QSMOTOR,0.5-12kW Electric Hub Motor & Mid Drive Motor Manufacture China

[macribs]

Vito,

Sorry, I overlooked you answer to me. But today I saw your answer on top of this page.
Thx for answering my questions.


SJ

 

[flathill]

Now, new 205 50H 3000W spoke hub motor is ready, the diameter of motor is 244mm.
For 273 40H 3000W spoke hub motor (diameter 317mm), we're making sample to test, which estimated to be ready next week.
If any news, I will keep it post in ES.

For details, please refer to attached "New 205 50H 3000W Spoke QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC" & "273 40H 4000W Spoke QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC".
Btw., 273 40H 4000W motor is better for sure if the axle flat could be 12mm.

Best Regards

What is the estimated weight of the 273 40H motor? Can the 12mm flat version axle flat really handle all that torque the large 273mm hub motors make? This motor was originally designed for scooters not ebike so will cutting the axles flats down to 12mm compromise safety? I know your axles are made of high quality steel than other suppliers, but do you actually do load testing on the axles in both direction (to simulate regen braking)? If so how wide are the clamps (simulating a dropout) used during the test to hold the axle in place?

Thanks

 

[gensem]

Am I wrong or if the steel is heat treated even a 10mm axle should handle the extra torque?

 

[QSMOTOR]

The new pages claim 244mm for both: http://qsmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/60294635224-801642986/QS_8000W_273_50H_E_bike_Spoke_Extra_V3_Type_Hub_Motor.html

The datasheets are a bit off, though, as above, the measurements are the same even for the 8kW version & various other inconsistencies...
Let's give them a while to edit in the details into what looks to be WIP.

Vito: Thank you for your kindly understanding.
We have different division on uploading product on new Aliababa webiste .
http://qsmotor.en.alibaba.com/
I found many mistake on discription, we will have them corrected asap.
Once again, thank you for your support!

Best Regards

 

[QSMOTOR]

Hi Cherry/Vito,
What's the maximum erpm on these APT controllers? Same as the Sabvoton?

Hi, this is Cherry.

For APT96600, the limited current is 200A, and max. phase current is 600A, higher than Sabvoton controller 95150, limited current 150A, max. phase current 300A

 

[QSMOTOR]

Vito,

I sent some enquires through alibaba but have not received any form of reply yet. Are you guys busy on hand?

Hello Zan Deng,

I think our hub motor don't fit your application, please check details by email.

Best Regards

 

[marcexec]

Hi Cherry/Vito,
What's the maximum erpm on these APT controllers? Same as the Sabvoton?

Hi, this is Cherry.

For APT96600, the limited current is 200A, and max. phase current is 600A, higher than Sabvoton controller 95150, limited current 150A, max. phase current 300A

Hi Cherry,
this is not what I asked - see http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/ERPM for a quick explanation that I threw together on the Wiki.
I'm obviously considering the controllers with RC-type outrunners.

 

[flathill]

Am I wrong or if the steel is heat treated even a 10mm axle should handle the extra torque?

You are talking more than 300 Newton-meters of torque with the 273 series.

Here is a simple test but does not simulated repeated cycling, especially with regen

Don't really trust data sheets and simple shear force calcs. you need to test to failure with a hard edge dropout applying the force in one direction and then the other to simulate repeated accel and regen. The original engineer spec'd the axle for a scooter and then you go and cut it down to 12mm flats for use with bicycle dropouts without testing? If we need to mod our frames for larger dropouts so be it, but don't sell something that is not safe to use. There have already been reports of cromotors with twisted axles and then make much less torque than a 273 motor, but the cromotor design is pretty bad (see below), so may a well designed 12mm axle could handle more torque

[youtube]A0OR6ZTuH-o[/youtube]

youtube: A0OR6ZTuH-o (embed stop showing)

cromotor with twised axle (horrible design as you can they cut too much meat to make way for the wires)

 

[Doctorbass]

Did it happened with the use of one or two T-A ??

Doc

 

[gensem]

I see.... so the problem isnt the 12mm flats its the way they route the phase wires. A 10mm solid axle should handle the torque just fine if they dont grind half of it.

 

[QSMOTOR]

Hi Cherry/Vito,
What's the maximum erpm on these APT controllers? Same as the Sabvoton?

Hi, this is Cherry.

For APT96600, the limited current is 200A, and max. phase current is 600A, higher than Sabvoton controller 95150, limited current 150A, max. phase current 300A

Hi Cherry,
this is not what I asked - see http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/ERPM for a quick explanation that I threw together on the Wiki.
I'm obviously considering the controllers with RC-type outrunners.

Hi, sorry for my late reply. Oh, I see. The max. Erpm for Sabvton controller is 30000. For APT controller, no problem for Erpm <= 40000.

 

[marcexec]

Thanks, Cherry.
So unfortunately not an option for the likes of C80100, but everything else should be fine.

 

[macribs]

What version of the QS 205 v3 extra 50H motor have you guys ordered? I am not sure if I should order 3T or 5T version. As the copper fill seems to be the same. Motor will go in motorcycle wheel 17 or 19".

What would be great match controller for this motor? I was gonna use the adaptto max-e but due to cashflow problems I must look for cheaper alternatives. Anyone tested those new Kelly FOC controllers?

I am aiming for peak performance >10 kw - 15 kw. What controllers will handle that?

 

[macribs]

Are the new version of the 205 H50 v3 extra motor ready now? I pm'ed an order.

 

[QSMOTOR]

Are the new version of the 205 H50 v3 extra motor ready now? I pm'ed an order.

Hello Macribs, thank you for pm the order.
Yes, the new motor are ready now, I am arrange all some data sheets.
Will get back to you tomorrow.

Best Regards

 

[macribs]

Look forward to

 

[ridethelightning]

gotta stop this motor habit! :lol:

im getting cravings to try the 273mm version...

 

[macribs]

gotta stop this motor habit! :lol:

im getting cravings to try the 273mm version...

Go fir it, bet you it has crazy power for e-bikes. Accelerate like a Tesla

 

[QSMOTOR]

Thank you for your patience on QS 273 40H 4000W Spoke Motor, here is it below.
QS 4000W 273 (40H) E-bike Spoke Extra/V3 Type Hub Motor Link on Alibaba.
http://qsmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/60278428315-801642986/QS_4000W_273_40H_E_bike_Spoke_Extra_V3_Type_Hub_Motor.html

Price: USD 435.0/piece for ES member only.
There is only 10 set motor parts for first batch.

Dropouts 152mm (also suit for 150mm dropouts fork)
Axle Flat 12mm
Disc Brake PCD6X44mm
English Thread not available, Metric Thread available
Phase Wire 10mm2
Spoke Hole OD 4.2mm
Thread Length 14mm
Net Weight 18.1kg (with metric freewheel)
Winding: 65X3T-, 48V 807RPM, 16.8kV.

The copper wire cross section is 13.3mm2, we suggest to choose 530.4A phase current.
Payment terims: T/T, Money Gram,Western Union 100% deposit in advance.
Valid time: 30 days          
Producing Time: Producing Time: 15-16 working days after receiving payment.
If you need controller, brake disc and freewheel, we could try to provide it.
PS. It's a pity that we could not provide wheel set with spoke for the moment, but we're trying. Please leave a message which rim (e.g. e-bike 24*2.125 moped 17*1.85) do you prefer, thank you!

For more infomation about SPEC & Quotation.
Please refer to attachment "New 273 40H 4000W QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC".
View attachment New 273 40H 4000W QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC.pdf








Picture
View attachment 18View attachment 15View attachment 13View attachment 10View attachment 8

Best Regards

 

[QSMOTOR]

Dear all,

Recently we did some update for our 3000w 205 50H V3 spoke hub motor to improve its waterproof
1. QS make dual holes for axle glue instead of single hole which make axle glue fill up with phase wires
2. Add heat shrink tubing to lengthen PVC silicone fiberglass sleeving for better waterproof
3. QS change better side cover glue and implement glue automatically (instead by hand)

More details about waterproof, pls see this link: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972&start=1100#p1385746

We have post QS 205 50H V3 Hub Motor for a long time, and thank you so much for your guys support.
The hub motor is more and more popular throughout the world.
I would like to do some modification of the thread for better understanding.

QS / Quan Shun, 205/50H V3 "Extra Type"
The QS motor company has also decided to begin selling their E-motorcycle hubs with axles that that have been modified to fit a bicycle.
Their motor phase wires are thicker than the other motors listed, and their axle design is stronger.
The stator width is 50mm, but also…the stator-teeth slots are deeper for more copper-fill, and all of this adds up to a motor that can take more watts.

Said by "spinning magnets" in electricbike.com. https://www.electricbike.com/large-hot-rod-hubmotors/

QS 3000W 205 50H V2 Motor is a robust, high power, high torque motor.
Suitable for all who want to ride fast. It can handle a lot of current and will nto overheat that easily.
It can withstand up to 10kW short boust of power. It is one of the most popular motors on the market and is also found as modified version (for ex. Cromtor etc.).

Said by "QULBIX" in their official website. http://www.qulbix.com/new-in-2016
QS 205 50H V2 Motor with QULBIX Q76R Frame (New)
View attachment 18

Firstly, here is spec & price below.
SPEC & Price
QS 3000W 205 50H V3 E-bike Direct Drive Spoke Hub Motor (Black New Version)
1. BLDC Permanent Magnet Outer Rotor Direct Drive Spoke Hub Motor
2. Power: 50mm magnet height, 16 pole paris, 3000W rated.
36 X Spoke Hole OD 4.2mm or Dual Spoke 3.4 & 4.2mm.
3. Speed: Winding 24*5T, 650RPM at 72V, equal to 9.03kV (optional)
4. Designed to match with E-bike Disc brakes PCD6*44mm (not include Brake Disc),
14mm English thread for single-speed Freewheel (not include freewheel), drop-outs/Rear Bridge Clamping Width (150mm)
5. Two Halls with waterproof connectos(One for spare, in case of damage) , 10mm² Phase wire (not include insulation)
6. Thermic Probe: KTY 83/122 (optional)
7. Waterproof grade: IP54
8. Efficiency: 90.8%
9. Stronger configuration--high grade magnet, more cooper, bear more Ampere.
10. 10mm Axle flats
Net Weight: 12.75kg, Gross Weight 14.5kg (with single-speed freewheel, in carton package)
Package: 34cmX34cmX33cm

Price:
USD 266/piece base on 1-2pcs samples, for ES member only.
USD 264/piece (base on 3-4pcs)
USD 261/piece (base on 5~9pcs)
USD 257/piece (base on 10~19pcs)
Payment term: Generally, we perefer T/T, Money Gram,Western Union 100% in advance (for sample). Meanwhile, we could also accpet paypal.
There will be extra cost for transaction fee: Total cost*4.4%+0.3 Withdraw fee: USD 35.0 (We could bear USD 31.5, and charge USD 3.5 for you).
Valid time: 30 days
Producing Time:
For 24X5T Widing (Standard axle), there are 10pcs motors in store, the lead time could be 1-2 working days after receiving payment.
For other winding, 10-12 working days after receiving payment(6 working days per week).

You also can place order on our Amazon store: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CQVG8CG

For fast cooperation, We suggest to make the payment of the goods directly/in advance (no need to contact with us for normal orders),
and mark what you need after payment. For the delivery cost, it could be calculated accordingly and paid before delivery.
For the total cost, please refer to attachment (with our Paypal account, Sia@tzquanshun.com).
View attachment QSMOTOR PI Template for Calculation Total Cost- 2016.05.14.xls
PS. Please advise your detailed Recipient Information after payment, and if there is any request for customs clearance purpose.

Btw., we are going to develop 205 E-bike Hub Motor, 135mm dropouts (more than 205 28H).
Do you have any suggestion on the magnet height, power, speed, voltage, suitable freewheels?

For windings.
View attachment 16
For Drawing.
Standard Drawing
View attachment QS 205 50H Spoke Hub Motor 150mm Dropouts New Drawing 2015.07.02.pdf
QS support Customized, the axle could be customized accordingly (the cost and delivery time will increase).
For example,

Customized axle, 155mm dropout, USD 8.0/piece more, take 7-10 days more for customized axle.

Temp Sensor Options: KTY84/130, KTY83/122, 10K@25C NTC(model MF58-103F3950)
Attached SPEC of KTY83/122, View attachment KTY83-122 Data.pdf
Note: QS Motor could work 120 ℃ in half an hour without damage.
Conservative Suggestion (Setting of Controller)
When it's 130 ℃ inside of motor (in 30s), the current should be limited 50%.
When it's 150 ℃, the controller shut down.
When it drop down to 110℃, the controller work again.

For more infomation, please refer to attachment "New 205 50H 3000W Spoke QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC".
View attachment New 205 50H 3000W Spoke QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC.pdf

Picture
View attachment 25
Here is more pictures inside of the motor.

Magnet Height 50mm

Alxe Flat 10mm

Bearing 6006RS 6004RS & Side Cover
Extra Side Cover is available, it's USD 12.0/set(Include 2pcs side covers, 2pcs bearing and oil seal)
View attachment 21
Hall Sensor Honeywell & Temp Sensor KTY83/122
PS. We could offer extra Hall Sensor if wanted

Comparison QS V3 (Old Version) with Cromotor, MXUS by Customer (thank to ridethelightning)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972&start=100#p1046512

Performance & Testing
Here is two performance curve/test report, with SVMC72150 controller.
For 200A Phase current, EFF 90.9%, Peak Torque 172.6N.m
For 350A Phase current, EFF 91.5%, peak Torque 179.5N.m, max output 7227W.
View attachment 11View attachment 205 50H 24x5 350APhase Current SVMC721502016051.pdf
If you have more information or suggestions about test data, please feel free to contact with us.
PS. I plan to set about 190A, 72V & 96V to test peak output of the motor.

100V 200A Power Supply, 300N.m Dyno

Temp Sensor of Multiplex Temperature Tester, same position as thermistor KTY83/122

Sabvoton controller APP could display precise temp of motor as the Multiplex Temperature Tester.

Phase Current 100A, Last 36s, about 90N.m, the temp go to 150℃.

Phase Current 150A, Last 20s, the temp go to 180 ℃, and there is smoke.

Conclusion.
For phase current, 100A 36s, 150A 20s, 220-240A, 2s.
After Chinese New Year, we will keep on testing 24X5T winding motor when come back to work.
E.g. Input 72V 150A or even 200A battery current...
More testing on V2 18*4T Winding...

Suggestion.
For QS 3000W 205 50H V3 Spoke Hub Motor, 24X5T Winding.
Phase current, we suggest to set 200A (10s), 220-240A (1-2s).
For battery current, it could be 150A (72V).

For other winding motor, we suggest to set max phase current 40 Time of Wire cross-sectional area (10s).
E.g. 24X5T winding, the wire cross-sectional area is 24X0.204=4.896mm²
Peak Phase Current 4.896*40=195.84A.

Electric Motor Kits
Controller
Most Customer choose Adaptto MAX-E controller, but I have little understanding of the controller.
Some customer ask me about the correct setting, I will try my best to get it.
Meanwhile, could you please help me out and advise some information on this?

Personally, I prefer Sabvoton Sine Wave Controller, SVMC72150.
Item: Sabvoton SVMC72150 3kW-4kW Sine Wave Brushless Motor Controller(programmable)
Price: USD 238.0/piece for ES member only (for samples).
1. Brand: Sabvoton
2. Power Supply: 72V(36V-98V), Limited Batteryt Curent: 150A, Max Phase Current: 350A.
3. Product Size: 249mmX146mmX65mm
4. Net Weight: 2.2kg
5. Including: 1pc controller+1pc USB Cable+ 1pc Function Harness
6. Essential Function: Hall, Throttle, Electric Lock, Brake for high level.
7. Addtional Function:
a. 0-5V variable regen brake signal (command regen current),
b. Temp Sensor (Suit for KTY83/122),
c. Three Speed Switch (High/Balance/Low).
d. Hall Speedometer.
Item: Bluetooth for Sabvoton Controller (optional)
Price: USD 25.0/piece for ES member only (for samples).
PS. The Blue Tooth is not very stable, it's under updating, estimated to be updated on July, 2016.

For more information, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972&p=1130438#p1130438
Btw., The controller could be unlock to be 200A battery (no warranty, risk on customer).

Speedometer
The most popular one is CYCLE ANALYST V3, we have got 2pcs CA samples.
And ask Sabvoton to modify inside of controller to fit with the speedometer (add shunt and change connectors).
Hopefully, we could provide motor, controller, CA3 as whole kits in near future.


Freewheel
PHEASANT Brand Freewheel, USD 7.0/piece
1. Single speed 1/2*3/32*16T or 18T
2. Black
3. English System Thread, Suit for QS Motor (English thread)

YuQiu Three Speed Freewheel, $4.0/piece
1. 16T 19T & 22T
2. Golden
3. English System Thread Suit for New QS Motor


Front & Rear Wheel RIM set
We are able to lace the spokes in 19X1.6" front and rear wheel in 1X2 cross pattern(for better customer service).
For other wheel rims, it's not avaiable for the moment, we will update in thread if any news.

Item: 19"X1.6" 1X2 Cross Pattern Rear Wheel Set
19"X1.6" Black moped aluminium wheel rim
36X10G Spoke , silver color (Iron with zinc coat)
QS 3000W 205 50H Hub Motor, 36 holes, 150mm dropouts, black
For Rear Rim, Nipples, Spoke, $53.9 For Lacing & Truing, $25.0
Total cost $78.9

Item: 19"X1.6" 1X4 Cross Pattern Front Wheel Set
19"*1.6" black moped aluminium wheel rim
32X10G Spoke (Iron with zinc coat).
Front Hub 32 holes, M20 diameter, 110mm dropouts, black
For Front Rim, Nipples, Spoke & Hub, $ 84.0 For Lacing & Truing, $ 25.0
Total Cost $ 109.0
PS. We enlarge the spoke hole of front hub to fit with 10G spoke.
For more information, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972&p=1102374#p1102374

frock clamp for assemble hub motor by hand, USD 31.5/set


Throttle
Wuxing Thumb Throttle, USD 6.0/set
High Quality, Wire length 500mm


Applications for reference
QULBIX http://www.qulbix.com/

VECTOR http://www.vectorebike.com/

East GEM factory http://www.eastgem.net/

Others


More details, pls see this link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CWMW9XJ

If any question, please feel free to contact with us.

Best Regards

 

[QSMOTOR]

For E-bike
205 E-bike Spoke Motor 500W-800W PCD6*44mm 135mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel) 150mm drop-out (for 7-speed freewheel).
205 E-bike Spoke Motor 1000W-3000W PCD6*44mm 150mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel)
273 E-bike Spoke Motor 1500W-4000W PCD6*44mm 152mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel)
For E-motorcycle
205 E-motorcycle Spoke Motor 1000W-3000W PCD3*80mm 200mm Drop-outs
273 E-motorcycle Spoke Motor 3000W-8000W PCD3*80mm 200mm Drop-outs
Attached "QS E-Bike E-Motorcycle Spoke Hub Motor List".

Here is QS 205 28H 500W Spoke Motor in details.
QS 500W 205 (28H) E-bike Spoke Normal/V1 Type Hub Motor Link on Alibaba.
http://qsmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/60288067257-801642985/QS_500W_205_28H_E_bike_Spoke_Normal_V1_Type_Hub_Motor.html

Picture
Dropouts 135mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel) 150mm drop-out (for 7-speed freewheel).
Axle Flat 10mm
Disc Brake PCD6X44mm
English Thread available, Metric Thread not available
Spoke Hole OD 4.2mm & 3.4mm
Thread Length 14mm
Gross Weight 8.3kg (with freewheel)
View attachment 10View attachment 9

Price: USD 98.0/piece for ES member only.
Payment terims: T/T, Money Gram,Western Union 100% deposit in advance.
Valid time: 30 days
Producing Time: Producing Time: 15-16 working days after receiving payment.
If you need controller, brake disc and freewheel, we could try to provide it.
PS. It's a pity that we could not provide wheel set with spoke for the moment, but we're trying. Please leave a message which rim (e.g. e-bike 24*2.125 moped 17*1.85) do you prefer, thank you!

For more infomation about SPEC & Quotation (include small sine wave controller 12-fet).
Please refer to attachment "205 28H 500W QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC".]View attachment 205 28H 500W QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC.pdf

Application
View attachment 3

Best Regards

 

[litespeed]

I was totally looking forward to this motor but not sure about putting a 40 lb motor on the back of my bike. That is a lot of weight and then to add the weight of a motor rim, 10g spokes and a big tire and you'd easily be in the 52 lbs category in no time. I had no idea I'd be adding 20 lbs to the back of my bike over the 20 lbs I had on there with the MXUS. I guess I could just add 10 lbs going to the 205 but then wonder if that is enough over the MXUS to warrant the change.

There is so much compromise with hub motors sometimes it hurts my head trying to figure the what seams like "quantum physics" of what best fits me scenario!

I'm off to think some more!

Tom

For E-bike
205 E-bike Spoke Motor 500W-800W PCD6*44mm 135mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel) 150mm drop-out (for 7-speed freewheel).
205 E-bike Spoke Motor 1000W-3000W PCD6*44mm 150mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel)
273 E-bike Spoke Motor 1500W-4000W PCD6*44mm 152mm Drop-outs(for single-speed freewheel)
For E-motorcycle
205 E-motorcycle Spoke Motor 1000W-3000W PCD3*80mm 200mm Drop-outs
273 E-motorcycle Spoke Motor 3000W-8000W PCD3*80mm 200mm Drop-outs
Attached "QS E-Bike E-Motorcycle Spoke Hub Motor List".

Thank you for your patience on QS 273 40H 4000W Spoke Motor, here is it below.
QS 4000W 273 (40H) E-bike Spoke Extra/V3 Type Hub Motor Link on Alibaba.
http://qsmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/60278428315-801642986/QS_4000W_273_40H_E_bike_Spoke_Extra_V3_Type_Hub_Motor.html

Picture (uploading on Dropbox now...)
Dropouts 152mm (also suit for 150mm dropouts fork)

Axle Flat 12mm

Disc Brake PCD6X44mm

English Thread not available, Metric Thread available

Phase Wire OD 5.63mm

Spoke Hole OD 4.2mm

Thread Length 14mm

Net Weight 18.1kg (with metric freewheel)

Price: USD 435.0/piece for ES member only.
There is only 10 set motor parts for first batch.
Payment terims: T/T, Money Gram,Western Union 100% deposit in advance.
Valid time: 30 days          
Producing Time: Producing Time: 15-16 working days after receiving payment.
If you need controller, brake disc and freewheel, we could try to provide it.
PS. It's a pity that we could not provide wheel set with spoke for the moment, but we're trying. Please leave a message which rim (e.g. e-bike 24*2.125 moped 17*1.85) do you prefer, thank you!

For more infomation about SPEC & Quotation.
Please refer to attachment "New 273 40H 4000W QSMOTOR Quotation & SPEC".

Best Regards

 

[macribs]

I was totally looking forward to this motor but not sure about putting a 40 lb motor on the back of my bike. That is a lot of weight and then to add the weight of a motor rim, 10g spokes and a big tire and you'd easily be in the 52 lbs category in no time. I had no idea I'd be adding 20 lbs to the back of my bike over the 20 lbs I had on there with the MXUS. I guess I could just add 10 lbs going to the 205 but then wonder if that is enough over the MXUS to warrant the change.

There is so much compromise with hub motors sometimes it hurts my head trying to figure the what seams like "quantum physics" of what best fits me scenario!

I'm off to think some more!

Tom

Is there any way you could do a mid drive? If you could get the weight out of the hub it would mean a lot. If you could do a mid drive like like this then the weight would not affect the handling so much.

 

[Alan B]

If you are going to do a mid-drive then select a lighter, higher RPM motor for overall weight reduction.

 

[litespeed]

I probably need to take a step back and really think about what I'm looking for this bike to do for me. Really think about the power requirements I'm looking for to see what I can live with.

Thanks for the ideas.

Tom