Start from gear 1 and go up from there.
Edit: My puny 10.5 kw UF20B can weld 0.15mm Cu + 0.1mm 304 SS to 18650 w/o flux on gear 90 of 99 if that's any help.
Last edited:
-
Hello ES! We could use some help to get us past the finish line on building the new knowledgebase for the forum.
Can you donate? Please see our fundraising page. Thank you!
Pure nickel vs nickel plated & copper sheet?
- Thread starter markglos
- Start date
Edit: My puny 10.5 kw UF20B can weld 0.15mm Cu + 0.1mm 304 SS to 18650 w/o flux on gear 90 of 99 if that's any help.
Can you define 0.1mm weld points? Is that thickness or diameter? You went from mm to microns which I am not as familiar with. I had to look it up: 35 microns is 0.035 mm. Typo?
Look at the Cu/SS sandwich that I just peeled off! It picked up a lot of the solder from the cell! This suggests that if you put a layer of solder on the Cu first, you can spot weld and solder in one operation, w/o worry of heat damage of soldering to the cell.
Last edited:
braunschweiger
New-ish here
with kweld for me it was 90J when using the flux or 95J without.
BlueSwordM
Regular
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 573
That's the funny thing. It actually doesn't work at lower strength.
It's clear I need much higher strength, but I'll test that out.
Yesterday, I tested 002/999 to 205/999, and 205 seemed to work, except I managed to actually vaporize the steel and on the 2nd weld, I obviously slipped and nuked the cell casing.
Does it spark at lower strength? What are your other settings?
Last edited:
BlueSwordM
Regular
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 573
I wonder what's different with the P60F! I find 304 SS does not stick to the probes at all (on my UF20B) compared to pure Ni, which sticks more!
Just tried it. You can see the solder transfer from the tinned Cu to the cell. @sternwake you may want to experiment with this and maybe add this to the current carrying capacity tests that @BatteryMooch was going to do?
BlueSwordM
Regular
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 573
The P60F has higher voltage. 9V vs 6V, and also almost double the current of the UF20B.
Thank god I didn't get the P90C, as I would have probably nuked my whole room as well lmao.
BlueSwordM
Regular
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 573
True. Anyway, I'll try again this evening.
It's just annoying that there isn't a lot of documentation on this product IMO.
Nix Liou
Regular
The effect of the gears definitely doesn't seem linear to me, maybe just because of how the welding itself works.
He's using gear 5 on P60F here.
DIY500AMP is using P60F on 0.4mm copper + 0.1mm SS + flux, gear 900
Maybe you can extrapolate settings for thinner copper?
The amount of downward pressure on electrodes, and the tip shape, play a pretty big role, and make any comparisons as to the 'gear' level required for User A compared to user B, difficult.
When the welder has an excess of power then more downward pressure is not going to risk the weld not welding, but with the underpowered welders using too much pressure can lead to inconsistent weaker welds.
When I got my P20B I did not have a lot of test cells, and the cells I did have were quickly dremelled free of their nickel plating, which affects all subsequent welds.
I used a razor knife blade, the trapezoidal shaped ones, and started out low and increased gears by 25 until the welds started sticking. Only one weld sticks at first, and one can see the result on the underside of the blade.
Keep increasing gear until both welds are the same size on top and below.
The Bells and whistles like double and triple pulses, preheating and the 'intermittent' the delay between preheating and the first weld pulse are distractions at this stage.
Set it to single pulse, No preheating, and worry only about the Gear.
When you get both welds to look the same size and shape on both sides of the razor blade, then try those settings on an actual cell. If the welds are strong, tearing the strips of copper/ nickel, then one might be able to use less power. Go down in increments of 20 of the 999 gear welders until one weld is obviously much better than the other and then go back up.
Be mindful to use the same downward pressure each practice weld, equal on both electrodes too. if you are resting your elbows on the table, always rest your elbows on the table.
Once you narrowed in on the gear needed, then one can play with preheating and intermittent double/ triple pulse and interval, see if they can lower the gear further and still get strong welds.
The electrode tips will get progressively wider and flatter and this changes the power required. more power is needed as they get fatter, but if one is holding them on a wide V, then those sharp corners of the tips can concentrate the force into a smaller area.
I try and hold my electrodes as close to vertical as I can get them and hold them a consistent distance apart every time. I do this for attempting to achieve consistency rather than any perceived result.
With enough consistency and practice, one can feel how hard the welder is hitting during the pulse(s) and how the electrodes slightly sink into the strips.
After a certain number of welds it starts feeling a bit different and then I clean and shape the tips. I've been using an Arkansas sharpening stone, dry and will take it to the sink and wash it when it turns copper colored.
If one punctures the copper completely, then there is a chance of Steel welding itself to the electrode tip.
If this steel is not removed then one might think their welder has broken as it might not even register.
Even the red diamond file struggled with removing the steel when this happened to me.
This primarily happened on a weird 18650 can when I was trying to weld 0.2mm copper no sandwich and no flux and blew a hole right through the copper and into the cell.
I am really well dialed in on 0.2mm copper now, using 0.1mm stainless and flux. Gear 385 double pulse, 0.15ms preheating, 04ms 'intermittent', and 0.2 seconds interval( between weld pulses) AwithZ p20B welder,14.6kw.
Note that this interval setting is not on the main menu page where it should be, in my opinion.
I always use the pedal to trigger, and am very deliberate with the motion. Stab and quick release.
There have been reports of extra unintended weld pulses, and I have experienced a few myself, but am 90% sure my foot was still half way on the pedal. There was no negative consequence to the weld when this occurred, but maybe there would be on different thickness materials. I don't know.
Just be very deliberate with the pedal if using in in manual mode.
When the welder has an excess of power then more downward pressure is not going to risk the weld not welding, but with the underpowered welders using too much pressure can lead to inconsistent weaker welds.
When I got my P20B I did not have a lot of test cells, and the cells I did have were quickly dremelled free of their nickel plating, which affects all subsequent welds.
I used a razor knife blade, the trapezoidal shaped ones, and started out low and increased gears by 25 until the welds started sticking. Only one weld sticks at first, and one can see the result on the underside of the blade.
Keep increasing gear until both welds are the same size on top and below.
The Bells and whistles like double and triple pulses, preheating and the 'intermittent' the delay between preheating and the first weld pulse are distractions at this stage.
Set it to single pulse, No preheating, and worry only about the Gear.
When you get both welds to look the same size and shape on both sides of the razor blade, then try those settings on an actual cell. If the welds are strong, tearing the strips of copper/ nickel, then one might be able to use less power. Go down in increments of 20 of the 999 gear welders until one weld is obviously much better than the other and then go back up.
Be mindful to use the same downward pressure each practice weld, equal on both electrodes too. if you are resting your elbows on the table, always rest your elbows on the table.
Once you narrowed in on the gear needed, then one can play with preheating and intermittent double/ triple pulse and interval, see if they can lower the gear further and still get strong welds.
The electrode tips will get progressively wider and flatter and this changes the power required. more power is needed as they get fatter, but if one is holding them on a wide V, then those sharp corners of the tips can concentrate the force into a smaller area.
I try and hold my electrodes as close to vertical as I can get them and hold them a consistent distance apart every time. I do this for attempting to achieve consistency rather than any perceived result.
With enough consistency and practice, one can feel how hard the welder is hitting during the pulse(s) and how the electrodes slightly sink into the strips.
After a certain number of welds it starts feeling a bit different and then I clean and shape the tips. I've been using an Arkansas sharpening stone, dry and will take it to the sink and wash it when it turns copper colored.
If one punctures the copper completely, then there is a chance of Steel welding itself to the electrode tip.
If this steel is not removed then one might think their welder has broken as it might not even register.
Even the red diamond file struggled with removing the steel when this happened to me.
This primarily happened on a weird 18650 can when I was trying to weld 0.2mm copper no sandwich and no flux and blew a hole right through the copper and into the cell.
I am really well dialed in on 0.2mm copper now, using 0.1mm stainless and flux. Gear 385 double pulse, 0.15ms preheating, 04ms 'intermittent', and 0.2 seconds interval( between weld pulses) AwithZ p20B welder,14.6kw.
Note that this interval setting is not on the main menu page where it should be, in my opinion.
I always use the pedal to trigger, and am very deliberate with the motion. Stab and quick release.
There have been reports of extra unintended weld pulses, and I have experienced a few myself, but am 90% sure my foot was still half way on the pedal. There was no negative consequence to the weld when this occurred, but maybe there would be on different thickness materials. I don't know.
Just be very deliberate with the pedal if using in in manual mode.
Nix Liou
Regular
Yes, using the pedal helps a lot with being consistent vs "auto" settings. I like to place the needles, turn my head to the side, and hit the pedal. I have a pretty smooth cadence with that after just a little practice. I usually do 3 or 4 test welds per strip, and then peel the strip off and judge weld strength by how much tears off. Each cell lets you get 6-8 fresh test welds in that way, and I just use cheap 21700 cells for that.
the needle shape definitely is important, mostly how much contact area there is. You need more force for consistent pressure with a wider tip, etc. The nicest part of welding the thinner weld points on the bus bars I use is that it hardly erodes the tips at all. I keep a red scotch brite pad with me and just poliah off the oxide every 50 or so welds. For thicker materials I find myself using a file to reshape the tips regularly and it really slows down the process.
I went through a set of tips just practicing with thicker copper, especially because even one failed weld can blow a divot into the tips. I prefer using enough power so I can apply plenty of pressure. Bad contact due to not enough pressure is one way to destroy welding tips.
I've done about 2000 welds of the 0.1mm Cu/Ni composite without the tips getting noticeably worn after I replaced them.
the needle shape definitely is important, mostly how much contact area there is. You need more force for consistent pressure with a wider tip, etc. The nicest part of welding the thinner weld points on the bus bars I use is that it hardly erodes the tips at all. I keep a red scotch brite pad with me and just poliah off the oxide every 50 or so welds. For thicker materials I find myself using a file to reshape the tips regularly and it really slows down the process.
I went through a set of tips just practicing with thicker copper, especially because even one failed weld can blow a divot into the tips. I prefer using enough power so I can apply plenty of pressure. Bad contact due to not enough pressure is one way to destroy welding tips.
I've done about 2000 welds of the 0.1mm Cu/Ni composite without the tips getting noticeably worn after I replaced them.
My first spot welding job on 21700 cells 10S2P.
AWithZ UF20B performed amazingly well on 0.20mm Cu, 0.10mm 304 SS. Every weld felt good and consistent. No probe sticking! Need to order some Silicone wire to finish.
AWithZ UF20B performed amazingly well on 0.20mm Cu, 0.10mm 304 SS. Every weld felt good and consistent. No probe sticking! Need to order some Silicone wire to finish.
Last edited:
onehundredballs
New here
Hi, did you use flux?
No, did not need it for solid welds.
onehundredballs
New here
Appreciate the response, will be ordering a UF20B based on your previous help. Do you have any other setting suggestions for 0.15 Cu and 0.1 stainless in addition to the above 0.2?
For 0.15mm Cu and 0.1mm 304 SS, use lower gears than what works well for 0.20mm Cu. There are lot's of variables that can affect outcomes. Best to do lot's of test welds and experiment with the settings to get the feel and gain experience.
I was not able to make consistent good welds with 0.30mm Cu and 0.1mm 304 SS on 18650 even with flux on my UF20B. Consider a more powerful unit if you need to weld 0.30mm Cu and thicker.
