPS) have an internal policy that they will not accept any lithium battery only shipment without it going as Class 9 Dangerous Goods cargo.

However, there is another category of batteries packed with equipment (not even packed in equipment) which they are happy to ship, and so lately we've been including a cosmetic defect ebike light, DC-DC converter, or other small items that can be powered off the LiGo battery. If they see that we are shipping a bike light with a couple spare battery packs all <100 Wh, then that is no problem. But without the light in there and just batteries only it has to go as Dangerous Goods (with the $60 DG surcharge, packed in vermiculite, and all that).

So we've been learning how to navigate this too, what an adventure. Anyways glad to see that you got yours in the end and that hopefully the next set will land there more easily, packed with equipment and all

FWIW we're out of stock of LiGo's at the moment since we fully sold out our first 500 pieces production run , but there's another 1000 pcs of cells and BMS boards pretty far in the pipeline and ideally within 1-2 weeks we'll be back in business assembling them.

 

[justin_le]

Probably not much use to you now, but I would argue they are not "batteries not inside a product" as the LiGO is a finished commercial product/domestic device: A product that contains a battery (it's a casing with a battery inside, a BMS, lights etc)

This is something else we considered, which is calling the LiGo itself a light product with an integrated pack, a light which happens to have a pretty high current charging/discharing port for the internal battery. With the strip of 5 LED RGB lights it actually makes a fine flashlight or moodlight (depending on the colour balance) so it's completely honest that it can be used in that capacity.

 

[Danny Mayes]

most of the couriers (like Fedex, UPS) have an internal policy that they will not accept any lithium battery only shipment without it going as Class 9 Dangerous Goods cargo.

Yeah, that's what happened, despite our best efforts...

However, there is another category of batteries packed with equipment (not even packed in equipment) which they are happy to ship...

The irony :lol:

FWIW we're out of stock of LiGo's at the moment since we fully sold out our first 500 pieces production run

Wow! Go u guys. Great news. Congrats

D

 

[DVDRW]

Wow, perfect battery!
justin_le, what is BMS mosfet voltage limit? How many I can put LiGos in series?
BMS-es in series are always tricky subject.

Many household appliances work even with my offgrid 52V DC battery: TV, chargers, oscilloscope, LCD monitors etc
With 110V DC all brushed powertools also works even better than AC.

 

[justin_le]

Wow, perfect battery!
justin_le, what is BMS mosfet voltage limit? How many I can put LiGos in series?
BMS-es in series are always tricky subject.

We designed it to be safe stacking in 2 series, in that if you have two LiGos series connected for 72V and fully charged, and then hook this in parallel with a single LiGo battery that isn't series connected, it won't damage anything. This is demonstrated in the LiGo intro video. If you did the same with a 3 series LiGo pack, ie hooked up a 110V LiGo arrangement in parallel with a 36V LiGo, then you'll fry the BMS protection mosfets, blow an internal fuse, and basically brick the device.

Now if you don't do that and are careful to keep the 3 series 108V nominal LiGo arrangement away from being paralleled with a single LiGo, then you won't really have any problems, even if you discharge them to the point that one of the packs in the series arrangement trips. There is a pass diode across each BMS board so that inductive current can continue to flow across the tripped BMS without exposing it to negative voltages that are otherwise prone to causing chip damage. You just want to be careful not to have sustained current draw after one of the BMS's has shut off.

So if you have your power tools hooked up to a 108 V 3 series LiGo assembly and run it down until one of the packs is flat and turned off, then you'll have 72V left from the two packs that haven't been totally drained yet. If you keep using the power tools at 72V, the current will be flowing across a diode in the pack that has already tripped and this could cause the diode to overheat and fail if it was sustained at highish amperage.

With 110V DC all brushed powertools also works even better than AC.

Indeed. You can basically turn most of your favorite corded powertools into portable devices with one of these
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1278109#p1278109

 

[sn0wchyld]

I finally have my Ligo in hand


For a battery that Cathay Pacific allows 26 of in hand luggage it sure was hard to get into Western Australia. Apparently we are Ligo phobic over here. Not the first time we are a little backward in moving forward.

This is a direct quote from my friend who received them in Melbourne for me, because Grin could not send them directly to WA (wtf?).

"Hey,

Not having much luck with sending the batteries.

AusPost, CouriersPlease, TNT wont touch it, because they are batteries NOT inside a product.

I just called PackNSend who said.... maybe... but theyd have to see the MSDS.
I asked him who else can courier them, and he said, nobody wants to touch them!" (wtf again?)


Anyways,we finally got them here and the effort was worth every calorie. I love these batteries.

I love everything about them. I don't want to let them out of my sight I like them so much. I like just sitting there watching the green led blink or switching them on and off and watching the leds run. I like smelling them. I like touching them. My wife is concerned for my inordinate affection to these little objects.

Let the Ligo love affair continue xx

even sadder given i recently sent 3L of isopropyl alcohol through the post. you know... only a casual ~25kwh of energy there, sitting in basic plastic bottles. but them 90wh battery packs, sealed up in steel then in epoxy with multiple safety measures along the way..... ooooooooo dangerous!
:lol: :lol:

 

[Danny Mayes]

Ironic isn't it :lol: :lol:

 

[perbear]

I think these battery packs are suitable for our velomobile but I have not found data on charging. As we use regeneration on our bike that is quite important. What is the charge rating of the 36V LiGo, peak and continous?

 

[MrDude_1]

even sadder given i recently sent 3L of isopropyl alcohol through the post. you know... only a casual ~25kwh of energy there, sitting in basic plastic bottles. but them 90wh battery packs, sealed up in steel then in epoxy with multiple safety measures along the way..... ooooooooo dangerous!
:lol: :lol:

If we're counting chemical energy from combustion, the packs probably contain around the same amount as that alcohol... and they can be self igniting... and they dont require external air mixing to ignite.

 

[Blueshift]

I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

1. How many cycles for the life of the batteries?
2. Is it safe to series or parallel the batteries when they are at different parts of their life spans? (if you get a brand new one but have been using another one for over a year or more.
3. Is there any ability to offer a discount for replacing the batteries but using the same case? (cutting the cost of what a new case would cost.


It would be absolutely awesome if the cases were reusable and even better if there was some sorta of compression and lock based system that simply allowed you to pop in new batteries at home without welding. The universe would be in total harmony should that ever exist.

I really like the case idea, it also makes it ultra mobile and I am thinking of all sorts of things i could do with it.

 

[amberwolf]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the whole point of the LiGo packs, the cases are cast around the cells, so there isn't really a way to re-use them; the whole thing is potted as one unit.